ETA on Advanced Class change?

[ShadowHvo]

When you pick vanguard or commando, you gain unique abilities that the other one cant, when you pick retribution you gain unique abilities that prot and holy cant get same with picking holy or prot, they both gain unique abilities the others cant. Explain the difference?

 

When I pick either Combat Medic, Gunnery or Assault specialist I get unique abilities that the others one can't get. The exact same thing with WoW, or rather the old WoW since they changed their whole talent system.

 

http://commandobuilds.com/images/gunnery1.JPG SW:TOR talent tree.

http://img3.mmo.mmo4arab.com/wow/20120508/ui/talent_tree_old.jpg Old WoW talent tree.

 

What you get

- Passive upgrades.

- New Abilities.

 

It's exactly the same, like it or not. The only reason for you to cry out loud right now, yelling for a class change is because Advanced Class is not just called your Class and not chosen at the character creation screen. I ensure you, if you could chose your Advanced Class right from the begining, you wouldn't be crying out loud right now.

Edited June 18, 2013 by ShadowHvo

[ShadowHvo]

So they find a new tank, you lose a guild, your the affected one.

 

I'm the one kicking, not the one being kicked.

[TridusSWTOR]

I'm the one kicking, not the one being kicked.

 

Then it's on him, it's his choice. Stop telling others how to play their characters when you don't even pay their sub!

[PeterTLJr]

When I pick either Combat Medic, Gunnery or Assault specialist I get unique abilities that the others one can't get. The exact same thing with WoW, or rather the old WoW since they changed they whole talent system.

 

http://commandobuilds.com/images/gunnery1.JPG SW:TOR talent tree.

http://img3.mmo.mmo4arab.com/wow/20120508/ui/talent_tree_old.jpg Old WoW talent tree.

 

What you get

- Passive upgrades.

- New Abilities.

 

It's exactly the same, like it or not. The only reason for you to cry out loud right now, yelling for a class change is because Advanced Class is not just called your Class and not chosen at the character creation screen. I ensure you, if you could chose your Advanced Class right from the begining, you wouldn't be crying out loud right now.

 

You gain skill tree abilities. Not all commandos get those unless they pick that tree. Completely different.

If I pick vanguard, I get vanguard abilities and trooper, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

 

If I pick retribution, I get retribution abilities and paladin abilities, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

[PeterTLJr]

I'm the one kicking, not the one being kicked.

 

So you find a new tank, he loses a guild, hes the one being affected.

[ShadowHvo]

Then it's on him, it's his choice. Stop telling others how to play their characters when you don't even pay their sub!

 

Ofcourse it's his choice. Though, I'm not going to bring a Mara tanking Nightmare Terror from Beyond. And when he joined to become our tank, and then changes to DPS. He is no longer useful to my guild.

[PeterTLJr]

Ofcourse it's his choice. Though, I'm not going to bring a Mara tanking Nightmare Terror from Beyond. And when he joined to become our tank, and then changes to DPS. He is no longer useful to my guild.

 

So he switches ACs, gets booted from the guild, he is the one that is affected by switching ACs.

[ShadowHvo]

So you find a new tank, he loses a guild, hes the one being affected.

 

The guild then still need a new tank, it might take a couple of days for the interviews. It affects the whole guild in such a situation.

 

Remember again, not every guild is a 100+ one.

[PeterTLJr]

The guild then still need a new tank, it might take a couple of days for the interviews. It affects the whole guild in such a situation.

 

Remember again, not every guild is a 100+ one.

 

Thats not his fault that you guys dont have any other tanks. You dont sign a guild contract saying "ill be your tank for ____ long" hes free to do what he wishes, if he wishes to no longer be a tank, he loses his job in the guild and most likely his place in the guild. He is the affected one.

Edited June 18, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[ShadowHvo]

Thats not his fault that you guys dont have any other tanks.

 

Have I said that, no? Good. Your point is simple, that it doesn't affect anyone else beside the person switiching, I just proved you wrong.

[Xeperi]

...so it looks like the main argument isn't whether or not ac switching should be allowed but rather the degree it should be restricted.

 

I am still for ac changing at level 20 for free with a steadily rising xp cost per level after that and a 90 day cooldown. So 1 change at level 20 is free, 90 day cool down. Every level after 20 is a 5% xp charge maxing out at 100% xp charge at level 40. 100% xp charge simply means the character reverts back to level 10. So if you change ac at or after level 40 you are going to be reset back to level 10. That way the more time invested in a character, the steeper the penalty. I think level 20 should be the minimum to be able to change just so you don't have people changing arbitrarily- they will have 10 levels to really make up their mind.

 

EVEN given this fairly conservative and restrictive system I can still see the game being somewhat of a joke up to level 20, and not being 100% legit till level 40. Why? Because people will design toons that are meant purely for leveling until they reach a certain level at which point they will switch out to the ac and spec and gear to the character they actually do want to play.

 

The more liberal the "character change" policy, the worse that kind of situation becomes. A very liberal policy with few restrictions results in a game that isn't really legit because no one is playing the character they really want to play, they are just playing what is needed in a specific situation. It turns mmos into sandbox games. In other words, the more liberal character change policy, the less the things that define a character actually mean. Make classes super flexible in terms of switching everything around at will and classes become meaningless. The more the things that define a character become meaningless the more the characters become meaningless and the more the characters in a mmorpg become meaningless the more the game its self becomes meaningless, begins to lose what defines it and makes it unique.

[PeterTLJr]

Have I said that, no? Good. Your point is simple, that it doesn't affect anyone else beside the person switiching, I just proved you wrong.

 

Thats not his fault that you guys dont have any other tanks. You dont sign a guild contract saying "ill be your tank for ____ long" hes free to do what he wishes, if he wishes to no longer be a tank, he loses his job in the guild and most likely his place in the guild. He is the affected one.

[Nythain]

Ofcourse it's his choice. Though, I'm not going to bring a Mara tanking Nightmare Terror from Beyond. And when he joined to become our tank, and then changes to DPS. He is no longer useful to my guild.

His AC change only affected him... Your choice to kick him affected your guild. With AC changes, who's to say he couldn't just change back to Juggy if/when it was necessary?

[PeterTLJr]

Have I said that, no? Good. Your point is simple, that it doesn't affect anyone else beside the person switiching, I just proved you wrong.

 

You gain skill tree abilities. Not all commandos get those unless they pick that tree. Completely different.

If I pick vanguard, I get vanguard abilities and trooper, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

 

If I pick retribution, I get retribution abilities and paladin abilities, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

 

Is this wrong? Is there any difference?

[PeterTLJr]

...so it looks like the main argument isn't whether or not ac switching should be allowed but rather the degree it should be restricted.

 

I am still for ac changing at level 20 for free with a steadily rising xp cost per level after that and a 90 day cooldown. So 1 change at level 20 is free, 90 day cool down. Every level after 20 is a 5% xp charge maxing out at 100% xp charge at level 40. 100% xp charge simply means the character reverts back to level 10. So if you change ac at or after level 40 you are going to be reset back to level 10. That way the more time invested in a character, the steeper the penalty. I think level 20 should be the minimum to be able to change just so you don't have people changing arbitrarily- they will have 10 levels to really make up their mind.

 

EVEN given this fairly conservative and restrictive system I can still see the game being somewhat of a joke up to level 20, and not being 100% legit till level 40. Why? Because people will design toons that are meant purely for leveling until they reach a certain level at which point they will switch out to the ac and spec and gear to the character they actually do want to play.

 

The more liberal the "character change" policy, the worse that kind of situation becomes. A very liberal policy with few restrictions results in a game that isn't really legit because no one is playing the character they really want to play, they are just playing what is needed in a specific situation. It turns mmos into sandbox games. In other words, the more liberal character change policy, the less the things that define a character actually mean. Make classes super flexible in terms of switching everything around at will and classes become meaningless. The more the things that define a character become meaningless the more the characters become meaningless and the more the characters in a mmorpg become meaningless the more the game its self becomes meaningless, begins to lose what defines it and makes it unique.

 

Being reset back down to level 10 is just flat out stupid. The work that would involve such a thing would be so crazy that it wouldnt pay off because not many people would pay to be reset back down. Switching Acs is no different then switching specs, you still have to learn how to play it.

[Nythain]

I am still for ac changing at level 20 for free with a steadily rising xp cost per level after that and a 90 day cooldown. So 1 change at level 20 is free, 90 day cool down. Every level after 20 is a 5% xp charge maxing out at 100% xp charge at level 40. 100% xp charge simply means the character reverts back to level 10. So if you change ac at or after level 40 you are going to be reset back to level 10. That way the more time invested in a character, the steeper the penalty. I think level 20 should be the minimum to be able to change just so you don't have people changing arbitrarily- they will have 10 levels to really make up their mind.

This sounds fine on paper, but an EXP cost is the worst way to handle the situation, especially one capable of level regression. Even compounded by the extreme you proposed. Going from 40 to 10 is more severe than you'd think, because the ability to get back to 40 is greatly hindered due to a complete lack of story and side mission content. This system would cost more subs and players than its worth, especially since there are other methods (cooldowns, large credit costs, and cartel coin costs) that wouldn't be detrimental to the players game enjoyment.

[ShadowHvo]

His AC change only affected him... Your choice to kick him affected your guild. With AC changes, who's to say he couldn't just change back to Juggy if/when it was necessary?

 

In our guild you join depending on your role. You change your roll to something we already have enough of, you're out. Simple as that. People agrees to the rules when they join, and such it is. Do not speak about my guild like you know how it works like. Since you clearly don't.

 

Ofcourse it's different from guild to guild, how they run the show. I'm just giving my cents from my Guilds pov.

[PeterTLJr]

In our guild you join depending on your role. You change your roll to something we already have enough of, you're out. Simple as that. People agrees to the rules when they join, and such it is. Do not speak about my guild like you know how it works like. Since you clearly don't.

 

Ofcourse it's different from guild to guild, how they run the show. I'm just giving my cents from my Guilds pov.

 

Its your choice to remove him, he is affected by his own ac change, not you.

[Nythain]

In our guild you join depending on your role. You change your roll to something we already have enough of, you're out. Simple as that. People agrees to the rules when they join, and such it is. Do not speak about my guild like you know how it works like. Since you clearly don't.

 

Ofcourse it's different from guild to guild, how they run the show. I'm just giving my cents from my Guilds pov.

 

Again, your rules affect your guild... Get a new tank, or multiple tanks... The player is still the only one directly affected by his choice to change. You have the right to run your guild however you want, but it's your rulings that are causing this situation just as much as his action.

 

EDIT: A side question? If the same player decided to role a Mara alt, would his alt be welcome in the guild or immediately denied due to too many Maras already?

Edited June 18, 2013 by Nythain

[ShadowHvo]

You gain skill tree abilities. Not all commandos get those unless they pick that tree. Completely different.

If I pick vanguard, I get vanguard abilities and trooper, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

 

If I pick retribution, I get retribution abilities and paladin abilities, and skill tree abilities for whatever I put my points in.

 

Is this wrong? Is there any difference?

 

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/commando/223/

 

I can see abilities in each of those 3 trees.

[Khevar]

Its your choice to remove him, he is affected by his own ac change, not you.

I have to say, this is a particularly self-centered view of things.

 

As an MMO, people interact with one another. People rely on one another. People contribute to others, or work against others.

 

If you play the game completely solo, on a PvE server, unflagged, and don't ninja area objectives, you're not affecting others. But every time you do a flashpoint, a heroic, an operation, or operate in an area with other players, you DO.

 

I'm not going to try and argue with you against AC changes, as the last many many many pages of posts from you have shown you've made up your mind and nothing is likely to impinge.

 

But it is silly to think that a changing a players advanced class could NEVER affect another player. Most things we do affect other players in some way. To think otherwise is to be unaware of others.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Khevar

[PeterTLJr]

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/commando/223/

 

I can see abilities in each of those 3 trees.

 

Reread the original post, I clearly stated you get skill tree abilities as well.

[ShadowHvo]

Again, your rules affect your guild... Get a new tank, or multiple tanks... The player is still the only one directly affected by his choice to change. You have the right to run your guild however you want, but it's your rulings that are causing this situation just as much as his action.

 

EDIT: A side question? If the same player decided to role a Mara alt, would his alt be welcome in the guild or immediately denied due to too many Maras already?

 

We're a small RP-PvE guild, as of now, we don't have alts in the guild.

[PeterTLJr]

I have to say, this is a particularly self-centered view of things.

 

As an MMO, people interact with one another. People rely on one another. People contribute to others, or work against others.

 

If you play the game completely solo, on a PvE server, unflagged, and don't ninja area objectives, you're not affecting others. But every time you do a flashpoint, a heroic, an operation, or operate in an area with other players, you DO.

 

I'm not going to try and argue with you against AC changes, as the last many many many pages of posts from you have shown you've made up your mind and nothing is likely to impinge.

 

But it is silly to think that a changing a players advanced class could NEVER affect another player. Most things we do affect other players in some way. To think otherwise is to be unaware of others.

 

There is nothing wrong with AC changes, its not class changes, so your right there is most likely nothing you can say to change that.

 

Its an mmo yes, you play with others, when you join a guild and raid with them, thats a mutual benefit, if you want to drop your role from that raid spot, they replace you, you lose your raiding spot, you are the affected one. The guild isnt going to collapse if you switch your AC.

[ShadowHvo]

I have to say, this is a particularly self-centered view of things.

 

As an MMO, people interact with one another. People rely on one another. People contribute to others, or work against others.

 

If you play the game completely solo, on a PvE server, unflagged, and don't ninja area objectives, you're not affecting others. But every time you do a flashpoint, a heroic, an operation, or operate in an area with other players, you DO.

 

I'm not going to try and argue with you against AC changes, as the last many many many pages of posts from you have shown you've made up your mind and nothing is likely to impinge.

 

But it is silly to think that a changing a players advanced class could NEVER affect another player. Most things we do affect other players in some way. To think otherwise is to be unaware of others.

 

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