Round 4: Traya vs Plagueis

[Makoto_Shishio]

I agree with the point that Traya may be able to just sever his connection or drain him dry, could he resist these abilities? that's the big question.

The more powerful the force user, the harder it is to actually sever ones connection to the force.

 

Do note that Plagueis was shown to have a greater control of the force than traya alas manipulating the force on a microscopic scale to kill one through his midicholorians.

[fellblade]

Are you sure? I'm aware of the film's dialogue "He could save others from death, but not himself", but I assumed that meant that he wasn't able to save himself because he was sleeping when Palpatine killed him, not because he couldn't apply his powers to himself. It doesn't make much sense being able to be able to manipulate midiclhorians in any other person's body but not your own, and I can't find any quotes/information regarding an inability to apply his technique to himself.

 

I think Traya would be a powerful adversary but ultimately Plagueis would win. His knowledge of midichlorian manipulation I believe would allow him to resist any draining effects of Traya, and I also think it's unfair to say that his near death experience when he was almost assassinated implies weakness, considering that Bane was captured alive by a bunch of soldiers with stun guns and an Iktotchi with poisoned daggers (we all know how powerful and ****** Bane is). Surprise would be Traya's best weapon against Plagueis, but I don't think it'd be enough to kill him in a straight up fight.

 

From What I could see - Plagueis could use his power on himself - In fact based on his notes it seems that his Ultimate goal was his own immortality (as in not aging - and living forever) - Sidious does point out however that Plagueis was not immune to injury and could be killed (obviously) .....(it does look like Plagueis did explore the essence transfer to clone bodies that Sidious uses - (and probably where Sidious got the technique from) - but Plagueis knew of the Side Effect of the Rapid Deterioration of the Clone bodies - So he seemed to be going in the direction of making his original body Last Forever which was the superior way.....Which was possibly one of Plagueis Midichlorian abilities that the knowledge was lost and Sidious was not quite able to Achieve...)

 

But Yes - From What I can glean from his studies - His Knowledge of Midichlorians was unequalled and he seemed to be able to analyse Force powers down to the Very Basics of what effects were taking place in the Midichlorians to produce these abilities.... And While I have Critisized him for his somewhat Narrow focus and dismissing certain Knowledge out of hand - Anything he actually DOES Study, he will know to the Highest Degree - Inside Out......

In the case of Force Sever - Plagueis said that it was a lot Easier to do than his power (of making the Midichlorians Create Life)

So I would not only Speculate that Plagueis probably had ways of Resisting things like Sever Force and Life Drain - but his studies were so Extensive that he probably Studied analysed these types of powers themselves (as a Step in creating thier 'Anti - Effect' so to Speak...)

I would Suspect that Plagueis may Have Actually had Very powerful Life Drain and Sever Force Powers of his own.....

Edited October 4, 2012 by fellblade

[Beniboybling]

Are you sure? I'm aware of the film's dialogue "He could save others from death, but not himself", but I assumed that meant that he wasn't able to save himself because he was sleeping when Palpatine killed him, not because he couldn't apply his powers to himself. It doesn't make much sense being able to be able to manipulate midiclhorians in any other person's body but not your own, and I can't find any quotes/information regarding an inability to apply his technique to himself.

I've read the novel, and Sidious intoxicates him with wine and I get the impression he was in more of a stupor than asleep. Then he blasts him with torrents of lightning. I assume this would wake him up, but surprise and intoxication may have prevented him from using his ability.

 

You are given the idea though that he could not save himself from dying, it constantly relates to him inablity to achieve immortality and, I think, manipulate his own midi chlorians. And also when he is almost killed by the assassins, he uses heart stun, not midi chlorian manipulation to save himself. Based on the evidence we have I think we can assume he could not apply the ability to himself.

 

The more powerful the force user, the harder it is to actually sever ones connection to the force

 

I expect you are right, but Kreia didn't actually use sever force to kill the masters, but force drain. She actually them drained of the force rather than cutting them off from it. And I don't think this power discriminates, the effects rely soley on the practioner. For example Darth Nihilius, a complete master of the power, used it to devour an entire planet, where many powerful jedi where convening. And Lord Vitiate, consumed the whole of Nathema and several powerful dark lords. Whether Traya could use it to kill of wound Plagueis relies solely on her mastery of it.

 

EDIT:

From What I could see - Plagueis could use his power on himself - In fact based on his notes it seems that his Ultimate goal was his own immortality (as in not aging - and living forever)

Really, where did you get that from? (I'm not saying your wrong, just interested)

Edited October 4, 2012 by Beniboybling

[fellblade]

EDIT:

Really, where did you get that from? (I'm not saying your wrong, just interested)

 

The Vast Majority (and what I've used in this Debate) that I know about Plagueis has come from The Book of the Sith (The Sith mirror to 'The Jedi Path' book)

(It is written in a way that it is supposed to be Plagueis' actual notes, written in his own hand - and essentially His Exact point of View.....)

It Is a Good book to read if you Haven't read it. It also has notes from (amongst others) Sidious, Malgus, Bane, and Mother Talzin

 

As I said before - I haven't read the actual Darth Plagueis Novel so there are definitely gaps in my knowledge from that perspective

[Warren-Stride]

Well, if we're going to give Plagueis's biggest power the benefit of the doubt, it's only fair that we do the same for Traya.

 

Midiclorian Manipulation < Force Drain

 

Auto-win for Traya(?)

Edited October 5, 2012 by Warren-Stride

[Preventer-Blaze]

Darth Plagueis would win, even if the battle could be so close for both of them.

[DarthBandeth]

Well, if we're going to give Plagueis's biggest power the benefit of the doubt, it's only fair that we do the same for Traya.

 

Midiclorian Manipulation < Force Drain

 

Auto-win for Traya(?)

 

The Force Drain power is dark in nature, and Plagueis is one of the most deeply immersed Sith Lords in the darkside of all time. I find it hard to believe that he would have absolutely no resistance to Force Drain.

[BrandonSM]

The Force Drain power is dark in nature, and Plagueis is one of the most deeply immersed Sith Lords in the darkside of all time. I find it hard to believe that he would have absolutely no resistance to Force Drain.

 

Isn't Midichlorian Manipulation an advancement of Force Drain? Depicting on draining or enhancing the force with manipulation?

[SiXXXX]

I really laugh at all those kiddlers who go "Palpatine was the most power fullest sith ever" you gotta be kidding me. You think Boba Fett's "death" was weak, look at his. Lucas can spread whatever ******** he wants. But to say Palpatine was better then all of Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kreesh, Revan, TOR Emporer, etc is a joke. Sith from the movies, clone wars tv, etc could not be more powerful considering how much information was lost. Sith take knowledge for themselves and usually destroy it.

 

Which means Palpatine would never have had access to 90% of sith lore he would have needed to truly become the most powerful

 

PS: anybody who even tries to bring up the cloned emperor, or switching bodies emperor, or any of that ridiculous post ROTJ nonsense needs to die in a hole. That stuff should never have been allowed to be released. The only stuff that has moderately been reasonable and acceptable are the series of Jedi Outcast + Academy games

 

Anyways... as to who wins. Its pretty tough. Both were well known for being a teacher, rather then the true master. I'd say it could go either way in a fair fight. But considering Plagueis got played a fool by Palpatine, and Traya IS the master of betrayal. I'd say somehow she fools Plagueis and kills him

 

Traya wins by playing dirty. Fair fight is a draw

[Aurbere]

I really laugh at all those kiddlers who go "Palpatine was the most power fullest sith ever" you gotta be kidding me. You think Boba Fett's "death" was weak, look at his. Lucas can spread whatever ******** he wants. But to say Palpatine was better then all of Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kreesh, Revan, TOR Emporer, etc is a joke. Sith from the movies, clone wars tv, etc could not be more powerful considering how much information was lost. Sith take knowledge for themselves and usually destroy it.

 

Which means Palpatine would never have had access to 90% of sith lore he would have needed to truly become the most powerful

 

PS: anybody who even tries to bring up the cloned emperor, or switching bodies emperor, or any of that ridiculous post ROTJ nonsense needs to die in a hole. That stuff should never have been allowed to be released. The only stuff that has moderately been reasonable and acceptable are the series of Jedi Outcast + Academy games

 

 

And yet Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith to ever exist. Everything he has done is canon. And Lucas himself cleared Sidious' return so that destroys your argument.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Aurbere

[SiXXXX]

See. Everyone brings up Canon. Canon can burn in hell.

 

Who cares about Lucas's opinion. It should be obvious to everyone that his characters from his movies are going to be "the best". Why wouldn't they be? Its his story. If I was the dictator of a franchise I'd probably be similarly biased towards my own characters. Nevermind the fact that he butchered parts of the original trilogy, or that the prequels all made zero sense (I still like them but the flaws are apparent), or that Lucas wrote Indiana Jones and the crystal skull. All those aside, my point is this. Just because Lucas is the creator of star wars, does not mean he knows whats best for it. The best movie was the only one he didn't direct. Coincidence? Nope. The way sidious is portrayed in the movies should be enough evidence that he wasn't all that powerful. He was simply a master manipulator. If he was so powerful, why did he rarely fight directly. If he was the most powerful, why didn't he use Battle Meditation to make sure the Rebellion got crumbled in every big battle. Because he was NOT the master of the force. He was just a smart man who came into power at an opportune time. I respect the emperor and his character but there is no freaking way he is actually the most powerful sith in history.

 

Lucas can say whatever he wants. Believe him if you want.

[Aurbere]

See. Everyone brings up Canon. Canon can burn in hell.

 

Who cares about Lucas's opinion. It should be obvious to everyone that his characters from his movies are going to be "the best". Why wouldn't they be? Its his story. If I was the dictator of a franchise I'd probably be similarly biased towards my own characters. Nevermind the fact that he butchered parts of the original trilogy, or that the prequels all made zero sense (I still like them but the flaws are apparent), or that Lucas wrote Indiana Jones and the crystal skull. All those aside, my point is this. Just because Lucas is the creator of star wars, does not mean he knows whats best for it. The best movie was the only one he didn't direct. Coincidence? Nope. The way sidious is portrayed in the movies should be enough evidence that he wasn't all that powerful. He was simply a master manipulator. If he was so powerful, why did he rarely fight directly. If he was the most powerful, why didn't he use Battle Meditation to make sure the Rebellion got crumbled in every big battle. Because he was NOT the master of the force. He was just a smart man who came into power at an opportune time. I respect the emperor and his character but there is no freaking way he is actually the most powerful sith in history.

 

Lucas can say whatever he wants. Believe him if you want.

 

Lucas created Star Wars, as fans we must repect and follow what he puts out as canon in the lore. A true Star Wars fan respects the IP's creator as well as what he wishes for the IP as a whole. Ask any big wig at LA and they'll say that Darth Sidious and Luke Skywalker are the best of the best. Why? Because every other work backs it up. Dark Empire is canon as well as everything before and after the movies. Well, everything that isn't rated N-canon. And Dark Empire is not N-canon. Lucas personally suggested Sidious' return which puts Dark Empire in the realm of G-canon, imo.

 

EDIT: The truth about Sidious' death http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=539574

Edited October 6, 2012 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

I really laugh at all those kiddlers who go "Palpatine was the most power fullest sith ever" you gotta be kidding me. You think Boba Fett's "death" was weak, look at his. Lucas can spread whatever ******** he wants. But to say Palpatine was better then all of Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kreesh, Revan, TOR Emporer, etc is a joke. Sith from the movies, clone wars tv, etc could not be more powerful considering how much information was lost. Sith take knowledge for themselves and usually destroy it.

 

Which means Palpatine would never have had access to 90% of sith lore he would have needed to truly become the most powerful

/QUOTE]

 

The fact is, whether you like it or not, Sidious is canonically the most powerful. Even if you disagree you just have to accept it, seeing as it is Lucas's creation. Anyway, Revenge of the Sith does prove he is pretty powerful, killed 3 of the most powerful jedi in 3 seconds, then killed the second most powerful, then defeated the most powerful jedi in existecence at that time, yoda.

[Warren-Stride]

I acknowledge Canon as much as the next guy, but I do find it a little bit annoying that the "most powerful Sith lord EVER" was defeated in less than 1 minute in his duel with Windu. That's kinda embarrasing if he's the most powerful Sith lord to ever live.....

 

Maybe Windu is the most powerful Force-user to ever live then? (Joking)

 

I do realize I just fed the debate, but we should probably get back on topic.

 

Traya vs. Plaguies

[Aurbere]

I acknowledge Canon as much as the next guy, but I do find it a little bit annoying that the "most powerful Sith lord EVER" was defeated in less than 1 minute in his duel with Windu. That's kinda embarrasing if he's the most powerful Sith lord to ever live.....

 

Maybe Windu is the most powerful Force-user to ever live then? (Joking)

 

I do realize I just fed the debate, but we should probably get back on topic.

 

Traya vs. Plaguies

 

George Lucas said that Mace Windu beat Sidious in the Lightsaber duel. But if Sidious would have used his Force powers he would have beaten Mace. I recommend you either check out Dark Empire or visit Darth Sidious' Star Wars wiki page. Or check out the link I posted above.

 

Anyway. I think Plagueis would win. But it hinges on if he can resist Force Drain. We know that he has a knowledge of Force Drain since it is similar to Midichlorian Manipulation, so it stands to reason that he should be able to resist it.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Aurbere

[BrandonSM]

See. Everyone brings up Canon. Canon can burn in hell.

 

Who cares about Lucas's opinion. It should be obvious to everyone that his characters from his movies are going to be "the best". Why wouldn't they be? Its his story. If I was the dictator of a franchise I'd probably be similarly biased towards my own characters. Nevermind the fact that he butchered parts of the original trilogy, or that the prequels all made zero sense (I still like them but the flaws are apparent), or that Lucas wrote Indiana Jones and the crystal skull. All those aside, my point is this. Just because Lucas is the creator of star wars, does not mean he knows whats best for it. The best movie was the only one he didn't direct. Coincidence? Nope. The way sidious is portrayed in the movies should be enough evidence that he wasn't all that powerful. He was simply a master manipulator. If he was so powerful, why did he rarely fight directly. If he was the most powerful, why didn't he use Battle Meditation to make sure the Rebellion got crumbled in every big battle. Because he was NOT the master of the force. He was just a smart man who came into power at an opportune time. I respect the emperor and his character but there is no freaking way he is actually the most powerful sith in history.

 

Lucas can say whatever he wants. Believe him if you want.

 

You seriously need to go read up on his powers.

 

Second, authors have to follow GL's canon or else their fired(KT is an example).