My ideas for Merc/Mando

[NotAnyOldName]

Hey everyone, so I know what your thinking 'not another thread about Merc/Mando's' but I truely feel we need some love from BW and the more this issue is brought up the more likely it is to get attention, hopefully. I have been playing the class in pvp for some time now, both a Commando and a Mercenary (seems im a sucker for punishment ), and I do really enjoy the playstyle of them in both DPS specs; I have had trouble adjusting to healing and rarely play it so I won't be discussing it in this thread.

 

I have seen a lot of ideas thrown around the forums, many that completely change the way the class is played, some being good others not so good. I feel that though we are underpowered we are not an entirely worthless class. True we take a great deal more skill to play then some other classes but that is half the fun. We just need some relatively minor buffs to make us on par with the rest.

 

For me the Arsenal/Gunnery spec is much like a turret that is easily moveable and able to do great damage, not too unlike a Sniper but different in that we are slightly more mobile and are somewhat tankier due to heavy armour. Pyrotech/Assault Specialist for me is a run and gun style spec, it is great fun to play a more mobile ranged dps spec and to kite the melee around.

 

So I have come up with some ideas, possibly not original but I haven't taken them from anyone else, that are not a majorly drastic change to the AC but that I feel would help us out immensely and bring us much closer to being on par with everyone else.

 

General

• Concussive round made instant cast AOE mez, like Flash Bang.
  
• Hold the line given as an AC ability, Desperately need this one.
  

 

Arsenal/Gunnery

• Reactive shield talented to have:
  
  • its CD reduced to 1m.
    
  • make you immune to interrupts and leaps/pulls.
    

  [*]Root on the knockback, same as snipers.

 

Pyrotech/Assault Specialist

• Increase % chance to proc Plasma cell from auto attack.
  
• Reduce heat/ammo cost of missile blast/explosive round and give it a high % chance to proc plasma cell.
  
• Powersurge/Tech Override CD to be reduced to 1m, talented.
  

 

 

Keep in mind that I haven't thought of any impacts on PVE, as I am primarily a PVP player. Also feel free to throw your opinion out there on my suggestions or add your own to my list etc.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read over it, I look forward to seeing your input.

Edited January 6, 2013 by NotAnyOldName

[Canarak]

Behold the sound of the devs not caring. IT'S DEAFENING!!!!

[cashogy]

 

General

• Concussive round made instant cast AOE mez, like Flash Bang.
  
• Hold the line given as an AC ability, Desperately need this one.
  

 

Arsenal/Gunnery

• Reactive shield talented to have:
  
  • its CD reduced to 1m.
    
  • make you immune to interrupts and leaps/pulls.
    

  [*]Root on the knockback, same as snipers.

 

Pyrotech/Assault Specialist

• Increase % chance to proc Plasma cell from auto attack.
  
• Reduce heat/ammo cost of missile blast/explosive round and give it a high % chance to proc plasma cell.
  
• Powersurge/Tech Override CD to be reduced to 1m, talented.
  

 

i like the change to Concussive Round, good idea.

 

the rest is meh imo. changes to Reactive Shield are band-aid fixes to the problem of being 100% cast dependent.

 

Assault/Pyro doesnt need any change to auto-attack proc rate. its already ~70% per Rapid Shot/Hammer Shot.

[Jherad]

OP. Ask yourself one question:

 

Why would a team bring a commando/merc over another class?

 

Right now, that question is obvious - skill and equipment being equal, they wouldn't. Any fixes need to address that one question, whether it be through improved damage output, utility or whatever. If there is a clearly better option, then we're not fixed. Little tweaks don't help, because we have some fundamental problems.

 

(I'm not saying we have to be head and shoulders better at something, just not obviously worse in total)

Edited January 6, 2013 by Jherad

[NotAnyOldName]

Behold the sound of the devs not caring. IT'S DEAFENING!!!!

Thanks for your enlightening input.

the rest is meh imo. changes to Reactive Shield are band-aid fixes to the problem of being 100% cast dependent.

 

Assault/Pyro doesnt need any change to auto-attack proc rate. its already ~70% per Rapid Shot/Hammer Shot.

Firstly I was under the impression it was only a 16% chance to proc, perhaps I am wrong. So you want the class to lose it's cast and all be instant? It could work well, but im sure, rather ironically, we would get yelled at as being OP if that was the case.

 

OP. Ask yourself one question:

 

Why would a team bring a commando/merc over another class?

 

Right now, that question is obvious - skill and equipment being equal, they wouldn't. Any fixes need to address that one question, whether it be through improved damage output, utility or whatever. If there is a clearly better option, then we're not fixed. Little tweaks don't help, because we have some fundamental problems.

 

(I'm not saying we have to be head and shoulders better at something, just not obviously worse in total)

 

I do agree with you on that for Ranked, but for pugging we aren't too bad and the tweaks would help immensely in my opinion. We are 1 of 3 ranged dps classes, Sniper is a stationary turret with a lot of cc, sorc can bubble and off heal well plus slow with their channels, what do you suggest Merc/Mando should be good at? we do have a knockback that is useful, we have a cleanse of tech afflictions (leg shot, dots etc) to name 2 utilities we have. We also have awesome AOE that can wreck teams should they be silly enough to clump together, plus easy AOE to stop caps.

Edited January 6, 2013 by NotAnyOldName

[Jherad]

I do agree with you on that for Ranked, but for pugging we aren't too bad and the tweaks would help immensely in my opinion. We are 1 of 3 ranged dps classes, Sniper is a stationary turret with a lot of cc, sorc can bubble and off heal well plus slow with their channels, what do you suggest Merc/Mando should be good at? we do have a knockback that is useful, we have a cleanse of tech afflictions (leg shot, dots etc) to name 2 utilities we have. We also have awesome AOE that can wreck teams should they be silly enough to clump together, plus easy AOE to stop caps.

 

If you're not going to balance for ranked, then what's the point?

 

Pugging is 98% about which team has the most people unable to walk and breathe at the same time. If you're balancing on what our class can do in the right hands vs some random pug, then we'll get nothing but nerfs - which, you know, has been the problem.

 

Our knockback is mildly useful, but already covered mostly by the more desirable shadows and sages. Our AOE isn't awesome, it's ok, and to put it mildly completely overshadowed by smashers (and from a cap denial perspective, sabo slingers). The defacto healers of choice for RWZs (scoundrels) can cleanse what we can.

 

Everything is covered by the cookie cutter team makeup, by better classes.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Jherad

[cashogy]

Firstly I was under the impression it was only a 16% chance to proc, perhaps I am wrong. So you want the class to lose it's cast and all be instant? It could work well, but im sure, rather ironically, we would get yelled at as being OP if that was the case.

 

it is a 16% chance per shot. i believe Rapid Shots/Hammer Shots is 6 shots in one attack, leading to ~70% proc rate. the math is out there if you would like to double check, cba to link it.

 

and Zach covered the rest of your post. i agree with him

[General_Aldo]

Merc/Commando need to learn their place in warzones. Their only place right now is healing. If you are a dps Merc/Commando. Just stop.

[Xerain]

HUNTER TRAPS GO! MOAR GROUP UTILITY.

 

Placed AoE snare.

Placed Mez.

Area DOT that ticks for x amount of seconds.

GO!

[Phrase]

 

Firstly I was under the impression it was only a 16% chance to proc, perhaps I am wrong. So you want the class to lose it's cast and all be instant? It could work well, but im sure, rather ironically, we would get yelled at as being OP if that was the case.

 

70% was calculated based on 7 ticks. The math is 1-((1-.16)^7)=.7049 or ~70.5%.

 

That doesn't take into account misses from the offhand and it isn't a hard-coded proc rate; it's a just how probability works over multiple attempts.

[cashogy]

HUNTER TRAPS GO! MOAR GROUP UTILITY.

 

Placed AoE snare.

Placed Mez.

Area DOT that ticks for x amount of seconds.

GO!

 

Xerain, why are you here

[ArchangelLBC]

HUNTER TRAPS GO! MOAR GROUP UTILITY.

 

Placed AoE snare.

Placed Mez.

Area DOT that ticks for x amount of seconds.

GO!

 

At this point I'd take pretty much anything, as long as they don't nerf gunnery for PVE.

 

The instant concussion round change is definitely needed, but until we get some sort of unique utility, fixing our damage will only solve half the problem.

 

But I'd take that right now even so.

[Xerain]

Xerain, why are you here

 

Oh cause that wouldn't help the class and bring some much needed group utility to the class right?

 

Imagine running up to mid in Alderaan and droping the Freeze traps to have a melee run up to you and OH ICE BLOCKED FOR 8 SECONDS! While you run away and he does nothing.

 

 

Or to drop the frost trap in a huttball on a side ramp while their ball carrier is going to run up and oh hey their whole group is slowed! Where your team can now drop a bunch of AOE damage on them while they're on the thing.

 

Dropping a damage trap on a door in void star so it interrupts someone doing to cap... GO.

 

 

 

Yeah those ideas don't sound good Cash?

[cashogy]

Oh cause that wouldn't help the class and bring some much needed group utility to the class right?

 

Imagine running up to mid in Alderaan and droping the Freeze traps to have a melee run up to you and OH ICE BLOCKED FOR 8 SECONDS! While you run away and he does nothing.

 

 

Or to drop the frost trap in a huttball on a side ramp while their ball carrier is going to run up and oh hey their whole group is slowed! Where your team can now drop a bunch of AOE damage on them while they're on the thing.

 

Dropping a damage trap on a door in void star so it interrupts someone doing to cap... GO.

 

 

 

Yeah those ideas don't sound good Cash?

 

1. i never played WoW so have no idea what freeze traps, frost traps and ice blocking is.

2. i would like a AOE snare

3. i would like a drop-and-forget AOE damage skill (similar to Snipers Plasma Probe)

 

but what do those things do to solve the core problems with Merc? nothing.

 

cool shiny new abilities are great, but if they do not address the key issues of the class (no mobility, no interrupt/CC immunities, etc) then they really are not worth pursuing.

 

get Merc/Mando to a point where it is able to put out damage at the same level as Snipers even, and then we can talk about adding in cool new utility abilities.

 

 

you clearly do not understand the core issues with Merc/Mando, which is why i have no idea why you continue to come into these threads and offer your ideas. do you see me going into Mara threads and suggesting changes? no, cuz i have no idea how to play the class at a high level

Edited January 7, 2013 by cashogy

[Xerain]

1. i never played WoW so have no idea what freeze traps, frost traps and ice blocking is.

2. i would like a AOE snare

3. i would like a drop-and-forget AOE damage skill (similar to Snipers Plasma Probe)

 

but what do those things do to solve the core problems with Merc? nothing.

 

cool shiny new abilities are great, but if they do not address the key issues of the class (no mobility, no interrupt/CC immunities, etc) then they really are not worth pursuing.

 

get Merc/Mando to a point where it is able to put out damage at the same level as Snipers even, and then we can talk about adding in cool new utility abilities.

 

 

you clearly do not understand the core issues with Merc/Mando, which is why i have no idea why you continue to come into these threads and offer your ideas. do you see me going into Mara threads and suggesting changes? no, cuz i have no idea how to play the class at a high level

 

Freeze trap = mez.

Frost trap = aoe snare.

 

A snare will mean being able to keep damage off of you from melee and you'll be able to hit them still. Hunter in WoW was a very cast heavy class too with most of it's damage coming from Steady Shot which was a SURPRISE 1.5 second cast time.

 

And Like I keep saying. You have to know when to use your casted abilities and when to run and use instant casts against melee to keep damage off of you.

 

Giving you more tools to survive will mean more damage. Dead Men Do No Damage.

 

 

 

 

 

I keep explaining all of that to you over and over and over and you're too thick headed to get it... Why? Ranged isn't about just standing there and casting while there's a melee in your face. Like you don't get this because? If you can kite between the cooldowns and then use the cool downs to in turn use your casted abilities, you're golden. How it works.

 

 

Oh and how many Nerf Marauder Threads have I seen from you? Or just cries about marauder in general. I'm adding something constructive from a play style that I've played extensively in many other MMO's. Just because my main here is a marauder doesn't mean I don't know anything about playing a ranged class.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Xerain

[cashogy]

Freeze trap = mez.

Frost trap = aoe snare.

 

A snare will mean being able to keep damage off of you from melee and you'll be able to hit them still. Hunter in WoW was a very cast heavy class too with most of it's damage coming from Steady Shot which was a SURPRISE 1.5 second cast time.

 

And Like I keep saying. You have to know when to use your casted abilities and when to run and use instant casts against melee to keep damage off of you.

 

Giving you more tools to survive will mean more damage. Dead Men Do No Damage.

 

I keep explaining all of that to you over and over and over and you're too thick headed to get it... Why? Ranged isn't about just standing there and casting while there's a melee in your face. Like you don't get this because? If you can kite between the cooldowns and then use the cool downs to in turn use your casted abilities, you're golden. How it works.

 

yes thank you for explaining the basis of playing a ranged class against melee. i had no idea

 

i surrender tho, i clearly have a l2p issue

[tekhiun]

or we could just give snipers the ability to heal themselves

[Xerain]

yes thank you for explaining the basis of playing a ranged class against melee. i had no idea

 

i surrender tho, i clearly have a l2p issue

 

So you're saying an AOE snare and an 8 second mez that you can stand on and forget about for up to 30 seconds wouldn't help the class at all? And it wouldn't help out with more utility?

 

 

Yes it is a big L2P issue.

[cashogy]

So you're saying an AOE snare and an 8 second mez that you can stand on and forget about for up to 30 seconds wouldn't help the class at all? And it wouldn't help out with more utility?

 

 

Yes it is a big L2P issue.

 

an AOE snare and/or mez would certainly add to the utility of the class.

 

but can a snare stop gap closers or interrupts? a mez is not an offensive tool in any form.

 

the core issues, as have been stated many times by many people, are the massive vulnerabilities to interrupts and complete inability to return fire when under attack by even a single melee opponent. all the utility in the world does not address that problem

[Xerain]

an AOE snare and/or mez would certainly add to the utility of the class.

 

but can a snare stop gap closers or interrupts? a mez is not an offensive tool in any form.

 

the core issues, as have been stated many times by many people, are the massive vulnerabilities to interrupts and complete inability to return fire when under attack by even a single melee opponent. all the utility in the world does not address that problem

 

You have to trade cool down for cool down sir. You can snare someone, start running away, cleanse, and start to kite using your instants. If that's not working out for you you can drop the freeze trap like I said they'll get stuck in it, cleanse, and run away again.

 

You gotta learn to be more reactive.

[cashogy]

You have to trade cool down for cool down sir. You can snare someone, start running away, cleanse, and start to kite using your instants. If that's not working out for you you can drop the freeze trap like I said they'll get stuck in it, cleanse, and run away again.

 

You gotta learn to be more reactive.

 

cleanse what? Merc can only cleanse Tech/Physical debuffs? that means almost nothing from force based classes.

 

and i am already quite proficient at running for my life when melee players come after me. not the root of the problem.

[mandoforlife]

You have to trade cool down for cool down sir. You can snare someone, start running away, cleanse, and start to kite using your instants. If that's not working out for you you can drop the freeze trap like I said they'll get stuck in it, cleanse, and run away again.

 

You gotta learn to be more reactive.

 

I notice you say "run away".... That's kind of all us mercs can do at the moment

 

But on to more serious matters. When you say, "kite using our instants", that's actually very few abilities to choose from. If your pyro, you should already have Incendiary Missle burning on the target, so that one's out. We can throw TD and Explosive Dart onto the target, but that's delayed damage, and won't really compete with a melee's burst. Of course there's rapid shots, which does a fair amount of damage for pyrotechs, plus we can proc a snare! We can proc a 2 second, 30% snare. Which we can refresh with Railshot! But wait... Both abilities I have to use to proc Railshot are casted... well if I'm trying to kite, that's not a very good idea.

 

But wait! What if I'm Arsenal? Congratulations, you get even fewer kiting options. I can knock them back, but you know... they'll just leap right on back to continue dishing out a can of whoop a**. I can root him with Rocket Punch! But darn, he just snared me! That makes that useless.

 

Okay, maybe I wasn't quite so serious with that... I'm just trying to point out how ridiculously easy we are to kill. I'll make 'em work for it, but they'll get me in the end. The problem is lack of utility and survivability. I don't mind casting my abilities, I honestly don't. But when a melee gets up in my face, I should be able to do more than flinch, kb and run. We are a ranged class with no on demand snares, and no useful root (rocket punch root really isn't that great). Sure we have a knockback, but the warrior will just leap right back, and the sin can speed his way on back to me.

 

I've read all of Cash's threads on the improvements that can be made to mercs. And honestly, they're all great. Cash, I take my hat off to you sir. You've obviously given this a lot of thought, and I had even thought of some of your ideas before even seeing your posts!

 

An AOE snare or mezz is nice, but it doesn't fix the problems mercs/mandos face. Sure it adds to group utility, but not much else. If that were to be our new ability from RotHC, I wouldn't be too happy.

[Xerain]

cleanse what? Merc can only cleanse Tech/Physical debuffs? that means almost nothing from force based classes.

 

and i am already quite proficient at running for my life when melee players come after me. not the root of the problem.

 

You can't cleanse what... Inquisitor slows... Boo Hoo?

 

 

 

And Missile blast, rapid shots, explosive dart, rail shot, are all untalented instant abilities. Don't say you can't kite or you can't put out damage to kite with because with pyro you can use all those things and have a snare to keep distance. Biggest problem? You run out of steal too fast and end up with 0 way to escape after all your crappy cool downs are blown.

[mandoforlife]

You can't cleanse what... Inquisitor slows... Boo Hoo?

 

 

 

And Missile blast, rapid shots, explosive dart, rail shot, are all untalented instant abilities. Don't say you can't kite or you can't put out damage to kite with because with pyro you can use all those things and have a snare to keep distance. Biggest problem? You run out of steal too fast and end up with 0 way to escape after all your crappy cool downs are blown.

 

As pyro, we don't have any promise of a snare. We have a chance for it, but it's not like it's on demand or anything. Plus, its only a 30% slow, for 2 seconds I believe. Nothing impressive, but I'll take what I can get. Also, missle blast? Sure, you can use that if you want to wreck your heat control.

 

And its not just inquisitor slows. There are several other slows we cant cleanse, such as the juggernaut's slow. I'd suggest you try learning a bit more about the advanced class before you start claiming things.

[PerinnAybara]

"We can proc a 2 second, 30% snare. Which we can refresh with Railshot! But wait... Both abilities I have to use to proc Railshot are casted... well if I'm trying to kite, that's not a very good idea."

 

Clarification, it's actually 2 seconds each time the dot hits. (hits 3 times over 6 seconds. ) so it's actually 6 second 30% snare. When cleansing it, wait for the slow to run out so you can get more dots cleansed off. Else you only cleanse it. (a note as a merc healer)

 

For Arsenal, you rocket punch, heatseeker/missile blast/explosive dart while running away, then cast a tracer missile. This combo works best against those pesky melee'rs. You get out of range and they're rooted for max duration.

 

Anyway, rapid shots definitely doesn't proc 70%, because they have ranged defences, and your offhand accuracy is terrible.

 

Xerain, why aren't you posting in my thread T_T.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=581989

 

I need your Marauder feedback.

 

Also... we can't cleanse Juggernaut slows, nor can we cleanse some marauder slows? Can't tell anymore now that people don't play annihilation.

Edited January 7, 2013 by PerinnAybara