2.0 PVE Shadow tank builds.

[eventidephoenix]

it isn't too surprisingly actually

 

Once again, I can't thank you enough for your advice and effort! Will continue gearing my Shadow the right way, and hopefully one day healers won't hate me that much

[Envyyyyyyy]

For those who are serious into tanking raids etc..

 

22% Defense

55% Shield

40% Absorb

These are DRs.

Now with that being said....... some of those DRs are pretty steep so literally wasting the stat, and since we heal ourselves and that increases the higher HP we have (self heal is 15% of our HP) stacking endurance is a GOOD thing...

Spec into the Endurance and into the Defense.

Augment 32 Endurance/power augments.

Use Endurance heavy implants/earpiece

use Endurance heavy mods/enchantments etc..

You'll mitigate dmg with your 3 tanking stats, and then you'll also have active HP mitigation along with your rotation you'll be healing yourself back up.

 

Thanks,

[KeyboardNinja]

For those who are serious into tanking raids etc..

 

22% Defense

55% Shield

40% Absorb

These are DRs.

 

Uh… no? You basically just made that up. Diminishing Returns are a smooth curve, starting at 0 and increasing in severity as the rating value goes to infinity. In order to say that a diminishing return is at a *specific* value, we need to define what we mean by a "point of diminishing return". For the sake of argument, we will say that this point is the rating at which each additional point is giving you less than half the percentage value that it did at 0 rating. For the sake of reference, ideal stat values in Dread Guard pre-2.0 were just a hair above the half-values pretty much across the board for tanking stats.

 

The exact percentages where this half-value kicks in varies from class to class, since every class has a different set of bonuses. With a bit of calculus, we can generate the following table:

 

{shadow->{defense->31.,shield->45.,absorb->49.}}
{guardian->{defense->24.,shield->49.,absorb->45.}}
{vanguard->{defense->26.,shield->49.,absorb->49.}}

 

These are not the percentages at which it becomes pointless to further stack a particular stat. Rather, they are the values at which that particular stat is giving you less than 50% of the value that it gave you at 0 rating. Nothing more.

 

As you can see, your guestimated "points of diminishing return" weren't even in the ballpark.

 

Now with that being said....... some of those DRs are pretty steep so literally wasting the stat, and since we heal ourselves and that increases the higher HP we have (self heal is 15% of our HP) stacking endurance is a GOOD thing...

 

No. (related: the shadow/assassin self-heal is 12% of max HP, in addition to the stance heal which is not a function of HP)

 

All of the defensive stats have a poor rate of return compared to pre-2.0 (about half of what they used to be), but we're dealing with a very different set of stat budgets than we used to be. None of defense, shield or absorb are "wasted stats" in any sense of the word.

 

Spec into the Endurance and into the Defense.

 

Presumably you're talking about shadow/assassin tanking. I would agree with this bit of advice, though not for the reasons you gave.

 

Augment 32 Endurance/power augments.

Use Endurance heavy implants/earpiece

use Endurance heavy mods/enchantments etc..

 

No, no and no.

 

Dipstik did some excellent work a while back attempting to quantify the value of endurance as a survivability stat. I suggest you read his analysis, because it approaches this topic with a good deal of rigor and objective justification. End conclusion: it doesn't make any sense to stack endurance over mitigation in TOR except when you are a shadow/assassin tank and you can get endurance at a better than 1-to-1 exchange rate with mitigation. Thus, shadows/assassins should use the 31B mods, but everything else should be low-endurance, high-mitigation (including augments).

 

Leafy_Bug has a nice experience report on what happens when you stack only endurance. It's ugly. Don't go there.

 

You'll mitigate dmg with your 3 tanking stats, and then you'll also have active HP mitigation along with your rotation you'll be healing yourself back up.

 

Yes…? This is true regardless of how you stat, but under your statting policy, your mitigation becomes extremely marginal. You're attempting to justify this with the self-heal, but the self-heal doesn't grant endurance enough value such that it would be worth more than mitigation stats, even when you already have a fairly sizable mitigation stat budget. If you had a very small mitigation budget, the disparity would be even more extreme. Point for point, endurance does not provide the same mean survivability benefit that mitigation does.

 

I'm sorry, but your post is just wrong and very misleading. Especially when you open up by implying that your itemization strategy is the only valid one for "serious" raid tanking.

Edited April 24, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Jimmy_Sixx]

Uh… no? You basically just made that up.

 

Well if YOU know so much, Post something Up that works, and end this stupid bickering... Who cares who knows what... Help the OP by Posting the build that WILL work instead of arguing who has the bigger e-peen.

[KeyboardNinja]

Well if YOU know so much, Post something Up that works, and end this stupid bickering... Who cares who knows what... Help the OP by Posting the build that WILL work instead of arguing who has the bigger e-peen.

 

I have. Both here and on several other threads. I wasn't epeening; the point to my post was to very clearly contradict the post from Envyyyy, lest anyone take it as accurate.

[Harleyquincey]

Since some players have asked me to share my build from The Progenitor I'll throw mine in here as well, especially since it is an alternative including the "dreaded" Focused Insight.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Shadow#200322123212110123302-0-210230221

 

As to why I have made the choices I have made:

Slow Time, eventhough it is not a bad skill, forces me to take talents which I do not feel benefiting from much just in order to reach it and leaves me only with a half-bake solution to spend my surplus skillpoints on. In the build I use it may be confusing for some at first as to why I did it this way, however there's solid testing behind that.

 

Force in Balance deals an easy 2.800 to 3.500 damage (full elite gear, not minmaxed currently) and my self heals from using Telekinetic Throw (a channeling periodic damage) are around the 800 mark per tick and it causes ticks of around 1.800 damage. This makes FiB hit approx. 50% harder than Slow Time on my build with only a reasonably higher force usage / CD. Furthermore the Telekinetic Throw's damage is boosted, my self-heals are boosted via crits on the Telekinetic Throw. The sacrifice I make for that is giving up on a 45% chance to throw a second Project at an enemy which even then would not cause full damage itself + the shadow wrap which I do detest since for me - personally - it is very rare to find myself outaggroed or in a backstab position altogether, so those points are wasted to me. I also sacrifice some minor combat technique's effects but none of that is worth it for me much to be fair.

 

However I also cannot stress enough how well Keyboardninja's stat distribution solution works and while I disagree on the build usage, I do whole heartedly agree on the values and numbers behind the mitgiation.

Basically my build enhances the self-heals without a sacrifice to damage and that does go down the same vein as the usage of heal proc relics, which I also do agree on by the way. All of this makes the job to heal me tons and tons easier while not crippling me in any given way from my own testing and my own perspective.

 

Maybe someone will give it a try or a thought or two, I for one feel very happy with that build and am using it heavily. Oh and.. it is definitely possible to hit the suggested mitgiation stats of KBN with endurance-heavy items on elite gear, if you augment 2x Redoubt Augment and 12x Absorb Augment, using mostly Robust Most 30B and Vigilant Enhancement 30.

[Kitru]

Furthermore the Telekinetic Throw's damage is boosted, my self-heals are boosted via crits on the Telekinetic Throw.

 

Tk Throw isn't a periodic damage effect. Long ago, it was proven that "periodic damage effects" refers *exclusively* to DoT mechanics. Channeled effects aren't DoTs but are instead best thought up as multiple traditional hits, just like Saber Strike deals.

 

As such, you're not getting additional healing nor are you getting improved damage from your TkT. All you're getting is a slower TkT cycle (losing Slow Time increases your expected rate from ~12 seconds to ~16.5 seconds) and a 30m ranged attack instead of Slow Time, which, while FiB hits harder with each individual hit ends up being worse because it's got a 15 sec CD rather than a 9 sec CD. Shadow Wrap is actually a pretty substantial benefit as well since Shadow Strike actually hits a good deal harder than Double Strike, which Shadow Wrap very well justifies by reducing the cost by 50%.

 

The stuff you think you're getting, you're not really getting and the stuff you're sacrificing are *way* stronger than you are acting as if they are.

[Naldash]

Slow Time also reduces the damage output of all targets by 5%.

 

I did not like putting Shadow Strike in my rotation in the beginning but I decided to try it. Now I love it. It procs almost all the time and is only 2 force more than double strike(after psychokinesis and shadow wrap bonuses) and can proc particle acceleration.

[DrZekenka]

I have few questions.

It is better to go without a Shadow Wrap?

How are you going rotation without using Shadow Wrap?

Edited May 12, 2013 by DrZekenka

[Kitru]

It is better to go without a Shadow Wrap?

 

No. Shadow Wrap is a negligible decrease in self healing (yes, there is math to support that it's a negligible decrease; the difference is going to be less than overheal; if the difference in mitigation between two strategies is less than the average margin of overheal, it's negligible) while it represents a substantial and noticeable increase in threat and damage dealt. Without Shadow Wrap, you're losing something that you *would* notice in order to get something that you're only going to notice by religiously tracking your performance on a combat log parser.

 

How are you going rotation without using Shadow Wrap?

 

If you go without Shadow Wrap, the rotation is pretty much the same as with, except that, when you would be using Shadow Strike, you instead fill it with another Double Strike. That's, honestly, what Shadow Wrap does: it allows you to directly replace one of your Double Strikes with a Shadow Strike once every 10 seconds or so (it actually averages out closer to 15 seconds for me because you have to get it to proc and sometimes you the buff drops without you using it because you need to fill in GCDs with stuff like Force Breach).

[Snarkasms]

So please be kind... I've been reading for a while and thinking to myself, and I'm seriously considering a 36-8-2 build, and I want to be proven wrong. It's basically this.

 

Notable (according to other builds I've seen) sacrifices include:

 

No Martial Prowess (out-of-stealth spinning kick)

- seems PVPish, doesn't really work on ops bosses, right?

No Mental Fortitude (straight extra endurance)

- stacking endurance has a bad feeling for me, even when shadow tanks regen percentages of total HP

No Expertise (technique-dealt damage increase by 18%)

- don't know atm how much damage comes from the technique, so don't know how valuable 18% is)

No Pyschokinesis (reduction in force cost of double strike, spinning strike, project)

- because from everything else I've picked up in the tree (and read), shadows are basically swimming in force anyway, so why bother with a 1- or 3-force reduction on these?

 

I ask because I sacrificed 5 points I could have put towards some of those things and put them into Shadow's Respite (extra force regen out of stealth) in order to get to Shadow's Mark (6% increased damage on shadow strike). Given that I can use this from the front while tanking thanks to Shadow Wrap every 10s or so, why would I not take an extra 6% damage there in lieu of the other missing skills listed above?

 

Input desired. Math even more welcome!

[Kitru]

Input desired. Math even more welcome!

 

What's really going to hurt you is not having Psychokinesis: my own build doesn't have Mental Fortitude, Expertise, or the OoC Spinning kick, so those aren't anywhere near required. Psychokinesis, however, *is*.

 

Let me explain in general terms first: Project got made cheaper, but the big benefit was that the 30% reduction is cost is applied *before* the 6 point reduction in Force cost from Psychokinesis. On top of that, because of the reduction in Project cost, we finally have the Force to blow on Double Strike, and, because Psychokinesis makes *that* cheaper too, it's even *better*.

 

So, here I'll get into the math. With Psychokinesis and by following the now-standard 2.0 tank priority, you'll use Project 2 times and Double Strike once every 12 seconds (Shadow Strike is roughly once each cycle as well). That's 14 Force every 12 seconds provided by Psychokinesis, which means that, without Psychokinesis 2 out of every 3 12 second rotations you do are going to have to go without either a Double Strike or a Shadow Strike and instead be replaced by a Saber Strike (which does a pittance of damage compared to DS or ShS). Shadow's Respite, since you're a tank, is only going to apply those benefits for the first 6 seconds of the fight. In a group context, if a fight lasts 5 minutes, this means you're only getting 24 Force for the entire 5 minute duration of the fight, unless you're willing to sacrifice all of your threat by using Force Cloak at ready intervals. Even *if* you used Force Cloak actively, you'd *still* end up losing out on the resources generated because you'd make more in 2 12 second TkT rotations than you would from Shadow's Respite, which, at best, you're getting once every 2 minutes.

 

Now, to compare the 6% increase in Shadow Strike to what you're losing out on: the 6% increase to Shadow Strike (~3k damage for me, so that's 180 damage) is going to be less than the difference between a *single* Saber Strike and Double Strike (the difference is something like 300 damage for me; I'm not in game atm and am out of tow so I can't check even check, but that seems about right, if not a little short). Since the loss of Psychokinesis can actually mean the loss of a Shadow Strike instead of a Double Strike thanks to resource costs, it's actually even higher (ShS deals something like 2.5 times as much damage as SS, iirc). As such, in your attempt to *gain* damage with ShS, you're actually *losing* damage.

 

Psychokinesis is pretty much absolutely required for a Shadow tank. Without it, you're sacrificing *way* too much Force (12.2% of your resource regeneration would be negated without it).

[Snarkasms]

I was hoping for a wall of text answer. Perfect, Kitru, thanks. I leveled as a DPS since I have two other tanks, but want to play around with a shadow tank, and was just kind of theorycrafting while the servers were down.

 

So 3 points left when 2 go into PK; time to see if they go into celerity/martial prowess, expertise, or mental fortitude.

 

Thank you!

Edited May 14, 2013 by Snarkasms

[Kitru]

So 3 points left when 2 go into PK; time to see if they go into celerity/martial prowess, expertise, or mental fortitude.

 

I actually wouldn't take Shadow's Respite either: the contributions it provides are so small over the course of time that you're pretty much never going to notice them. It doesn't help that Shadow tanks are actually pretty resource cost neutral with a slow burn through their resources at worst, especially at the start of a fight, so you shouldn't even really *need* the 24 Force in the first 6 seconds.

 

The basic run down is 36/3/5+3. I put my 3 into Force Synergy, which, if you want to get more out of DS and ShS, is probably your best bet: it's a bit more bursty than Expertise, but I likes my higher crit rate on those. The reason why there isn't a standard placement for the 3 points is because math was done back on the PTS that demonstrated that the differences in where they're placed are largely a wash: Mental Fortitude adds all of ~100 hp, the increases to DPS from Expertise and Force Synergy are in the teens, Celerity has the greatest improvements but is only useful in specific situations where you need to interrupt, run more often, or break CC, none of which happen often enough in Ops to really act like a game changer. Pretty much anywhere you put them will be something of a waste, so don't sweat it: just pick one of them that catches your attention and drop the points in.

[Snarkasms]

Yeah, don't worry, Respite was only there to get to the 6% for ShS. Those two are reassigned to PK and the last three are the free ones.

[Thrombin]

I was checking out Kiru's build from the start of this thread and I notice that the choice for the 3 points seem to be between Mental Fortitude and Force Synergy.

 

Is there some reason why we're not considering putting 1 point in Force Synergy and the remaining 2 in Focused Insight? Presumably 1% extra hit points once vs. a chance to add 1% extra hit points multiple times has got to be a consideration?

[Kitru]

Is there some reason why we're not considering putting 1 point in Force Synergy and the remaining 2 in Focused Insight? Presumably 1% extra hit points once vs. a chance to add 1% extra hit points multiple times has got to be a consideration?

 

Focused insight is absolutely, completely *worthless* for Shadow tanks. "Periodic damage" refers *exclusively* to DoT based effects. Neither Infiltration nor Kinetic Combat have *any* DoT effects. It's a common misconception that Telekinetic Throw is a periodic damage effect but it's been proven multiple times that it isn't: TkT is, functionally, just like Saber Strike wherein it's a single attack that deals damage multiple times (Saber Strike is divided into 3 discrete attacks that all hit, miss, crit, or shield separately; TkT is just like that only spread out across the channel).

 

The simple way to determine if it's a "periodic damage" effect for *anything* that it might affect is if the continuous damage is applied via a debuff on the target or not. If there is a debuff on the target that deals the damage, it's a periodic damage effect. If there isn't, it's not.

 

If Focused Insight *did* affect HSx3 TkT, it might be a different story, though it still wouldn't be that great. As a Shadow tank, you're got less than 20% crit chance. TkT is used once every 12 seconds on average, which, with 4 attacks, equates to 1 attack every 3 seconds. With a 20% chance to crit, on average, you'll get one crit every 5 attacks. Combine those 2 and, over time, you'll be getting 1% hp every 15 seconds. With 35k hp, you'd be getting a whopping 23 hp/sec from those 2 talent points. For comparison, CT alone adds ~60 hp/sec and HSx3 TkT adds another ~233. Those 2 talent points would be adding less than the healing proc relic.

[Thrombin]

Focused insight is absolutely, completely *worthless* for Shadow tanks. "Periodic damage" refers *exclusively* to DoT based effects. Neither Infiltration nor Kinetic Combat have *any* DoT effects. It's a common misconception that Telekinetic Throw is a periodic damage effect but it's been proven multiple times that it isn't: TkT is, functionally, just like Saber Strike wherein it's a single attack that deals damage multiple times (Saber Strike is divided into 3 discrete attacks that all hit, miss, crit, or shield separately; TkT is just like that only spread out across the channel).

 

Looking thought the skill descriptions it says Force Breach and Mind Crush do periodic damage? Sorry I'm a bit of a novice, do we not use those or are they not DOT?

 

If Focused Insight *did* affect HSx3 TkT, it might be a different story, though it still wouldn't be that great. As a Shadow tank, you're got less than 20% crit chance. TkT is used once every 12 seconds on average, which, with 4 attacks, equates to 1 attack every 3 seconds. With a 20% chance to crit, on average, you'll get one crit every 5 attacks. Combine those 2 and, over time, you'll be getting 1% hp every 15 seconds. With 35k hp, you'd be getting a whopping 23 hp/sec from those 2 talent points. For comparison, CT alone adds ~60 hp/sec and HSx3 TkT adds another ~233. Those 2 talent points would be adding less than the healing proc relic.

 

CT wasn't the comparison, though, it was Mental Fortitude or a maxed out Force Synergy. Would 1% every 15 secs not be better than 1% once?

[Kitru]

Looking thought the skill descriptions it says Force Breach and Mind Crush do periodic damage? Sorry I'm a bit of a novice, do we not use those or are they not DOT?

 

Force Breach changes its effects depending on what Technique you're using when you use it. For Combat Technique and Shadow Technique, it's direct damage. It's only for Force Technique that it is a DoT. Mind Crush *is* a DoT but it is completely untouched by Shadow tanks and Infiltration Shadows. Only Balance uses it. Only Balance uses *any* DoTs.

 

CT wasn't the comparison, though, it was Mental Fortitude or a maxed out Force Synergy. Would 1% every 15 secs not be better than 1% once?

 

I told you about all of the various self heal mechanisms available to a Shadow tank to demonstrate how tiny it ends up being. Even if it applied (which I feel I must reiterate, it doesn't), it wouldn't be a huge deal.

 

If it *were* actually applied to TkT (which it's not, as I have said), it *would* be useful but not terribly useful. Of course, as I demonstrated with the terrible contributions, that's not so much a demonstrating factor of Focused Insight's usefulness but the general worthlessness of the last 3 points for a Shadow tank (Mental Fortitude is utter rubbish and Expertise/Force Synergy are ~18 DPS iirc, so they're next to nothing as well).

 

It's a moot point anyways because Focused Insight does *nothing* for Shadow tanks because Shadow tanks just don't use anything that qualifies as periodic damage.

[Thrombin]

Thanks very much!

[Moonheart_S]

It's a moot point anyways because Focused Insight does *nothing* for Shadow tanks because Shadow tanks just don't use anything that qualifies as periodic damage.

 

It does. Force Stun.

*run outside after this useless point knowing well how take Focused insight for Force Stun is ridiculously inefficient*

[Kitru]

It does. Force Stun.

 

Force Stun is direct, up front damage. The debuff is for the stun effect, not the damage.

[Grue_Hunter]

I went with 41-2-3 (2 in Upheaval, 2 in Force Synergy and 1 in Jedi Resistance). It's been working pretty well so far. At the end of the game, I'm usually in the top 4 for medals with it.

[Kitru]

I went with 41-2-3 (2 in Upheaval, 2 in Force Synergy and 1 in Jedi Resistance). It's been working pretty well so far. At the end of the game, I'm usually in the top 4 for medals with it.

 

This thread is explicitly about PvE specs. Performance in PvP isn't really a viable metric (and neither is that spec for PvE purposes since you're reducing your mitigation and destroying your resource maintenance).

[ckoneful]

Good read... now to actually get to 55 >_>