High HP Maruder is a No No? Why?

[Mercathode]

So I have a Rage Marauder combination Black Hole/Columni Gear. about 75%/25% respectively.

 

With a stim I had about 23,600 HP's

 

Was told that my build was off and HP was waaaay too high and I didn't have enough in Power.

 

The main attack is the shockwave smash. Before it did about 4300-4600 damage to up to 5 targets. Cycling every 15 seconds or so for another smash.

 

Now I have 20,600 HP's and doubled my Power rating and the shockwave smash does 4700-5000 damage.

 

BUT....I noticed I get killed allot easier and more often mostly b/c I think I attract more aggro now that I do more damage. Like I reached a threshold or something.

 

So what's the point? With the higher HP I can survive longer and thus do more damage. Can't do any damage lying dead on the floor.

 

Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

Before I kind of played a hybrid dps with a little of tank due to the higher HP.

[Aurojiin]

You've embarked on a journey of roundabout logic that seems initially appealing but ultimately leads to horribly ineffective groups. You're a DPS. Your job is to do as much damage as you can, not to slightly increase your time-to-live under focus fire.

 

If you start gearing yourself for survivability then why shouldn't the tanks and healers start gearing for more DPS? Pretty soon no one is doing anything well. If you're constantly dying then you either need to hold yourself back at the beginning of a pull or find better tanks/healers.

[Mercathode]

Thanks for the reply. I get what you are saying with the specialization aspect.

 

To be fair I've only played this new semi re-spec version for a little while. And with a few PUG's where I think one in particular the healer and tank were sort of lazy. I never jump in first but when I do and do the shockwave smash, all aggro goes to me since the total damage done is in the 20k plus. If the tank doesn't recover aggro and/or the healer isn't on the ball I'm toast, but really it's my main (and really only) massive damage dealer.

 

I thrive on KuS and some of the other flashpoints where stuff swarms and surrounds the group.

 

It's also probably my fault since I was used to having that extra 3k HP to pop off some damage mitigation powers to buy more time.

 

The thing is no one ever complained about my play in groups as to not doing my job with the higher HP. I was always one of the first to finish off a single enemy or a group. It was just that I was part of large OP group on Ilum taking down world bosses and one guy whispered me that my Marauder spec was all wrong so of course it got me to thinking.

[verfallen]

Issue is not the hp itself, its what you lose for that extra endurance.

 

On armoring, you lose strenght, which affect your dps (while end don't) and on the mods and enhancements you'll lose on power/crit and surge/acc respectively.

 

Now some BH pieces really have horrible itemnization, so if you first go for all pieces before min maxing your HP will most likely go too high before you correct it.

Edited February 28, 2013 by verfallen

[NogueiraA]

I have a marauder full 63 BiS, 2x Elite War hero relic, I have 21k HP.. If you have more than that you are doing something wrong, you are losing offensive stats.

[Aluvi]

If this is for pve, then basically your job is to output as much damage as possible and take as little damage as possible. Not sure why you want lots of hp and sacrifice dps output. The tank should be taking damage, not you. If a boys is smacking you around, you are doing it wrong. For pvp, it's all about burst dps and mitigating your damage taken a much as possible. Smash is an inferior pve spec also for raiding. It seems to me that this might be your first mmo or your first max level character in an mmo. If so, gratz on 50. It sounds like you need a basic introduction to how things work in an mmo.

[Mercathode]

If this is for pve, then basically your job is to output as much damage as possible and take as little damage as possible. Not sure why you want lots of hp and sacrifice dps output. The tank should be taking damage, not you. If a boys is smacking you around, you are doing it wrong. For pvp, it's all about burst dps and mitigating your damage taken a much as possible. Smash is an inferior pve spec also for raiding. It seems to me that this might be your first mmo or your first max level character in an mmo. If so, gratz on 50. It sounds like you need a basic introduction to how things work in an mmo.

 

I don't PvP....at least not for now....never been a fan of the free for all MMO ala kill each other including other games of this nature...so strictly PvE. Part of the turn off is the hackers and cheaters. Don't know if this game has them but I just stay away.

 

Thanks for the input and yes you are perceptive as it's my first (and probably only MMO). I have seen some high HP Marauders and thought it was weird.

 

Yes in a perfect world with on the ball healers and tanks and a DPS that doesn't stand in fire etc. yes max DPS is what you want.

 

However, the longer you can stay alive the more damage you do over time. Simple logic. Sacrificing an extra 400-500 damage for 3000 HP? Or vice-versa?

 

I'm in the process of changing the mods to being more damage heavy. I've started to see the benefit here in the last few days.

 

I have found just about as many people who think a Marauder Rage spec is just as viable as Carnage and Annihilation. I've tried all three and the Rage is the most fun to play and if played well, the Rage does just about as much damage.

 

Like I said I agree with the do as much damage as you can and have a low but respectable HP count....20-21k.

 

Thanks again.

[verfallen]

The logic "more hp = more time = more damage" doesn't work, simply if DPS are taking enough damage to kill them when at 20k hp, that extra 3k won't save you.

 

The reason for it is someone is doing something wrong, either :

 

You: are you taking damage that could be avoided (ground targeted aoe, standing too close to a player that is targeted by such and attack, standing in cones attack) ?

 

The other dps : are you hitting enrage timers? Lacking dps in burn phases? More hp on your part are probably not helping.

 

The tank : if the tank has issues holding threat, or controlling the mobs that must not stray from him. Some tanks give so much importance at controlling every mob, including thrash, that they drop a key mob that wreck havoc in the party, other have rotation/gear issue that makes holding threat hard for them.

 

The healer : if the tank (or tanks in ops) control the mobs well, the dps push the numbers needed, then the problem is most likely in your healers. Could be cleanse that aren't used, rotation (effectiveness and ressources), or gear (max healing output not there in high damage phases).

 

Roughly, pulling is both the responsability of dps and tank, as the dps must do their best to avoid pulling (ex. Using threat dumps on cd) just as tanks and healers have both a responsability in keeping the party alive with the tank reducing the total incoming damage to the party by taking it on him. If the tanks gear is not up to par, this could lead to "healing" issue that the healers need to focus too much heals on them, and the party find itself lacking.

 

In absolutely none of those situations, having more hp is a good thing that will help.

[Mercathode]

I know I sound like a broken record but thanks for all the input. My faith in forums has been bolstered by this thread.

 

Having played this new sort-of re-spec, I can pretty well see the difference. I was able to (with some help from heroic boosts) complete the 2 Belsavis endgame Heroics by myself w/ companion. Never could do that before.

 

Since then I've added more Power and sacrificed some crit and endurance and it's made a big difference on the shockwave smash as well as in the between focused damage.

 

The 3k HP is not worth it. You are all right of course. Thanks for the back and forth and constructive input.

 

Will make the game more enjoyable now.

[Aurojiin]

I thought I posted a second reply, but it looks like the forums ate it. I hope it was tasty.

 

I just wanted to add that a lot of your woes come from running Focus/Rage. You're playing a spec with immense, front-loaded AOE damage, in a game where the tanking classes all have poor AOE threat at best, and are constrained by a long CD on their AOE taunt.

 

There's nothing wrong with that per se (you can play the game how you want), although it's generally considered non-viable for serious progression operations because the single target damage is significantly lower. Just realise that these issues with threat are basically a fact of life for your spec.

[Thundergulch]

I have a marauder full 63 BiS, 2x Elite War hero relic, I have 21k HP.. If you have more than that you are doing something wrong, you are losing offensive stats.

 

Pretty much this.

[Mercathode]

I thought I posted a second reply, but it looks like the forums ate it. I hope it was tasty.

 

I just wanted to add that a lot of your woes come from running Focus/Rage. You're playing a spec with immense, front-loaded AOE damage, in a game where the tanking classes all have poor AOE threat at best, and are constrained by a long CD on their AOE taunt.

 

There's nothing wrong with that per se (you can play the game how you want), although it's generally considered non-viable for serious progression operations because the single target damage is significantly lower. Just realise that these issues with threat are basically a fact of life for your spec.

 

They must have b/c I just saw this reply today.

Yeah, it's something that I have to deal with. I probably take more threat than I should just b/c of that. When the tank sucks and the healer doesn't keep up, I have to stay out of the fray more which is counter to the spec I play.

 

The weakness is when enemies are cc'd and its close quarters. I have gotten quite adept at moving just far enough not to catch the napping enemy with smashes. Sometimes people panic and yell no AOE's!!!! but 99% of the time nobody wakes up.

 

It's all about enjoyment. I tried the other specs and they weren't as fun (for me).

[Mercathode]

Speaking of specs...the guy who originally told me I was spec'd all wrong said he had 1600 Power (non-buffed) and 2300 with a cube.

 

1st that would mean he would need an average of 114.29 points of power per slot of equip-able items (there are 14). Assuming he augmented everything with a +18 Power Augment that still leaves 96.29 avg Power rating per slot!!!!

 

2nd he said his strength was 1700ish and crit 30% with surge around 76% and 21k hp's AND accuracy around 106%.This doesn't seem likely with that much power

 

3d is there such a thing as a +700 Power Cube?

 

All with 63 level mods. This seems kind of high for 63 level mods. I'm mostly 61 and would have to give up ALLOT to attain 1600 Power. Was he full of BS?

[sithhunter_]

Probably, yes. ^^

 

I too am mostly 63'd out as a sentinel, forgive me for not knowing the correct lingo for marauders but i would suggest at least trying the bleed spec. It is typically the highest pure dps spec for raids, or at least that i have found. It's slightly more complex than smash monkey spec, but the results will be much better for you in general.

 

Im not looking at my stats right this second, but i know with my current spec and gear, stimmed and buffed, i sit at about 2150 STR, 106% ACC, 31% crit, 74% srg, and roughly 800 pwr with a DG relic that adds i believe 105 more. I sit at a little over 20k HP.

 

Smash is great for PvP but if you dont play that i would suggest at least trying the bleed spec, it will take some preactice and reitemizing your gear, but it will be worth it. Not saying that my itemization is perfect but it works for me, i run a hybrid spec and on a dummy put out roughly 2200 max was 2500 on the council in EV NiM.

 

As mentioned by you before you will have problems with cc's in progression raids if your smashing and will probably cause some wipes . Hope it helps and good luck

[Strainge]

I can't add much to this that others haven't nailed already, except 1 thing. You said your hp was that level "with a stim". Were you using a fortitude stim? You should be using a might stim. Always.

[verfallen]

Probably, yes. ^^

 

I too am mostly 63'd out as a sentinel, forgive me for not knowing the correct lingo for marauders but i would suggest at least trying the bleed spec. It is typically the highest pure dps spec for raids, or at least that i have found. It's slightly more complex than smash monkey spec, but the results will be much better for you in general.

 

Im not looking at my stats right this second, but i know with my current spec and gear, stimmed and buffed, i sit at about 2150 STR, 106% ACC, 31% crit, 74% srg, and roughly 800 pwr with a DG relic that adds i believe 105 more. I sit at a little over 20k HP.

 

Smash is great for PvP but if you dont play that i would suggest at least trying the bleed spec, it will take some preactice and reitemizing your gear, but it will be worth it. Not saying that my itemization is perfect but it works for me, i run a hybrid spec and on a dummy put out roughly 2200 max was 2500 on the council in EV NiM.

 

As mentioned by you before you will have problems with cc's in progression raids if your smashing and will probably cause some wipes . Hope it helps and good luck

 

 

Hybrid? Rage/anni? (focus/WM)

 

That build might look nice on short fight, there is no way you can compensate the loss of annihilate through smashes.