Let us keep our Stockstrike knockback

[Shintyx]

Ever since the changes I have started to be more aware of just how useful the Stockstrike knockback really is. I have also come to the conclusion that replacing it with a root is, in many ways, making it a lot less useful, even considering that it will add no resolve.

 

The main reasons for this are that the knockback buys us time to immediately keep shooting whatever we knocked back, whereas a root will require us to turn, run away (most likely already snared) and start shooting again. Essentially, we will achieve very little during the 2 or 4 seconds that our target is rooted in contrast to when we were able to knock it back. This at least gave us the chance to get a Grav Round off.

 

We also will lose the ability to use it as an interrupt for Force Lightning or Ravages, which it was highly useful for. Furthermore, we won't be able to tempt Marauders/Juggernauts to use their jump and then knock them back again, nor will we be able to avoid the now buffed Rage specced Smashes from them.

 

Additionally to that, the knockback was very useful in group pvp arenas. Knocking something away from your healer, on all the ramps in Huttball, hills in Novare Coast, away from the cap points in Civil War and the new warzone's explosion.

 

While the resolve argument might be true, in group pvp play it will not make that great of a difference. Chances are multiple players will be attacking your target anyway and resolve will be added one way or anothers. Why they only thought of duels when changing the talent is beyond me.

 

 

TL;DR:

A melee range short root will have much less useful applications than a melee range short knockback.

 

Fixes that I could think of might be to add the root additionally to the knockback on Stockstrike, to turn the Full Auto snare (70% in 1.4) into a full root or to give us a seperate ranged root. Either way, let us keep the knockback. Seriously.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Shintyx

[Jherad]

I agree, however we NEED to get people on the Test Server to test this.

 

Right now, I'm fairly confident that there is absolutely NO testing of the PvP changes happening. I've been on there twice a day since the PTS went up, and there are very few people there and no warzones popping. I wrote a post on the PTS forum asking if anyone had been able to get a WZ to pop, or done any PvP testing, and it was deleted rather quickly.

 

We may only have a week or so to test, and if necessary post feedback. Not that I think anyone is listening, but its worth a try.

[HileyQuiggley]

I think the root is ok. But give Commandos something in our skill tree to lower its cooldown a little.

[Shintyx]

I think the root is ok. But give Commandos something in our skill tree to lower its cooldown a little.

 

It will still be a melee ranged root with all its disadvantages. Lowering the cooldown might technically make it better, but it will also lead to use spending more ammo on that than actual dps, screwing up our ammo managment/lowering damage.

 

Stockstrike is still a hard hitting attack, lowering the CD may cause a DPS imbalance specifically for pve.

 

Stockstrike for a Gunnery Commando hits for less than a Grav Round. Are you thinking of Vanguards? Also, Commandos in PvE are not in melee range and will rarely, if ever, use Stockstrike during boss fights. It would be a significant dps loss to do so.

[Boufsa]

Let us keep our Stockstrike knockback

 

/signed This additionnal bump was very useful, the replacing root will be almost useless.

[Sarapham]

I agree with the OP regarding stockstrike. It would have been different if the root had been longer ranged, but in melee range the knockback will give more advantages overall.

[Altheran]

Stockstrike for a Gunnery Commando hits for less than a Grav Round. Are you thinking of Vanguards?

 

Less than Grav round, but instant. The casting time of Grav Round reduce his overall DPS heavily. Let's say a Grav Round need twice the time an instant needs... if Grav Round doesn't deal twice as much damage than Stockstrike, then not using Stockstrike in damaging purpose is a mistake because using it would increase the DPS. Commando's Stockstikes hit as hard as Vanguard's ones.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Altheran

[Isolde]

Grav Round = 1.5 Sec channel

Stock Strike = Instant + 1.5 Sec GCD

 

Both take the same length of time, so may as well go with the one with more damage (i.e Grav Round).

 

Still doesn't solve the problem that a short-duration melee root doesn't help a turret ranged class defend itself.

[SpaniardInfinity]

The only way I think a root will be helpful is that the attacker in melee range cannot leap to you while rooted. They are stuck there for the duration. If they leap to you while you retreat, I'd imagine the strategy at that point is to knockback (dealing a 4 sec slow and hopefully more than 10m range) and start building up those procs. They can no longer leap (already burned it) and must now close the gap. The 70% snare on Full Auto will hopefully be enough to keep them at bay. That 10m stun should be exclusively be used for retreating to a bit and then setting up for another attack.

 

Beyond that, this class does need a revisit from developers. It is too easy to shutdown since the entirety of its effectiveness is built on Grav Round. There are alternatives, but I'd wager a guess that Gunnery is among the only ACs that are defeated so easily by only an interrupt.

Edited September 13, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[Jherad]

I still haven't been able to test anything on PTS due to a lack of warzone pops, but I'm pretty sure they won't *need* to leap to you, because you're not getting significantly out of melee range in 2-4 seconds with a snare on you. If you do make a couple of feet in distance, you'll lose it when you stop to cast.

 

If you do get a grav round or two off, and get the proc, by that time they'll be back in melee range and the snare on full auto will be meaningless. The snare will only help as group utility whilst shooting people who aren't focusing you.

[SafeJungleFever]

It will still be a melee ranged root with all its disadvantages. Lowering the cooldown might technically make it better, but it will also lead to use spending more ammo on that than actual dps, screwing up our ammo managment/lowering damage.

 

 

 

Stockstrike for a Gunnery Commando hits for less than a Grav Round. Are you thinking of Vanguards? Also, Commandos in PvE are not in melee range and will rarely, if ever, use Stockstrike during boss fights. It would be a significant dps loss to do so.

 

Are you sure?

 

Just looked at a couple of parses and my stockstrike is about 200 higher than my GR. Admittedly my crits were at 55% on stockstrike which seems a little high (unless the 2 piece crit bonus is applying to that too for some reason).

 

I've been back and forth on whether I prefer the root or the KB. There is absolutely no doubt that the KB is more useful for PVP, and as (it feels like) one of the last gunnery commandos still doing PVP I feel like I need every KB I can get. On the other hand, during trash clearing in ops I use my stockstrike TONS but there are times when I hold back as I don't want to throw off the melees in my group.

[Henu]

Guys and gals, lend your support on saving the knock back..

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=533818

Edited September 19, 2012 by Henu

[Couver]

As far as pvp goes, I'd much more prefer the root. It adds another way to make someone burn their cc break.

 

It sounds like people's biggest gripe is just needing to learn how to maneuver. Instead of flipping a 180 to run away then another 180 to face the target and begin attacking again, either side strafe (you can shoot sideways while running full speed) or immedietely run through the target then side strafe.

[ArchangelLBC]

As far as pvp goes, I'd much more prefer the root. It adds another way to make someone burn their cc break.

 

It sounds like people's biggest gripe is just needing to learn how to maneuver. Instead of flipping a 180 to run away then another 180 to face the target and begin attacking again, either side strafe (you can shoot sideways while running full speed) or immedietely run through the target then side strafe.

 

 

Who in their right minds would blow a CC break on a 4 second root unless they were literally inches from the endzone in Huttball?

 

The second part of your quote makes no sense to me.

[Couver]

Who in their right minds would blow a CC break on a 4 second root unless they were literally inches from the endzone in Huttball?

Melee classes. 4 seconds is of just standing there while your target is getting away is a long time.

 

The second part of your quote makes no sense to me.

 

In response to...

 

The main reasons for this are that the knockback buys us time to immediately keep shooting whatever we knocked back, whereas a root will require us to turn, run away (most likely already snared) and start shooting again.

 

I don't expect you to read the whole thread (I know 2 pages is alot of words for kids nowadays) but, atleast read the OP.

[Chaoskyx]

Melee classes. 4 seconds is of just standing there while your target is getting away is a long time.

 

Whoever uses their cc breaker like this is downright terrible.

 

I don't expect you to read the whole thread (I know 2 pages is alot of words for kids nowadays) but, atleast read the OP.

 

I believe they meant that commandos need to be stationary to do any real damage.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Chaoskyx

[Luceon]

I agree with Chaoskyx and ArchangelLBC, any melee who uses cc break on a 4 sec root is less than experienced or they simply are not knowledgeable of the commando/merc skills. Either way, it's not likely to happen often. First off, they can easily close the gap between you and them every time. Next we have the part where they have a couple of ranged skills to switch to that can still lock us down. After that there is the after 2 seconds any damage removes the root, so oh hey I moved 5 feet away lets attack now the root is gone or if you do run the whole way the distance is again easily recovered. Lastly I wanted to point out that the concern for gunnery commando isn't about movement, more so the lack of utility to be stationary. We understand that we are supposed to be turrets (and I use the word supposed loosely) however we do not have the proper utility to enforce it.