Expertise: Max or 1200 - Debate has ended

[ArchangelLBC]

Lets be clear guys, you aren't dying that much more quickly either. These are the kind of exaggerations that make people start actually saying lower expertise is better when the increase has always been known to be marginal.

[Scotland]

Lets be clear guys, you aren't dying that much more quickly either. These are the kind of exaggerations that make people start actually saying lower expertise is better when the increase has always been known to be marginal.

 

It depends on how you look at it or what context/situation you put it in, when facing multiple targets attacking you, that bit of dmg reduction, goes alooooooong way.

[Wainamoinen]

Jesus, 17 pages lol, so which is it then 1200 or max exp?

 

Answer: It depends. What's your preferred balance point beteween damage and mitigation?

 

I would like to add "well done" to the OP for initially looking to find some numbers to address the expertise/pwer argument, but especially to cashogy (congratulations on the rebirth, I hope it wasn't too traumatic) for putting up actual game-system-based evidence to answer it (and also admitting he could have just taken a mean rather than running 10k examples....).

 

It really is refreshing to see an attempt to find actual answers, and not just go on "how it feels" and what your ADHD mate told you he was sure about.

 

 

I created something similar for myself when trying to decid which stats to get, and may have come across a couple of things that people want to consider. Please do check them, if you wish.

 

1) When looking at the benefit in mitigation of moving from one expertise to another, it's easy to underestimate it if you just look at the bald percentage change.

 

Example.

Mitigation at 1214 = 19.09%

Mitigation at 1396 = 20.19%

 

So you're taking 20.19 - 19.09 = 1.10% less damage by going from 1396 to 1214 expertise, right? Wrong.

 

At 1214 you're taking 100-19.09 = 80.91% of damage incoming

At 1396 you're taking 100-20.19 = 79.81% of damage incoming

 

So by going from 1214 to 1396 you've actually cut the damage you'll take by 1-(0.7981/0.8091) = 1.36%

 

Similarly, the advantage of moving from one level of expertise (or any stat) to another is the percentage increase in your damage output.

 

The state you want to reach is one where adding 1 unit of any stat (be it Crit, Power, Exepertise whatever) has the same % benefit. You can't always do this (i.e. Surge), but the closer you can come to it the better.

 

Then there are the arguments about burst v sustained, and how to value mitigation v damage.

 

2) The example Cashogy used was Flame Burst, a Tech attack. While the same equations hold for other Tech (or Force, I believe) attacks, Ranged and Melee are different in that they include functions dependent on Main Hand Damage (and Offhand Damage for double attacks) and lose bonus damage from Tech/Force Power.

 

I checked against a ranged Pyro ability, Rail Shot, and for this it seemed that Power had a greater effect than it did for Flame Burst, the Tech attack.

 

The upshot of this is that where exactly your Power/Expertise tradeoff balance point is will vary depending upon what type of abilites you use, and how much damage you do with each.

 

That's why I took a record of my combat logs to see how much I was using each ability, so that I could come up with a general approximation of how much change in my damage output I could expect for any stat change (assuming I didn't change what I was doing).

 

 

I'm not trying to pick holes, but rather add to a constructive discussion so we can get a better answer. Much respect to those taking a rational approach.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[islander]

It depends on how you look at it or what context/situation you put it in, when facing multiple targets attacking you, that bit of dmg reduction, goes alooooooong way.

 

It really does. When you're the last man on a node trying to hold off 2-3 powerful advesaries just long enough for help to arrive, that stuff can keep you alive that extra second or two it takes to succeed in your defense.

 

I dropped to 1200 once trying it out, and at least for me, I really saw a difference (negative) in my TTD (time to die when focused). I mean dead DPS is 0 dps, and some gates like hypergates take forever to open.

[Scotland]

I mean dead DPS is 0 dps

 

 

/Thread?

[CharterMonkKent]

It depends on the class & ability priority. It's not a cut and dry like many people are making it, and posting misinformation on the forums is always bad for the community.

 

Are you pugging? Are you on a rated team? If you are on a rated team you want the extra dps and HP over <1% mitigation. You have a tank and healers to keep you alive. 5 dps all pulling increased damage is more beneficial than 5 dps with slight mitigation increase.

 

Again, it depends on class and spec.

 

For instance my concealment gear on my operative is below 1100 expertise. I pull 5k+ hidden strikes and back stabs. I played 4 WZs last night and died twice. My play style does not require the mitigation. Now if I'm on my PT (no escape mechanics) then I would never dip as low as 1100.

[Scotland]

Are you pugging? Are you on a rated team? If you are on a rated team you want the extra dps and HP over <1% mitigation. You have a tank and healers to keep you alive. 5 dps all pulling increased damage is more beneficial than 5 dps with slight mitigation increase.

 

No, just no.

[Smashbrother]

Or you want the PvE Set Bonus for the PvP set, then you pretty much have to use the Campaign / Dread Guard armorings. In case of a dps operative for example you most certainly want that extra 15% critical chance from PvE Set and the prolonged duration from PvP Set, so you will go for 3 PvP Set-Armorings and 2 PvE Set-Armorings. - And maybe you even want to switch for healing so you need another Set of Healing armorings... pain in the *** to grind.

 

Soooooo not true.

 

You can also use belt/bracer/OH armoring in the free tionese gear everyone gets. Belt/bracer/OH armorings do not have a set bonus attached to them.

[Smashbrother]

It depends on the class & ability priority. It's not a cut and dry like many people are making it, and posting misinformation on the forums is always bad for the community.

 

Are you pugging? Are you on a rated team? If you are on a rated team you want the extra dps and HP over <1% mitigation. You have a tank and healers to keep you alive. 5 dps all pulling increased damage is more beneficial than 5 dps with slight mitigation increase.

 

Again, it depends on class and spec.

 

For instance my concealment gear on my operative is below 1100 expertise. I pull 5k+ hidden strikes and back stabs. I played 4 WZs last night and died twice. My play style does not require the mitigation. Now if I'm on my PT (no escape mechanics) then I would never dip as low as 1100.

 

You really think 17 more damage on my sage's TKT when I go from max to 1200 exp is going to make an actual difference?

[Scotland]

You really think 17 more damage on my sage's TKT when I go from max to 1200 exp is going to make an actual difference?

 

Thats what made me lol.

[CharterMonkKent]

You really think 17 more damage on my sage's TKT when I go from max to 1200 exp is going to make an actual difference?

 

No, because he wouldn't be in a rated and sage/sorc's are good targets for all DPS. There is no comparison between your sage and my conceal oper.

 

Increased damage on two pyros, a combat mara, rage jugg and a sniper. Will make a difference. Especially since that dps will be focus fire. This game isn't about 1v1s.

 

Also, like others have mentioned there are classes that require the PvE set bonus to be at their highest lvl in pvp. My conceal oper is required to have less expertise to gain the crit chance boost (pve set bonus). The damage from that alone is worth losing the 100 expertise.

Edited February 5, 2013 by CharterMonkKent

[Xerain]

No, because he wouldn't be in a rated and sage/sorc's are good targets for all DPS. There is no comparison between your sage and my conceal oper.

 

Increased damage on two pyros, a combat mara, rage jugg and a sniper. Will make a difference. Especially since that dps will be focus fire. This game isn't about 1v1s.

 

Also, like others have mentioned there are classes that require the PvE set bonus to be at their highest lvl in pvp. My conceal oper is required to have less expertise to gain the crit chance boost (pve set bonus). The damage from that alone is worth losing the 100 expertise.

 

You don't have to lose expertise to get pve set bonuses :|

[CharterMonkKent]

You don't have to lose expertise to get pve set bonuses :|

 

If you're talking about using a PvE shell and 2 pvp off hand armorings. There is a reason they cannot do this, opers do not have off hand armorings.

[Scotland]

No, because he wouldn't be in a rated and sage/sorc's are good targets for all DPS. There is no comparison between your sage and my conceal oper.

 

Increased damage on two pyros, a combat mara, rage jugg and a sniper. Will make a difference. Especially since that dps will be focus fire. This game isn't about 1v1s.

 

Also, like others have mentioned there are classes that require the PvE set bonus to be at their highest lvl in pvp. My conceal oper is required to have less expertise to gain the crit chance boost (pve set bonus). The damage from that alone is worth losing the 100 expertise.

 

wait you have 2 pyro's combat mara, rage jugg and a sniper in your team.

 

 

So you have 2 healers and 1 tank?

 

you wont last a minute against a 2 gaurd comp, let alone a 3.

[Xerain]

If you're talking about using a PvE shell and 2 pvp off hand armorings. There is a reason they cannot do this, opers do not have off hand armorings.

 

Elite War Hero belt and bracers both have armorings that aren't bound to slot. So yes you can do it.

[CharterMonkKent]

wait you have 2 pyro's combat mara, rage jugg and a sniper in your team.

 

 

So you have 2 healers and 1 tank?

 

you wont last a minute against a 2 gaurd comp, let alone a 3.

 

nice. good way to change topic

[Scotland]

nice. good way to change topic

 

Its better than talking rubbish, like yourself.

[CharterMonkKent]

Elite War Hero belt and bracers both have armorings that aren't bound to slot. So yes you can do it.

 

ok fair enough. one can grind for it

[CharterMonkKent]

Its better than talking rubbish, like yourself.

 

haha

[ArchangelLBC]

It depends on how you look at it or what context/situation you put it in, when facing multiple targets attacking you, that bit of dmg reduction, goes alooooooong way.

 

It really doesn't though. Not for a DPS. Either you have the cooldowns etc to keep yourself up or give your healers time to heal you or you don't. You're going to die very quickly either way. You aren't saving yourself some huge amount of time alive by using full expertise under focus fire, especially since a lot of people die to overkill from very large burst. 1% off of 3 5k hits when you only had 10k HP is not going to stretch your time to live at all.

 

One might make that argument with tanks but that becomes a mitigation vs TTL endurance building, and for some reason I have a hard time thinking that a little over 1% mitigation is going to be better for them than an extra 1.5k HP, especially when things like WZ medpacks and certain defensive cooldowns work based off of a % of your actual HP.

 

That extra HP might very well be marginal too (I'll honestly let the tanks fight it out, but I've seen 1100 expertise tanks with very high HP who are ridiculously hard to take down), but that's kind of my point. Any actual gains you're seeing from zeroing in on the exact right amount of expertise vs other stats is going to be mostly unnoticeable. Everything else is placebo.

[Smashbrother]

No, because he wouldn't be in a rated and sage/sorc's are good targets for all DPS. There is no comparison between your sage and my conceal oper.

 

Increased damage on two pyros, a combat mara, rage jugg and a sniper. Will make a difference. Especially since that dps will be focus fire. This game isn't about 1v1s.

 

Also, like others have mentioned there are classes that require the PvE set bonus to be at their highest lvl in pvp. My conceal oper is required to have less expertise to gain the crit chance boost (pve set bonus). The damage from that alone is worth losing the 100 expertise.

 

My point is the damage increase from going from max to 1200 is THAT marginal to the point of worthlessness.

 

5 people FF one guy is going to kill them regardless whether you're at max or 1200.

 

And I already pointed out you can use armoring from belt/bracers/OH since they have no set bonus attached in a previous post.

[Smashbrother]

It really doesn't though. Not for a DPS. Either you have the cooldowns etc to keep yourself up or give your healers time to heal you or you don't. You're going to die very quickly either way. You aren't saving yourself some huge amount of time alive by using full expertise under focus fire, especially since a lot of people die to overkill from very large burst. 1% off of 3 5k hits when you only had 10k HP is not going to stretch your time to live at all.

 

One might make that argument with tanks but that becomes a mitigation vs TTL endurance building, and for some reason I have a hard time thinking that a little over 1% mitigation is going to be better for them than an extra 1.5k HP, especially when things like WZ medpacks and certain defensive cooldowns work based off of a % of your actual HP.

 

That extra HP might very well be marginal too (I'll honestly let the tanks fight it out, but I've seen 1100 expertise tanks with very high HP who are ridiculously hard to take down), but that's kind of my point. Any actual gains you're seeing from zeroing in on the exact right amount of expertise vs other stats is going to be mostly unnoticeable. Everything else is placebo.

 

Exactly, which is why it's funny that people are spending millions upon millions of credits for really nothing. They just think it's better.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Smashbrother

[CharterMonkKent]

My point is the damage increase from going from max to 1200 is THAT marginal to the point of worthlessness.

 

5 people FF one guy is going to kill them regardless whether you're at max or 1200.

 

And I already pointed out you can use armoring from belt/bracers/OH since they have no set bonus attached in a previous post.

 

i don't think it's worthless. any increase is an increase. but i make money off of running numbers.

 

basically it's this if you roll with 1200ish exptertise (if you are dps):

you gain marginal damage

you gain marginal HP

you lose marginal damage reduction

you die when people focus fire you regardless

rateds are about focus fire

 

people can take away whatever conclusion they want

Edited February 5, 2013 by CharterMonkKent

[islander]

Elite War Hero belt and bracers both have armorings that aren't bound to slot. So yes you can do it.

 

ding ding ding!

[Scotland]

It really doesn't though. Not for a DPS. Either you have the cooldowns etc to keep yourself up or give your healers time to heal you or you don't. You're going to die very quickly either way. You aren't saving yourself some huge amount of time alive by using full expertise under focus fire, especially since a lot of people die to overkill from very large burst. 1% off of 3 5k hits when you only had 10k HP is not going to stretch your time to live at all.

 

One might make that argument with tanks but that becomes a mitigation vs TTL endurance building, and for some reason I have a hard time thinking that a little over 1% mitigation is going to be better for them than an extra 1.5k HP, especially when things like WZ medpacks and certain defensive cooldowns work based off of a % of your actual HP.

 

That extra HP might very well be marginal too (I'll honestly let the tanks fight it out, but I've seen 1100 expertise tanks with very high HP who are ridiculously hard to take down), but that's kind of my point. Any actual gains you're seeing from zeroing in on the exact right amount of expertise vs other stats is going to be mostly unnoticeable. Everything else is placebo.

 

I have to disagree with you there.

By alot.