Tanking help!

[lycanthro]

I am a lvl 50 Sith Juggernaut who has spent lots of time in PVP. I have just started doing group hard mode flashpoints and operations, and have been kicked twice from groups because I was not "Tanking" or in a "Tank Stance, even though I had killed most of the bosses and we were well over half way through the flashpoints.

 

Can someone give me pointers on tanking so my group stays happy? I thought a tank 's job was to wade in and smash the enemy head-on.

 

One comment to me when I was kicked the second time was that I was supposed to take all the damage for the group. I am tough, but don't see how I will avoid being killed every time using this tactic.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

[UberDuberSoldat]

If you're a jug and you're calling yourself a "tank", then not being in soresu is a direct contradiction. Esp in PvP as you cannot gaurd in anything but soresu.

 

In ops you need to corral enemies and taunt them all to you. First priority is getting attention, let the healers keep you alive.

 

What gear do you have? What's your HP? What's your def/sh/abs?

Edited September 24, 2012 by UberDuberSoldat

[Raedaerle]

While I'm not experienced as a high end jugg, as a tank I can tell you your priorities are

1) Have good enough gear and cooldown management to survive spikes while leaving steady healing to the healers

2) Have good enough aggro to keep all the mobs on YOU not your healer, or your high end dps

3) Manage positioning and pacing for the group. Someone else might mark targets and dictate strats but you're still the one who moves first once you're sure all are ready and can best drag mobs around corners or near bombs

4) Oh, and do some damage if you can while never losing 1 2 or 3

 

From the sound of it you know the class just not so well the role. Take a look at the role forums. There's lots of discussion there on tanking.

 

Cheers, Raphaelle

[jvoz]

what type of gear specs should a tank look for? strength and endurance? im learning lol

[rob_y]

what type of gear specs should a tank look for? strength and endurance? im learning lol

 

Depends on the tank's class (strength is useless if you aren't a Guardian/Jug). Endurance is always nice for a tank. Defense, Shield, Absorb are also nice. Priority depends on a few things, but it's hard to go too wrong gear-wise if you're stacking those four stats (End, Def, Shield, Absorb) and are using a shield generator.

[Elyx]

what type of gear specs should a tank look for? strength and endurance? im learning lol

 

Endurance should be last on the list of important stats. not last on the list period ...but on the stats you specifically want to gear for, endurance is last but not least.

 

no matter what you pick as gear or mods....they will have endurance on them. so you will get it, no need to go out of your way. different MMO's have different priorities, but here you will want to prioritize mitigation stats over endurance. those stats are:

 

Defense

Shield

Absorption

 

Notice I didn't put Endurance on there. not ignored, but its simply already there. once your stats in those areas are up to par (current accepted standards for those iirc are 30/50/50 at high level gear), then you start to add endurance. power is a possible option to increase damage and thus threat, but it tends to share a stat slot with at least one of the three above, so it's always preferrable to pick those over power if your under the thresholds.

 

For the OP, here's a brief description of your role as a tank in PvE. Your job is to hold aggro on as many mobs as possible so the DPS and healers dont get pummeled. in PvP, damage is moderated by PvP stats. but in PvE the mobs, especially boss mobs, can hit hard enough that most DPS or healers will go down in one or two hits easily. with higher mitigations like I mentioned above, and timely use of your CD's, you can surprise yourself at how long you can stay alive against hits that would crush a light armor wearing healer. but that's because it's your job. you really are a meatshield for the rest the group. your tank stance gives you extra threat solely for this reason.

 

Now, on your own, without the aid of a healer, you can eventually go down, simply because damage, no matter how much is mitigated, is still damage. without healing, you will eventually get worn down. But inall honesty, most boss fights, a healer cannot even keep a DPS ALIVE when a boss is turning them into swiss cheese paste. whereas I have as a tank killed a boss with no one but a healer left alive. you and healer = Bonny and Clyde. When Im tanking, my top priority is keeping my healing partner alive...even to my own death. because if they die....I will. as will everyone else. but with a good healer you really are a juggernaut.

 

If you didn't know (and I'm just being complete here....please disregard if you already know), Threat is a hidden PvE mechanic that determines who the mob wants to pound on the most. for Damage classes, one point of damage = one point of threat. for healers, one point of healing is 1/2 a point of threat. for you, in your TANKING stance, one point of damage is 2 points of threat. in your other stances, it's equal to DPS classes. So you can see why they expect you to hold threat and take the hits. you can take more hits then they can, and you have far more ability to keep the mobs attention (a.k.a piss them off).

 

now...there are a TON of dynamics in a group that you can't equate to a graph or a mechanic. DPS who attack the mob you aren't attacking....AoE caster who break Crowd Control...etc. but in a neutral setting, your job involves getting hit so they don't. and if your not doing that regularly (or as regular as other tanks to), then yes, they will probably get frustrated and kick you.

 

So make sure you are maximizing your mitigation skills like i mentioned above. columi levels of gear, having 25/35/35 isn't a bad place to be. that's 25% defense, 35% shield, and 35% absorb. 30/40/40 is doable with some rakata and BH pieces, and 30/50/50 is what your shooting for with campaign level gear. so if your not there at those gear levels (this includes class skill btw...so you need to be in soresu form to compare), then you need to sharpen up your gear.

 

By the way....not sure you knew this, but a properly traited immortal jugg increases his defenses allot by being in soresu (tank) form...so if you were in something else you were also taking more damage then you should have been, which is harder on healers. so gear needs to be good. then you need to be in soresu. and then you need to hold aggro on as many mobs as possible. you won't get them all...especially with juggs, we are not the AoE threat kings, so you will have to prioirtize the mobs you hold threat on. it should look like this:

 

Boss > ranged champs > mele champs > ranged elite > melee elite > silvers if needed (DPS can actually hold those, but if ones pounding on your healer....read my above statement about bonnie and clyde). ranged before melee, simply because melee can be managed eaiser through the "threat juggle", whereas range often will immediately focus on the healer, as they aren't taking any damage (hence no threat), but they are getting the healers threat from heals (it's a healing mechanic...very irritating, but its' there. heals build threat on all mobs in the fight....damage only builds threat on those that are damaged). i could go into detail on good strategies for a Jugg dealing with mob situations, but i think I'm already putting most of the readers to sleep

Edited October 14, 2012 by Elyx

[SleepyJoeFriday]

I can tell you from a healing aspect that a "tank" that doesn't use Soresu form (or a shield) or a DPS that doesn't allow the tank to build agro is a real pain.

 

The reason being that the healer ends up generating too much agro due to the high rate of healing and then runs out of power to keep the healing going.

 

As a healer I've often had to prioritize and stop healing party members if they're taking too much damage and I'm spending too much time healing them at the expense of the rest of the party. Its simple triage. I'll keep those party members that are most likely to survive alive over the one that is dieing the quickest. The more people that live, the greater the chances that I'll survive as a healer. It's also far easier if I only have to focus on keeping one member alive rather than skipping over all party members. Remember, my biggest heals take the longest to cast.

 

The guard stance, which can only be applied when in Soresu stance is also of great benefit to the healer as we will always be attacked by mob stragglers i.e. those that haven't been attacked by the tank or the dps, and the average sorceror or sage has far less HP and more importantly with only light armour substantially less damage mitigation, so we die quickly.

 

From a tanking perspective keep in soresu form, try and move your camera so that you can see if your healer is under attack. They will keep you alive, if they can. Give your healer time to regenerate between fights, nothing worse than the tank leaping off to the next fight, well out of range with your power at only 25%. As a healer I can't leap 30 metres to the next mob and once you start to fight I can no longer use my regeneration mechanic. It's only 15 seconds, so whats the harm?

[esirrom]

THere is some great information in this thread and i thank all who have posted. I havent touched my tank since my tanking was criticized durring a HMFP. I felt that maybe i was doing something wrong though we never "wiped". My question is: when starting the fight i know that i go first hack and slash and taunt (as needed) but in the middle of the fight when i dont have my taunt or aoe taunt (against multiple enemies) is it better to run around attacking those enemys that i cant taunt to round them up? My logic was that my teammates can kill adds or silvers pretty quick as long as i kept the attention of the strongest 1 or 2.

[SleepyJoeFriday]

Simple measures, not always possible to notice once in the fray:

• Stay in Soresu form.
  
• Place guard on healer (but don't worry about staying within 15m of healer, let them keep the distance, however, don't bounce around like a jackrabbit you'll soon outdistance their healing range).
  
• Leave the lower spec adds to the rest of the group (try and stick with all golds that aren't cc'd).
  
• Don't habitually use your taunt in each rotation - its not always needed.
  
• If your healer is dying and you see an add going for them but have no taunt left, run away from them and use force leap to close the distance - its usually available once the fight is going and generates threat on landing).
  
• Rotate your target lock regularly once mobbed - dealing damage saves a taunt for when it's needed.
  
• Your roar/shout ability can be used a closer range taunt if you see a mob element leaving you.
  
• Your job is not to kill the mob but to keep it occupied.
  
• Wait for everyone, especially healer, to regenerate their power bar and have CC cooldowns complete before starting a fight.
  

 

Oh use the alternate target mode to keep tabs on your healer (force target I think it's called).

[Elyx]

Joe summed up most the critical elements. ill add some Juggernaut specific details. but to answer your last question, yes, you got it right...the DPS can deal with the stragglers. but it's a balance game. When I'm DPSing on my jugg (i.e. not tanking), ill actually keep a few mobs busy. were tough, even in DPS form, and we can do that. I don't do this on my jedi shadow when he's DPS...his health simply drops way too fast. so let them handle a few...if you notice that they are ending the fight low on health far too often, reign it in a bit.

 

So the moral to the story is....watch your team. one of the most critical skills to become an effective tank is situational awareness. it's learning to know, at a quick (relatively) glance what the mob setup is like, and how to best approach dealing with as many mobs as possible. and being able to scan the environment WHILE tanking to see whats going on. there should be very few "reactive" choices when your situational awareness is high enough. you know your not doing it well when the fight seems like it's "out of your control" or you are spending far too much time re-actively spamming your skills instead of setting up scenarios to use them the most effectively.

 

the bad news is this: you probably picked the worst class for dealing with multiple mobs. don't get me wrong, I love my jugg (no other class is as fun). but Im also honest...it take 3x more effort to get that AoE aggro out of her then it does my shadow when he's tanking. my shadow hits 2...I repeat 2...AoE abilities and he has aggro like glue. my Jugg has to throw his saber at one, leap to another , choke a third, backhand the first one, and then smash them all...sunder the second one again, and then use crushing blow (and hopefully you'll have 5 stacks by then and it will actually do something).

 

I will also often throw a mob into the larger group, leap at him again....you get the point. we bounce around like jumping beans. a good juggernaut is never static...but you shouldn't need to run around just hitting things (notice that everything I did above did not involve running over to mobs.) we have the most mobility tools out of all the tanks. so much so that I miss my jugg when im tanking on my shadow. here's a few more tips:

 

1) like i stated above, spread out your attacks. don't chain up all your stuff on one mob when theirs 5 in a group. try what i mentioned above, spread your stuff out on 3 or so.

 

2) if you have a straggler, leap to him, push him into the group, leap to him again, and use your area taunt, THEN smash after a few seconds. you got 6 seconds before taunt wears off....wait till they're all close and whammy.

 

3) don't use your choke or backhand on your main target. they are much more effective as threat agents and as ways of controlling mobs you lose aggro on. if a mob runs off to the healer, backhand it. that's 4 seconds where you can figure out what the heck to do with it before it wakes up again. backhand builds a ton of threat as well.

 

4) On that note...if a healer pulls aggro, DON'T FREAK. don't immediately spam your taunt. that silly mob has to run over to the healer. it's a long ways...let it run....then taunt it....and it has to run back. that's allot of lead time to save up a backhand for it, or a force choke...or just let it run back to the healer again. and taunt it again. That's what I call the taunt juggle, and I've literally kept mobs running back and forth between me and a DPS or healer until they're dead. It's pretty funny to watch actually.

 

5) There's a reason Interceded is a lvl 50 skill. because it's amazing. in PvE, it's instant threat drop on whoever you leap to, and you absorb damage to them. IMO this should be an integral part of your leap skill in a fight. If your leap is up...look around to see who you can intercede too (healer is always a good default) intercede, then leap back. it's fun as hell, and can save a healers life. or DPS. whoever.

 

Also, some more general stuff.

 

know the fights. even if you have to tell the group 'one sec' so the silly DPS will wait, that's OK. look at the fight and plan your attack. you'd be amazed at how amazing you look when you choreograph a fight and control the whole thing. feels great too

 

Communicate. talk ahead of time about what mark is what. set up your marks on hotkeys (mine are alt+1-8). that way you can slap them up fast. unless the DPS are complete morons, they can process simple ideas like, "target first, then blue shield, then red flame plz. ignore purple gear, ill control him"

Edited October 23, 2012 by Elyx

[Cyonnelia]

As a long time Juggy tank, one thing i will say about guard is it pretty much wasted on a healer, the greatest thing about guard is it reduces the amount threat the guarded target generates if so you will find it so much easier for you to hold agro against hard hitting dps if you guard them instead, read this quote in a tanking fourm over at http://sithwarrior.com "if you aren't guarding the Mara or Sent in your group you are doing it wrong"

 

Guarding healers is a PVP tatic, not a PVE one, because in PVP the primary target is going to be the healers, PVE as mentioned in an above post, your threat is modifed by 4 to 1 against a healer, and 2 to 1 on a dps, so increasing the threat lead on a dps is better imo.

 

Intercede is such a situational skill, that it gets throw to the wayside very quickly because of one important fact almost all Ops bosses and most HM FP boss have a frontal cleave, therefore interceding in the group to reduce one party members threat and damage taken, which sounds good in theory can go wrong very quickly when the cleave goes off, and kills the op or fp group, the only thing i use intercede for regularly is get to the Spy above the mission terminals in Black Hole quest area, for the quest where you have find the 3 spies in the base. Guess Guardians don't really have a use for it at all.

 

To sum up , guard your hardest hitting dps, and only use intercede when you are facing a boss that doesn't have a frontal cleave which is almost never,

Edited October 30, 2012 by Cyonnelia