11/11/24 Workhorse type build for PvP.

[MyDominion]

Hello,

 

First off all i would like to say that i value creativity and while most people say powertech/vanguard is unplayable i very much disagree. With that being said i will also note that i had tested dozen different setups revolving around plasma cell, CGC alone. I see you as one of the few people testing and reaching for things that are not standard.

 

This was the build i came up with some time ago, when i had thought about strong pressure on target with as many dots as possible.

 

BUT this setup comes with price, and the price is huge - predictability and lack of burst. I loved the protection level of combined Flame Sweep with included 5% damage reduction and 2% damage reduction from Power Armor, combined with Oil slick, but the problem is - you have much less tools to kill Operative healer, and it's impossible if he is guarded or healed by another side healer. You can build some tempo with the right mixture of dots and rotation, but it's simply predictable. I like the idea of having gut as a third DOT but after extensive 3 week tests of more than dozen CGC specs i had made a conclusion that the extra protection will not give you enough of it to survive focus anyway, and that the lack of burst makes you unable to finish targets fast which under most circumstances should be your job.

 

With that in mind, and with all due respect i have for this build and small variations of it i came to conclusion that 4/6/36 is still the BEST BURST pvp build of a pyro simply because you put huge pressure.

 

First of all you have 3 dots, but they are all fire based. Additional damage on Stockstrike/Rocket Punch and Assault Plastique/Thermal Detonator simply makes it even better. On a good day after popintg 25% you get 6.1k TD followed by RS for almost 6.5k, followed by Stockstrike for 6.2k followed by another RS for 6.5k . This by itself is enough to beat most targets of their feets leaving them with only handful of HP left (considering you also use rapid shots, flame burst, and incendiary round and finish with shoulder cannon and other 2 dots are sitting on target that just went to less than 30% health). I do agree this it's only situational but the right tech crit amount added from upper Pyro talents, combined with more damage to TD and RP give enough burst to deal with most pesky healers. Also, because you have 3 dots you can build a huge pressure even when not doing top damage. Simply 3 burns when the target is bellow 30% health finish him off by doing more than 3k per dots tick (CGC, Incendiary and TD dot).

 

Additionally reduction of cooldowns on both Vent Heat and Thermal Sensor gives you the right amount of help needed to sustain top burst all the time (with Incendiary Missile, TD and CGC). IF the target also targets you it's in the worst position taking damage from your poped Energy Shield (counts as 4th dot).

 

With all above, you can easily lose that 6% elemental damage, and 3% aim AND 6% IP damage, simply because you have bursted target before ion pulse/flameburst spam is necessary, and more importantly BEFORE you took much damage.

 

As for defense, you don't have to look at it, when you are in defense phase - simply roll hybrid with Prot Flamethrower for antismash or roll full Advanced Prototype (sometimes works with shield generator and ion cell making u unkillable).

 

Time of well round all can do specs is simply over for pyros and vanguards, and we need to adjust to every warzone in a different way filling gaps of your ranked team. For assault Phase, burst is they key, for defense, well fieldrespec can be done under 15 seconds .

 

I liked the idea very much, but for me it's more of a fluff "Republic Commando" type of a build. Rounded but not good in any particular aspect. Good for 1v1, baaaaad for organized warzones.

 

PS, I didn't wanted to sound unpleasant or anything. This is not a pun, or epen contest. I am simply sharing my thoughts and my subjective experience on playing Vanguard and Pyro.

 

PS2. For me, the 5-7% alactrity makes the difference. But that is also subjective.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read some of the post. I agree with some of what you said and some of it not as much. I think fundamentally we are looking at this from two different perspectives. I can see your analyzing from a ranked perspective, where in a dps roll you are expected to burst. I've worked on this from a general PvP perspective (mostly none ranked and solo que'd).

 

I don't think anyone will argue the most burst potential for the PT is still full Pyro, just based off of TD being put into the rotation (with a crit it's nice, w/o it's garbage). The issue I have with what you posted are some of the numbers. I can't recall ever getting a TD to hit for 6.1 or a RP to hit for 6.1, or even close. Those have alway's stayed in the 4.6-barely 5k range for me. Also in order to hit a spree of crits to get those 4.6-6.5 numbers you need explosive fuel up and even then it's RNG. And the reason I'm even bringing that up is to get down the issue PT's have fundamentally from your perspective which is ranked...

 

PT as the game stands now are only used by top tier ranked teams in the roll of tank. PT as a DPS in top tier ranked teams became obsolete in 2.0. It simply comes down to numbers and game design. Two things we have no control over. There are classes that are designed better and have better numbers, that fill the DPS roll better.

 

Fundamentally your right, if you want to play PT in a DPS roll in a ranked team, the most burst you'll get potentially is out of a full Pyro build.

 

This build was'nt designed for burst, it was for more versatility, utility and consistent damage or 'predictable damage' as you put it, but keep in mind once a healer see's a TD ticking full Pyro damage becomes predictable too. (alot of this I adress earlier in the posts). The reason I worked on a this build is because 98% of PvP that goes on is in regular warzones, and finding a build that suits your playstyle within that arena. For ranked more variables are added, where mobility/burst/class design/synergy play a stronger roll. And ultimately for DPS(in ranked) it is finding the build that has the highest burst potential, and your right full Pyro has that. (even though it relies on a cooldown every 2 minutes and even if all is in your favor still is'nt all that good. when stacked against other DPS).

 

I appreciate your input, I think the PT board needs more posts and input. Hopefully this clarifies where I'm coming from, and the point of this build.

Edited June 10, 2013 by MyDominion

[Nezyrworks]

Thanks for taking the time to read some of the post. I agree with some of what you said and some of it not as much. I think fundamentally we are looking at this from two different perspectives. I can see your analyzing from a ranked perspective, where in a dps roll you are expected to burst. I've worked on this from a general PvP perspective (mostly none ranked and solo que'd).

 

I don't think anyone will argue the most burst potential for the PT is still full Pyro, just based off of TD being put into the rotation (with a crit it's nice, w/o it's garbage). The issue I have with what you posted are some of the numbers. I can't recall ever getting a TD to hit for 6.1 or a RP to hit for 6.1, or even close. Those have alway's stayed in the 4.6-barely 5k range for me. Also in order to hit a spree of crits to get those 4.6-6.5 numbers you need explosive fuel up and even then it's RNG. And the reason I'm even bringing that up is to get down the issue PT's have fundamentally from your perspective which is ranked...

 

PT as the game stands now are only used by top tier ranked teams in the roll of tank. PT as a DPS in top tier ranked teams became obsolete in 2.0. It simply comes down to numbers and game design. Two things we have no control over. There are classes that are designed better and have better numbers, that fill the DPS roll better.

 

Fundamentally your right, if you want to play PT in a DPS roll in a ranked team, the most burst you'll get potentially is out of a full Pyro build.

 

This build was'nt designed for burst, it was for more versatility, utility and consistent damage or 'predictable damage' as you put it, but keep in mind once a healer see's a TD ticking full Pyro damage becomes predictable too. (alot of this I adress earlier in the posts). The reason I worked on a this build is because 98% of PvP that goes on is in regular warzones, and finding a build that suits your playstyle within that arena. For ranked more variables are added, where mobility/burst/class design/synergy play a stronger roll. And ultimately for DPS(in ranked) it is finding the build that has the highest burst potential, and your right full Pyro has that. (even though it relies on a cooldown every 2 minutes and even if all is in your favor still is'nt all that good. when stacked against other DPS).

 

I appreciate your input, I think the PT board needs more posts and input. Hopefully this clarifies where I'm coming from, and the point of this build.

 

That is why i said on a good day and mentioned explosive fuel there. Well i am looking from both perspectives but i always take games seriously, and yes the numbers were based on normal pug games. As you mentioned it is build for pugs.

 

As i said before i think it's a rounded build, good one on one except fights with healers.

 

There is a way to cheat healers forcing them to use the bubble/probe. It's Explosive Dart. The sound is not fully the same, but it works around 75% of the time. So before you burst them with your main rotation, go for sticky to force their absorbtion, and use couple of flamebursts to take down the damage reduction. Once it is done, you can come with the main rotation. Works for me.

 

I said above about many viable specs, but for different occasions. I have long ago abandoned the idea of one spec, because every warzone requires you to go different route, and i do respec even in the middle of a game, to adjust to the situation. About the builds i can give hints:

 

 

• One build for hutball and should i say it is the best control build i had seen in the game so far. Performs in every role on hutball starting from taking down the ball carrier, and ending on scoring. It focuses on utility, which in this case is just superb. Remember you don't have to be focused on DPS on this particular warzone.
   
  
• For Voidstar assault i use 4/6/36 for maximum burst to burn defenders fast enough. But for defense i use ether full AP/Tactics (sometimes with shield generator and ion cylinder) or antismash build - a hybrid based on prot flamethrower AND RS reset (that depends on the composition for pug, because for ranked i run AP more than anything).
   
  
• For Civil War i tend to start from 11/11/24, 11/8/27 or full pyro 4/6/36. the choice only depends if im intercepting left or going mid. After that when my team gets 2nd turret i tend to roll defensive builds with AOE and damage resist on stun/AOE to prevent smash and counter stealthers.
   
  
• Novare coast - here if i see 2+ coordinated smashers (or lack of 2nd tank) i roll defensive build, otherwise im in one of the offensive builds (i prefer to start with full pyro because of the burst in the initial phase).
   
  
• And last but not least Ancient Hypergate. I rarely do protect the pylon, and if i face smashers im running defensive, but if i run sorcs/snipers i tend to take high burst build because it helps me overcome the ranged spam faster.
  

 

So in conclusion there are classes that are better in dps i agree, but your flexibility can make the difference. And here you have a huge field of maneuver. I had run twin full pyrotech builds recently and it works almost as it used to (bursting targets fast enough). But my opinion is that above all you need to be the flexible one in the team, and your effort will be rewarded. Sometimes that 3rd (or even 4th) semitank can make the difference, or your utilities can hold 6 players trapped in huttball and unable to chase your ball carrier/unable to score.

 

And yes i employ the spec change every warzone no matter if it is ranked or not.

 

Getting back to your spec i do agree the flameshield makes the 4th dot and thus it's much better for situations when you need to fight 1v1. The only reason to take Volatile Ingniter would be for application of multiple CGCs to slow many targets at once, which under some circumstances can work as a 2nd weaker version of oil slick.

 

Gut is one of the best skills you have at your disposal when dueling, because enemy can't calculate it that fast. It is situational, but it does well.

 

I would only employ the sticky grenade trick before you start the main rotation because of how many absorbs hang around. For healers i tend to drop Incendiary Missile also. Yes it's heat cost is large, but it is the every bit of damage you need to take operative/scoundrel down.

 

One last thing - i think that you need some crit rating because you lose Burnout, and remember that in case of Firebug, every crit is important. Since you focus more on tech based rotation (FB, RB, RP, CGC, IM) you need those crits. For PVE i would go full power every time (because i use hybrid with no firebug anyway), but because firebug is by itself the main tool you have in terms of high end damage, you need to focus on getting those crits. about 200-250 CR would do the thing. this is the average value i had used.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Nezyrworks

[Siphorus]

if you are vsing a good team in rateds, you wont get the chance to get that close to stab them lol... this spec will never break 1100 RWZ rating

[Nezyrworks]

if you are vsing a good team in rateds, you wont get the chance to get that close to stab them lol... this spec will never break 1100 RWZ rating

 

Ye, but the author said it is not ranked build, its pug oriented. And i tend to agree.

 

But saying that u will get no chance to stab em is rather ...laughable.

[Aetrus]

IDK. Full Pyro for pugging is the worst thing you can do, IMO. It only has higher burst than 11/8/27 every 2 minutes during the Explosive Fuel window. Otherwise when TD doesn't crit 11/8/27's Flame Burst deals more damage. You might pull slightly higher final scoreboard numbers, but only because of the TD DoT, which is fluff and irrelevant for killing people. Full Pyro is also probably the squishiest spec in the game, maybe with the exception of Madness Sorcs.

 

I know on Jung Ma there are DPS PTs on several ranked teams who all run the full Pyro build (for Nem'tk's benefit, that's Override from Overlord and his pub alt in Immortal, Spooky from Imperial Guard and Iron'maiden from Dark Legion's Empire to name a few), however, those teams are all very good, have excellent healers and tanks and I suspect they're getting carried by their team. If you've got an average team or you're pugging, I think 11//8/27 or full AP are the best builds you can run due to their tankiness and 1v1 ability. Except I'd never recommend AP for ranked because of the severe lack of burst.

[Nezyrworks]

IDK. Full Pyro for pugging is the worst thing you can do, IMO. It only has higher burst than 11/8/27 every 2 minutes during the Explosive Fuel window. Otherwise when TD doesn't crit 11/8/27's Flame Burst deals more damage. You might pull slightly higher final scoreboard numbers, but only because of the TD DoT, which is fluff and irrelevant for killing people. Full Pyro is also probably the squishiest spec in the game, maybe with the exception of Madness Sorcs.

 

I know on Jung Ma there are DPS PTs on several ranked teams who all run the full Pyro build (for Nem'tk's benefit, that's Override from Overlord and his pub alt in Immortal, Spooky from Imperial Guard and Iron'maiden from Dark Legion's Empire to name a few), however, those teams are all very good, have excellent healers and tanks and I suspect they're getting carried by their team. If you've got an average team or you're pugging, I think 11//8/27 or full AP are the best builds you can run due to their tankiness and 1v1 ability. Except I'd never recommend AP for ranked because of the severe lack of burst.

 

The burst is higher every time, since TD and RP runs on Firebug. You sacrifice sustained dps from FB to get more burst from both above mentioned skills. Besides, the dots are nothing to sneeze at. All 3 dots on target gives you last 30% of the target much easier to deal with after initial burst done by TD+RS+SS+RS. For me burst>sustained if u consider assault phases of warzones. BTW the dot from TD is almost equal in damage to the loss of bonus damage on your FB (on average considering 35% crit on fire based skills).

 

As i had mentioned before i take defensive phase of each warzone with defensive builds, dependent on number of smashers and sorcs/snipers. Full AP or Hybrid (3/27/16) are the way to go.

[Aetrus]

The burst is higher every time, since TD and RP runs on Firebug. You sacrifice sustained dps from FB to get more burst from both above mentioned skills.

 

That's not accurate. Yeah, TD benefits from Firebug. So does Flame Burst. Flame Burst also benefits from Hot Iron in the AP tree and Hyper Fuel in Shieldtech. Both things that TD does not. When you crit, TD will reach higher numbers by 200-400. When you don't crit, 11/8/27's Flame Burst is higher damage. Run a quick parse, 10 TDs in 36 Pyro and 10 Flame Bursts in 27 Pyro, and you'll see what I'm talking about. The average will come out in Flame Burst's favor, with TD pulling the slightly higher crits but less frequently. There's also the fact that with Prototype Burn Enhancers in the AP tree, Flame Burst will crit more often. I get what you're talking about. That "oh ****" burst. And what I'm saying is that when Explosive Fuel is down, if you TD someone and I Flame Burst them instead, I'm more likely to deal that higher up front damage. TD will outdamage FB, but only because of the burn. In up front damage, FB is better when Explosive Fuel is on CD. And that, IMO, is why full Pyro is trash in 2.0. And I was one of the advocates of 8/8/25 being completely retarded pre-2.0 and full Pyro being the only way to go. But they've gutted TD so badly as to make it all but useless.

 

For reference, this is the build I run. I tried Nem'tk's original build with small tweaks, and found that I'd rather play a little riskier by being slightly less tanky but deal slightly more damage by taking 2 points in Burnout.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Aetrus

[mfourcustom]

Not sure what your specifying. If you mean the powertech in general, each person makes that choice. If you mean the build, each person makes a choice. This build is for those that want to use a pyro based build in PvP, nothing more nothing less.

 

er, my bad i was just saying i just don't get the point behind the spec.. but like i said to each his own.

 

with the right gearing with power in mind 8/8/30 works well i mean the burst will never be what it once was unless our class gets some roll backs/buffs in the future but whichever spec you like to run:cool: i look for efficiency in my specs. i see efficiency at peeling with this spec but lol thats about it and i mean if your really wanting to peel for heals and teammates well than lol just full spec tank. This is all just my opinion tho whatever you cats wanna roll with.

[Aetrus]

er, my bad i was just saying i just don't get the point behind the spec.. but like i said to each his own.

 

with the right gearing with power in mind 8/8/30 works well i mean the burst will never be what it once was unless our class gets some roll backs/buffs in the future but whichever spec you like to run:cool: i look for efficiency in my specs. i see efficiency at peeling with this spec but lol thats about it and i mean if your really wanting to peel for heals and teammates well than lol just full spec tank. This is all just my opinion tho whatever you cats wanna roll with.

 

8/8/30 can't 1v1 marauders. OP's spec can.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Aetrus

[Nezyrworks]

That's not accurate. Yeah, TD benefits from Firebug. So does Flame Burst. Flame Burst also benefits from Hot Iron in the AP tree and Hyper Fuel in Shieldtech. Both things that TD does not. When you crit, TD will reach higher numbers by 200-400. When you don't crit, 11/8/27's Flame Burst is higher damage. Run a quick parse, 10 TDs in 36 Pyro and 10 Flame Bursts in 27 Pyro, and you'll see what I'm talking about. The average will come out in Flame Burst's favor, with TD pulling the slightly higher crits but less frequently. There's also the fact that with Prototype Burn Enhancers in the AP tree, Flame Burst will crit more often. I get what you're talking about. That "oh ****" burst. And what I'm saying is that when Explosive Fuel is down, if you TD someone and I Flame Burst them instead, I'm more likely to deal that higher up front damage. TD will outdamage FB, but only because of the burn. In up front damage, FB is better when Explosive Fuel is on CD. And that, IMO, is why full Pyro is trash in 2.0. And I was one of the advocates of 8/8/25 being completely retarded pre-2.0 and full Pyro being the only way to go. But they've gutted TD so badly as to make it all but useless.

 

For reference, this is the build I run. I tried Nem'tk's original build with small tweaks, and found that I'd rather play a little riskier by being slightly less tanky but deal slightly more damage by taking 2 points in Burnout.

 

I am running WITH TD and WITHOUT IT. The Difference is a 3rd dot on 30% health of enemy, and on unpredictable burst generated from TD. That is why i use it.

 

I do agree that under some circumstances Flameburst hits might be even better overall but without that TD burst healers might easily predict your next damage and thus just keep healing. You can't rely on parses every time, since fuel changes things drastically. Besides you also get better Rocket punch which you forgot about im afraid.

[Luckeyduckey]

8/8/30 can't 1v1 marauders. OP's spec can.

 

Yes it can... Have you heard of kiting? And DoTs? And Hydraulic Overrides?