Annihilation

[HerrManstein]

I am talking about overall DPS, I don't care how much damage an opener does. lol.

 

Ah I see. Well played sir.

[idnewton]

Ah I see. Well played sir.

 

Look, if you really want to know how much my opener does, it does 41k. At the same time, however, it also does only 2.6k damage. Opener is such a vague term, anything can be your opener. Longer openers deal (you guessed it) more damage. Judging a class, spec, skill level, 'knowledge of parsing', etc based on opener damage is simply dumb.

 

As I said, I'm still waiting to see your nice sparkly 2500 parse, or something somewhat impressive

[oofalong]

I am very interested in this debate; let's define opener as 10 GCDs, which seems long. (BTW, this should only increase the likelihood that Annihilation is better.)

 

HerrManstein, you contend that Annihilation will do the same damage as Carnage or Rage in these opening 10 GCDs, right?

 

idnewton has taken the opposite position.

[idnewton]

I am very interested in this debate; let's define opener as 10 GCDs, which seems long. (BTW, this should only increase the likelihood that Annihilation is better.)

 

HerrManstein, you contend that Annihilation will do the same damage as Carnage or Rage in these opening 10 GCDs, right?

 

idnewton has taken the opposite position.

 

Rage I'm not certain about. Carnage (if played right) would beat the living **** out of Annihilation in terms of openers. Definitely in terms of DPS, and possibly in total damage too (because of the alacrity boost). Also, because this is a natural opener and not a setup one, Carnage automatically gains 30 stacks of fury because of it's passive in the tree. Annihilation has to start with none.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Hey, guys. Does Force Scream/Bladestorm have a place in Annihilation/Watchman's priority?

 

If so, where? Thanks again for all of the help.

[idnewton]

Hey, guys. Does Force Scream/Bladestorm have a place in Annihilation/Watchman's priority?

 

If so, where? Thanks again for all of the help.

 

Not one bit. It's a filler for Rage and a prime ability for Carnage but it is completely unused in Annihilation.

[Hellhorn]

Not one bit. It's a filler for Rage and a prime ability for Carnage but it is completely unused in Annihilation.

 

Not exactly. It's a good tool to use if someone's outside of your melee range and you're unable to close the gap for a moment. Other than that there are probably better options, but situation dictates.

[oofalong]

Not exactly. It's a good tool to use if someone's outside of your melee range and you're unable to close the gap for a moment. Other than that there are probably better options, but situation dictates.

 

So the only time this makes sense is on the Operator IX if you are standing in the center to deactivate the shield on the cores. In every other situation you are better off saving your Rage for when you are in melee range. Force Scream's range is 10m so the difference between its range and melee is minimal.

 

Between Force Camouflage and Force Charge you should not be out of range for long. Plus, Dual Saber Throw is the preferred range attack, and it has a 30m range. Finally, you really shouldn't be out of range

[Omophorus]

I am very interested in this debate; let's define opener as 10 GCDs, which seems long. (BTW, this should only increase the likelihood that Annihilation is better.

 

10 GCDs is an eternity.

 

A opener is 3-5 GCDs max in PVP (which is the main time it really matters, as generic "burst" is more applicable in PVE and less tightly defined as different fights permit different burst windows).

 

For example, a Deception Assassin's opener is Spike > Maul > Recklessness + Discharge > Shock. The latter two will reliably crit, so in 3 GCDs after combat begins, you've generally dumped 13,000-18,000 damage into a target, potentially more.

 

Likewise, opener for Rage is (assuming one has Shockwave built already) Charge/Obliterate > Smash > Scream/DST. Anything after that isn't opener. Reliably 10,000-15,000+ damage in 3 GCDs.

 

Carnage, you're talking one Gore window, whatever its contents may be, possibly preceded by a Charge and/or couple GCDs of setup (though not if you can help it). The most variable, but 10-15,000 damage out of a Gore window is not at all uncommon. It is admittedly hard to execute in a 1v1 situation, but Carnage never has been the most reliable 1v1 spec.

 

Anni, there is just not enough real burst in 3-5 GCDs to match anything I've listed thus far, even if Annihilate, Ravage, and DST are accounted for. You might be able to hit 10-15k with insane luck on crits, but that's rare, and can only be executed infrequently due to CDs. Any attentive enemy with a cleanse will be watching out for Deadly Saber stacks before Berserk racks up big damage. Anni has no other auto-crits or crit boosted abilities to open with. Unreliable burst is not an effective opener.

 

Anything more than that brief window of 3-5 GCDs, and the other player/team is fully reacting. It ceases to be opener (when you're hopefully attacking from an advantageous position) and is just regular combat.

 

Remember, an opener is basically an "alpha strike" of maximum burst to gain the greatest advantage possible when actual combat begins. If you're fighting toe-to-toe you're not talking about opener anymore.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Omophorus

[K_osss]

10 GCDs is an eternity.

 

A opener is 3-5 GCDs max in PVP (which is the main time it really matters, as generic "burst" is more applicable in PVE and less tightly defined as different fights permit different burst windows).

 

 

For example, a Deception Assassin's opener is Spike > Maul > Recklessness + Discharge > Shock. The latter two will reliably crit, so in 3 GCDs after combat begins, you've generally dumped 13,000-18,000 damage into a target, potentially more.

 

Likewise, opener for Rage is (assuming one has Shockwave built already) Charge/Obliterate > Smash > Scream/DST. Anything after that isn't opener. Reliably 10,000-15,000+ damage in 3 GCDs.

 

Carnage, you're talking one Gore window, whatever its contents may be, possibly preceded by a Charge and/or couple GCDs of setup (though not if you can help it). The most variable, but 10-15,000 damage out of a Gore window is not at all uncommon. It is admittedly hard to execute in a 1v1 situation, but Carnage never has been the most reliable 1v1 spec.

 

Anni, there is just not enough real burst in 3-5 GCDs to match anything I've listed thus far, even if Annihilate, Ravage, and DST are accounted for. You might be able to hit 10-15k with insane luck on crits, but that's rare, and can only be executed infrequently due to CDs. Any attentive enemy with a cleanse will be watching out for Deadly Saber stacks before Berserk racks up big damage. Anni has no other auto-crits or crit boosted abilities to open with. Unreliable burst is not an effective opener.

 

Anything more than that brief window of 3-5 GCDs, and the other player/team is fully reacting. It ceases to be opener (when you're hopefully attacking from an advantageous position) and is just regular combat.

 

 

Remember, an opener is basically an "alpha strike" of maximum burst to gain the greatest advantage possible when actual combat begins. If you're fighting toe-to-toe you're not talking about opener anymore.

 

Agreed, and from a reliable consistently high and easy to apply damage standpoint it's Rage>Carnage>Annilation (in organized PvP).

[idnewton]

So the only time this makes sense is on the Operator IX if you are standing in the center to deactivate the shield on the cores. In every other situation you are better off saving your Rage for when you are in melee range. Force Scream's range is 10m so the difference between its range and melee is minimal.

 

Nope, even then you shouldn't. Ya know that 'deadly saber' ability no one uses? Yeah, that's where you use it. Even then, only to get your orb to come to you.

[oofalong]

Nope, even then you shouldn't. Ya know that 'deadly saber' ability no one uses? Yeah, that's where you use it. Even then, only to get your orb to come to you.

 

I think you mean Deadly Throw, right? If so you are right, it costs one less resource. In any event the moral of the story is don't regularly use Force Scream (or Deadly Throw).

[oofalong]

10 GCDs is an eternity.

 

A opener is 3-5 GCDs max in PVP (which is the main time it really matters, as generic "burst" is more applicable in PVE and less tightly defined as different fights permit different burst windows).

...

Remember, an opener is basically an "alpha strike" of maximum burst to gain the greatest advantage possible when actual combat begins. If you're fighting toe-to-toe you're not talking about opener anymore.

 

I agree that 10 GCD is a huge amount of time; I was being very generous to HerrManstein. I was challenging him/her to demonstrate how Annihilation can out burst Carnage or Rage.

[idnewton]

I think you mean Deadly Throw, right?

 

Yeah lol. Deadly something. Whatever works. Just make sure the enemy dies and you dont...

[Yeochins]

You're welcome!

 

 

 

Reread my original post, paragraph breaks are typically used to separate points and context.

 

Annihilation's opener can easily hit 30k, if you knew anything about the spec and have ever used a parser you would know this.

 

 

 

In case you are wondering, that is the proper context for my original statement, and most dps ACs typically have between 28-30k hp.

 

There is soo much misinformation in this line.

 

An annihilation marauder has no opening burst. You are not hitting 30,000 HP worth of damage in 7 skills or less. You think you're going to charge in place dots and hit Annihilate and call that an opener? That borders on the side of regular combat, not an opener.

 

Clearly you don't PvP much. The best opening burst you will ever get from a marauder comes from:

 

Rage

1. Beserk
   
2. Force Charge
   
3. Smash
   
4. Force Scream
   

 

Carnage:

1. Force Charge
   
2. Gore
   
3. Ravage
   

 

Carnage:

1. Force Charge
   
2. Battering Assault
   
3. Gore
   
4. Massacre
   
5. Scream (On execute proc)
   

 

Carnage:

1. Force Charge
   
2. Battering Assault
   
3. Gore
   
4. Massacre
   
5. Vicious Throw (On slaughter proc)
   
6. Gore
   
7. Scream (On execute proc)
   

 

None of these are going to take 30K HP off your opponent. If you really think so, then you are clearly lying on the forums because anyone whose PvP'ed knows that the best you will get in less than 10 seconds worth of 1 on 1 combat is 20K HP. And those numbers don't come from marauders, they come from Sorcerers which can reach 20K HP in 2 GCDs following the cast of Thundering Blast.

 

I can guarantee you in PvP you will be stunned, knocked back, blinded, rooted, resisted well before you take 10K worth of HP off of another class.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Yeochins

[Rw-Gamepro]

None of these are going to take 30K HP off your opponent. If you really think so, then you are clearly lying on the forums because anyone whose PvP'ed knows that the best you will get in less than 10 seconds worth of 1 on 1 combat is 20K HP. And those numbers don't come from marauders, they come from Sorcerers which can reach 20K HP in 2 GCDs following the cast of Thundering Blast.

 

I would love to know what sorc ability you are using that hits 20k in 2 GCD

Or are you counting the Thundering blast in the 20k but not the 2GCD?

[veyl]

I would love to know what sorc ability you are using that hits 20k in 2 GCD

Or are you counting the Thundering blast in the 20k but not the 2GCD?

 

I'm assuming he's talking about a Thundering Blast + 30% second damage crit || Chain lightning + 30% second damage crit. It'd be closer to 17k, but only if the person they're hitting has 0 expertise. 20k would only be possible if the person they're attacking has 0 expertise, an armor debuff (for chain lightning) and Bloodthirst. In other words: All the stars would have to align for it to happen.

 

That person would probably quit the game after losing 70% of their health bar to a sorc in 2 gcds though.

Edited July 3, 2013 by veyl

[idnewton]

I'm assuming he's talking about a Thundering Blast + 30% second damage crit || Chain lightning + 30% second damage crit. It'd be closer to 17k, but only if the person they're hitting has 0 expertise. 20k would only be possible if the person they're attacking has 0 expertise, an armor debuff (for chain lightning) and Bloodthirst. In other words: All the stars would have to align for it to happen.

 

That person would probably quit the game after losing 70% of their health bar to a sorc in 2 gcds though.

 

And you felt like that post was worth necroing the thread, because...?

[veyl]

And you felt like that post was worth necroing the thread, because...?

 

not even a month old =/= necro'ing.