The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 01: Revan vs. Meetra Surik

[LadyKulvax]

*Snip*

 

Your whole logic is that because Revan is better in one ability that means he wins, you have come out with some arbitrary debate that force deflection means all, when there are numerous duels where someone has lost an engagement such as that and still come out on top.

 

Oh and I perfectly accept any character's opinion, as long as they are note worthy opinions and not second or even third hand accounts, Kreia trained them both, she knows the potential each had, she is a perfect judge of the both of them, at gauging their power and potential, it is why I accept Luke Skywalker's opinions higher than Anybody else's.

 

The skill in force deflection is not the be all and end all of power, I really don't see where you are getting such a notion from.

[LadyKulvax]

Yeah and then he tried that one on Sidious, didn't work did it? But anyway tutanamis is not so important here. What I'm arguing is the Revan>Nyriss, Nyriss>Meetra therefore Revan>Meetra. Tutanamis just happens to be the way Revan defeated her, yet you guys seem to be saying that that does not necessarily mean Revan is more powerful than her, while I am saying it clearly shows he is. Else he would be dead.

 

NOTE: Lets also remember that Nyriss easily defeated Meetra and Scourge simultaneously, the fight lasted what seconds? minutes? Then along comes Revan and defeats her with ease. It doesn't really matter if her powers were out of control, she wasn't expecting the attack etc. Despite this it is clear that Revan simply outclasses Meetra, by a long way too.

 

Yet your entire point is that 1.Tutaminis is a perfect gauge of anyone's power and 2.think that disregarding the whole situation surrounding it is perfectly viable as well.

 

Neither of these notions are acceptable nor irrefutable by any measure.

[Beniboybling]

Yet your entire point is that 1.Tutaminis is a perfect gauge of anyone's power and 2.think that disregarding the whole situation surrounding it is perfectly viable as well.

 

Neither of these notions are acceptable nor irrefutable by any measure.

If you disagree so strongly please tell me 1.Why this is not the case. 2. Why the 'situation' has considerable bearing on my argument. Rather than saying "your wrong!"

 

P.S. My entire point is, Revan is stronger than Nyriss, Meetra is weaker than Nyriss, therefore Revan is stronger than Meetra. I don't really see the illogical flaw in that argument, it is obvious the author was implying this.

 

EDIT: Has anyone got the Revan novel? Can anyone quote the passage?

Edited March 18, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

If you disagree so strongly please tell me 1.Why this is not the case. 2. Why the 'situation' has considerable bearing on my argument. Rather than saying "your wrong!"

 

1.If force deflection was such a simple way to determine who was more powerful, wouldn't that argument be used all the time? reason it isn't, it because.... it isn't, Master Fay wasn't very good at all at force deflection yet she was seen as second only to Yoda in force prowess, she would wreck almost anyone in her time, Obi-Wan was much better at absorbed attacks in a variety of ways, yet he was nowhere near her league.

2.The situation is that the book itself states he basically comes out of nowhere whilst shes about to fire on all cylinders, uses tutaminis and in the book it describes that he moves so fast that she doesn't get time to put up her own defences and is killed by it, meaning she could very well have blocked it herself if not for the speed of the attack.

 

EDIT: Drew is actually very lazy at properly describing how the Scourge and Surik vs Nyriss duel goes down, he spends more time describing what Revan is thinking as well.

Edited March 18, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

1.If force deflection was such a simple way to determine who was more powerful, wouldn't that argument be used all the time? reason it isn't, it because.... it isn't, Master Fay wasn't very good at all at force deflection yet she was seen as second only to Yoda in force prowess, she would wreck almost anyone in her time, Obi-Wan was much better at absorbed attacks in a variety of ways, yet he was nowhere near her league.

2.The situation is that the book itself states he basically comes out of nowhere whilst shes about to fire on all cylinders, uses tutaminis and in the book it describes that he moves so fast that she doesn't get time to put up her own defences and is killed by it, meaning she could very well have blocked it herself if not for the speed of the attack.

 

EDIT: Drew is actually very lazy at properly describing how the Scourge and Surik vs Nyriss duel goes down, he spends more time describing what Revan is thinking as well.

1. You're misunderstanding what I am saying and getting too bogged down in the importance of Force deflection. I am not saying that all powerful force wielders are skilled in Force deflection. Rather I am saying that when a Jedi and a Sith clash in the Force through Force lightning vs Tutaminis/Force deflection the outcome of that battle can be used to gauge their ability in the Force. Such as those I gave as examples. Much like when two duelist lock lightsabers the outcome of that clash can be used to guage their physical strengths. However this would not be to say that a Jedi such as Thon is weak because he cannot engage in that kind of confrontation, it just means that it is more difficult to gauge his physical strength, the same applies to Master Fay. What I am asking you to do is give me an example of where a Jedi and a Sith have been locked (sustained clash) in a Force based clash of Force lightning vs Tutaminis/Force deflection and the one who succeeded can be canonically confirmed to be the weaker. I am sure you will find none.

 

2.This doesn't change the fact that he absorbed the full brunt of her assault, held it and then chucked it back at her. Her lack of preparation has no bearing on this and would not have made it any easier. All it means is the return blow had a more powerful impact. But that is irrelevant. (Although this probably was not the case as Revan took the time to mock her before reflecting it.) The fact that she 'fired all cylinders' means that you cannot make the argument that if she had been prepared she would have made it more powerful, sustained it etc. We also have to consider that for the Sith, it is about firing, and for the Jedi it is about absorbing. I'm not saying it is easier for any of them, I am merely pointing out that even if she had been prepared she couldn't have used tutanimis on her own lightining. And like I said, the effect it had on her actual body is irrelevant, all that matters is that she was overwhelmed. I figure I explained that poorly so allow me to make an analogy:

 

A Sith is about to strike down a defenceless opponent with a full powered blow, as he moves in to strike a Jedi jumps in the way and absorbs the attack, they enter a brief saber lock but the Jedi overwhelms the Sith quickly. Because he has had no time to prepare he cannot set up any bodily defences and the incoming blow kills him. In this scenario there is no doubt that the Jedi is stronger, despite his opponent being surprised the force of the blow was still there, the fact that the blow killed him is irrelevant. If the Sith had been prepared he may have survived the attack and the duel would have continued. But if the duel was a pure battle of strength the Jedi would win, he has already shown himself superior in that field.

 

So even if Nyriss had not been surprised and survived the attack. If the battle had continued to be Force based she would have lost, as Revan had already shown himself to be superior in that field.

 

However what this does mean is that the Exile could potentially defeat him through lightsaber combat as Revan is only stronger than her in the Force. However the Force can be used and normally is used to augment lightsaber ability. So the chances of her winning remain slim, especially if Revan forces her into a Force based engagement. I give Revan the edge.

 

P.S. We can also apply this to his battle with Vitiate. He absorbed the attack and although he was overwhelmed he still managed to hold it for some time, indicating that Revan possess quite a decent portion of Vitiate's strength in the Force.

[pbajnokl]

Revan wins. Btw who was the mentor for who? and who has more knowledge of force techniques? You can read a few in the Darth Bane novel what Revan knows. Not to mention Revan got back his memories and every knowledge (even those what later his holocron thougth to bane).

Edit: When I saw aurbere's new vs thread I just know it when this duel comes... it will be a flame war... but at least we are going trough fast.

Edited March 18, 2013 by pbajnokl

[Beniboybling]

Revan wins. Btw who was the mentor for who? and who has knowledge of more force techniques? You can read a few in the Darth Bane novel what Revan knows. Not to mention Revan got back his memories and every knowledge (even those what later his holocron thougth to bane).

True, if Revan is prepared to use his powers to their fullest extent he can call down Force storms on Meetra - abilities Sion, Nihilus and Traya never displayed. This is how I think the battle will go:

 

Revan will begin with a Force projection storm, pelting Meetra with chunks of rock ripped out of the Enclave walls and floors. The Exile will defect/absorb these at first but will begin to wear down. Once she does Revan will unleash a violent storm of Force lightning at her, more powerful than anything Nyriss conjured, and in her weakened state she will be powerless to resist. She'll be blasted back against the wall and her Force barrier will be broken, Revan will yank her forward and impale her on his waiting lightsaber then whisper in her ear "I'm sorry, my friend" then drop her down dead.

 

Revan wins.

 

EDIT: Guys, don't forget the first round of This is Madness begins today, voting for this bracket closes tommorow. Vote now!

Edited March 18, 2013 by Beniboybling

[pbajnokl]

 

Revan will begin with a Force projection storm, pelting Meetra with chunks of rock ripped out of the Enclave walls and floors. The Exile will defect/absorb these at first but will begin to wear down. Once she does Revan will unleash a violent storm of Force lightning at her, more powerful than anything Nyriss conjured, and in her weakened state she will be powerless to resist. She'll be blasted back against the wall and her Force barrier will be broken, Revan will yank her forward and impale her on his waiting lightsaber then whisper in her ear "I'm sorry, my friend" then drop her down dead.

 

Revan wins.

 

WOW, this is more like an execution than a duel...it's a little funy but I like it

[Aurbere]

Revan wins. Btw who was the mentor for who? and who has more knowledge of force techniques? You can read a few in the Darth Bane novel what Revan knows. Not to mention Revan got back his memories and every knowledge (even those what later his holocron thougth to bane).

Edit: When I saw aurbere's new vs thread I just know it when this duel comes... it will be a flame war... but at least we are going trough fast.

 

I hope you are speaking of a Dark Side knowledge advantage. Because there is no way he has more Jedi knowledge than Surik.

 

Yes, threads with Revan usually become a flame war, which is why I posted this match-up first.

[Ventessel]

It really would be more akin to an execution, especially since the only thing going for Surik is that she might be as good as Revan in saber combat. However, there's very little evidence to support this. Revan was known to be an incredible duelist, and combined with his overwhelming force power, there's really no room for Surik to survive.

[Ventessel]

I hope you are speaking of a Dark Side knowledge advantage. Because there is no way he has more Jedi knowledge than Surik.

 

Yes, threads with Revan usually become a flame war, which is why I posted this match-up first.

 

Why shouldn't he? He advanced to become a Jedi Master even after he was Dark Lord of the Sith. Surik may have a close parity with him in light side knowledge, but Revan is acknowledged by both Surik and Scourge to be far more skilled at manipulating and understanding the Force. Not the Dark Side, but the Force in general.

[LadyKulvax]

 

This is all pointless debating anyway, A>B doesn't mean A>C, Obi-Wan lost to Dooku, Dooku lost to Anakin, Vader lost to Obi-Wan.

 

This can't be an argument won by who can beat who and who can't, we need to match force abilities and see who wins.

 

To me it's simple, the Exile's abilities are good enough of a match for Revan's, so much so that she will weaken him down, as he will her, the difference is that the Exile has an ability that can win her the duel.

 

If there is something I know the Exile is good at, it's making time where there isn't any, she can guess her opponents moves, know what her opponent is thinking and use such vital knowledge against them, Revan simply doesn't have the major overpowering abilities that can knock the Exile out.

 

Where as the Exile has the entire power of the light side and everything it can do at her fingertips, she is a total master of the Light Side of the Force, she has an enormous amount of endurance she can call on and she can actively allow herself to be guided by it's power, she has the abilities needed to defend herself.

 

She can not only play with Revan's head, she even has abilities that can severely impede his progress in a pressure based attack, not to mention that the longer this duel can be drawn out for, the more she will figure Revan out, know his tricks and predict his movements.

 

She can not only know exactly what he is thinking, she also doesn't need to see him to know where he is, not only can she sense him through the force, she can literally see him through the force over extended distances, Revan on the other hand is not going to easily sense a void in the force, she is an echo of the same things that gave the Jedi Masters ample ability to hide themselves in the Force.

 

She can hide, probe his mind, figure out his greatest tricks and prepare for them, not only that she can emotionally trick him into doing not exactly logical things.

 

All she needs to do is beat him down enough to greatly damage his connection to the force.

 

She is also a highly skilled duellist, simply because she faced down Sion four times, this is no normal Sith Lord, this is a guy who has spent four decades hunted downing Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters, he was able to enhance himself to great levels via the Trayus Core as well and is noted in TOR for having slain scores of Jedi battle-hardened by the Exar Kun War, not only that but the rate at which she learned the lightsaber forms from the Jedi masters stunned them, Kavar even stated that he wanted to train her himself, due to her natural talent, but couldn't.

 

Compare this to what Revan has and he really doesn't have abilities that give him the 'big win' button, the Exile however does.

 

They simply are too close for a definitive, who can beat down who cleanly.

 

I think the Exile will play him around, use his emotions for Bastila and his child to make him lose focus, Surik can use these opportunities to injure or damage him and keep him frustrated, she can lose herself from him, using the badly lit tunnels of the enclave to hide in, wait for the right moments, use her extremely advanced ability to probe minds and know his every step, eventually he will get weak enough to strip him of his power.

[LadyKulvax]

Why shouldn't he? He advanced to become a Jedi Master even after he was Dark Lord of the Sith. Surik may have a close parity with him in light side knowledge, but Revan is acknowledged by both Surik and Scourge to be far more skilled at manipulating and understanding the Force. Not the Dark Side, but the Force in general.

 

Surik is a complete and utter master of the light side and how exactly will Scourge and Surik know just how powerful he is with the Light Side? does he know sever force? clearly he doesn't, this is the most powerful Jedi ability, yet Surik knows it and Revan doesn't.

[Beniboybling]

I hope you are speaking of a Dark Side knowledge advantage. Because there is no way he has more Jedi knowledge than Surik.

 

Yes, threads with Revan usually become a flame war, which is why I posted this match-up first.

Useful knowledge, Surik had a few neat tricks that Kreia taught her however most of those would not be very effective in battle. Whereas Revan possess all the knowledge of the light and dark he needs to mount a powerful offensive indeed. Seriously this guy can summon Force storms, what's Meetra's defense against that?

 

P.S. Don't feel the need to respond to that, you being the Arbiter and all

[pbajnokl]

Surik is a complete and utter master of the light side and how exactly will Scourge and Surik know just how powerful he is with the Light Side? does he know sever force? clearly he doesn't, this is the most powerful Jedi ability, yet Surik knows it and Revan doesn't.

 

Then here is my trump card: Revan can use oneness and meetra just after her death. How many Jedi in history can use oneness?

 

Edit: Not even Aurbere going to argue with that, only comment but not veto it.

Edited March 18, 2013 by pbajnokl

[Beniboybling]

This is all pointless debating anyway, A>B doesn't mean A>C, Obi-Wan lost to Dooku, Dooku lost to Anakin, Vader lost to Obi-Wan.

In a lightsaber duel, in which there are many other factors to consider e.g. style, temperament (the fact Obi-Wan knew Anakin like the back of his hand.)

 

I'm merely saying that Revan is vastly more powerful than Meetra is in the Force. You say she is an absolute master in the lightside of the Force and yet she was easily slapped by Darth Nyriss who used similar attacks to what Revan would be using e.g. Force lightining/storm. And the fact is, Revan is stronger the Nyriss, so he will be using such powers to greater effect. Nor have to given me any plausible argument as to why A>B doesn't mean A>C, your just stating it likes its common debating knowledge. Well its not. E.g. Dooku lost to Yoda, Ventress lost to Dooku, Yoda beat Ventress. It works.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Useful knowledge, Surik had a few neat tricks that Kreia taught her however most of those would not be very effective in battle. Whereas Revan possess all the knowledge of the light and dark he needs to mount a powerful offensive indeed. Seriously this guy can summon Force storms, what's Meetra's defense against that?

 

P.S. Don't feel the need to respond to that, you being the Arbiter and all

 

Surik had the vast knowledge that comes from being an enlightened master of the Light Side.

 

Sidious can summon Force Storms of immense power and Luke (prior to becoming the Grand Master we know) still bested him.

[Aurbere]

Then here is my trump card: Revan can use oneness and meetra just after her death. How many Jedi in history can use oneness?

 

You don't "use" Oneness. It happens. It isn't something you can just turn on and ROFLPWNSTOMP everything.

[Ventessel]

This is all pointless debating anyway, A>B doesn't mean A>C, Obi-Wan lost to Dooku, Dooku lost to Anakin, Vader lost to Obi-Wan.

 

This can't be an argument won by who can beat who and who can't, we need to match force abilities and see who wins.

 

Hardly true. Dooku defeated Skywalker and Kenobi at the same time, and three years later Skywalker was able to defeat Dooku almost singlehandedly. With Nyriss we're given a clear case of two fights occurring at the same time with all parties at the peak of their abilities. It doesn't get better as far a metric goes.

 

To me it's simple, the Exile's abilities are good enough of a match for Revan's, so much so that she will weaken him down, as he will her, the difference is that the Exile has an ability that can win her the duel.

 

If there is something I know the Exile is good at, it's making time where there isn't any, she can guess her opponents moves, know what her opponent is thinking and use such vital knowledge against them, Revan simply doesn't have the major overpowering abilities that can knock the Exile out.

 

Entirely untrue. As skilled with battle precognition as the Exile is, Revan is better. Revan was considered the greatest warrior of his day, and his skills in personal combat and on the battlefield are almost without equal. The only person to ever give him trouble was Vitiate.

 

Revan has plenty of powers that can knock the Exile out. Force lightning, superior dueling skills, overwhelming telekinetic attacks, etc. He's basically got the entire playbook of the Force.

 

I think the Exile will play him around, use his emotions for Bastila and his child to make him lose focus, Surik can use these opportunities to injure or damage him and keep him frustrated, she can lose herself from him, using the badly lit tunnels of the enclave to hide in, wait for the right moments, use her extremely advanced ability to probe minds and know his every step, eventually he will get weak enough to strip him of his power.

 

If anyone is going to be using emotional manipulation, it will be Revan. The Exile is almost crippling in adoration of Revan and looks up to him as a brother-figure. She'll hardly be able to think clearly and calculatingly during the fight, while Revan is known to be unfailingly cool under pressure, making calculated sacrifices and hard choices.

 

Revan is also amazingly good at reading his enemies, as the Echani and Mandalorians learned. He took the Echani arts to a level that awed every Echani general, while Surik merely learned these things secondhand from a castaway, the Handmaiden.

[LadyKulvax]

Useful knowledge, Surik had a few neat tricks that Kreia taught her however most of those would not be very effective in battle. Whereas Revan possess all the knowledge of the light and dark he needs to mount a powerful offensive indeed. Seriously this guy can summon Force storms, what's Meetra's defense against that?

 

'A few neat tricks' she is a walking embodiment of battle meditation, she has precognition levels that are stupidly high, in other words, Revan can throw as many storms around as he likes, won't help him much when she already knows what he is going to do, she can probe his innermost thoughts, what his tactics are, make him doubt everything he knows and can slow him down considerably with her extremely advanced knowledge of force whirlwind and cloud mind, then make him totally useless by cutting his connection off.

 

The Exile can go for hours at a time, how long can Revan last?

[Beniboybling]

Surik had the vast knowledge that comes from being an enlightened master of the Light Side.

 

Sidious can summon Force Storms of immense power and Luke (prior to becoming the Grand Master we know) still bested him.

This is what I'd liked to bring into question, were is it stated that Meetra is an absolute master of the Light? Certainly not on her Wookiee page. The only evidence I've found of this is a game mechanic of a power that doesn't even exist.

 

And come on, you can't compare Meetra Surik to the Luke Skywalker. Even in his adolescent state he'd best them both.

[Aurbere]

The Exile can go for hours at a time

 

^Proven on Malachor.

[Ventessel]

Surik is a complete and utter master of the light side and how exactly will Scourge and Surik know just how powerful he is with the Light Side? does he know sever force? clearly he doesn't, this is the most powerful Jedi ability, yet Surik knows it and Revan doesn't.

 

As far as I can tell, the only canonical example of Surik actually cutting someone off from the Force is... herself. There is no evidence of her using this in battle, or she'd have just cut Sion off from the Force to stop his healing. She had to convince him to let go of his hate before he would die.

[Aurbere]

And come on, you can't compare Meetra Surik to the Luke Skywalker. Even in his adolescent state he'd best them both.

 

I would never. I merely provided a similar scenario to the one you provided. Maybe not a wise move on my part, but the lesson is hidden in there.

[Beniboybling]

'A few neat tricks' she is a walking embodiment of battle meditation, she has precognition levels that are stupidly high, in other words, Revan can throw as many storms around as he likes, won't help him much when she already knows what he is going to do, she can probe his innermost thoughts, what his tactics are, make him doubt everything he knows and can slow him down considerably with her extremely advanced knowledge of force whirlwind and cloud mind, then make him totally useless by cutting his connection off.

 

The Exile can go for hours at a time, how long can Revan last?

Where are you getting this stuff from?! Since when is Meetra the 'living embodiment' of battle meditation? Since when does she had 'extrmelt advanced knowledge of the Force?' Because she gets it as an ability in KOTOR? So does everyone! Not that battle meditation is going to be able to defend against a force storm, which is all round her. And like Ventessel says, Revan was extremely skilled in battle precognition also. And in the real Star Wars universe, I'm pretty sure battle meditation cannot be effectively pulled of unless you are in a state of meditation AKA not fighting for your life.

 

And like I said before, she can only use sever force when he is on his knees.

 

EDIT: I realise you have a big chunky book on KOTOR, but if your going to make these statements, back them up with some quotes/evidence.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Beniboybling