Recruit vs. Rakata for starting PvP

[L-RANDLE]

Make the holes gradually bigger.

. Hard to do that...

Here:

Water=HP

 

1. Turn on the faucet at a given rate ("Healing/HP in") but slower than the "exhaust" rate of the half gallon (to actually get the test to "end"). Keep it the same for both tests.

2. Time it takes to empty a half gallon(12KHP REC) with a 3/4" hole.

3. Time it takes to empty a gallon(18K HP RAK) with a 1" hole.

 

 

 

If the gallon takes the less time to empty, I'll conceed that it will help if you are actually being healed. Video to follow...

 

[EDIT]Want to add a "focus" scenario? Make the holes bigger(say three times the size) or add additional holes (but the same amount of holes in each gal/.5gal), the outcome will still be the same..

Edited August 23, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Jherad]

.1. Turn on the faucet at a given rate ("Healing/HP in") but slower than the "exhaust" rate of the half gallon (to actually get the test to "end"). Keep it the same for both tests.

2. Time it takes to empty a half gallon(12KHP REC) with a 3/4" hole.

3. Time it takes to empty a gallon(18K HP RAK) with a 1" hole.

 

 

 

If the gallon takes the less time to empty, I'll conceed that it will help if you are actually being healed. Video to follow...

.

 

What? That's silly. The only thing you're interested in is how much water you need to replenish in each in order to keep them from emptying over the same amount of time. That is, how much does each need to be healed. You're obfuscating the point with the notion that either 'bucket' should be emptying. The point is for them to remain as full as possible.

 

Let both buckets leak for 30 seconds, and let them both be fully replenished throughout. How much 'water' (healing) was required to keep them full? Again, PvP healers don't have the luxury of keeping their target at an 'efficient' level, it's all or nothing.

 

The answer is simple. Less mitigation means more healing required. End of story. Really.

 

Really really.

[L-RANDLE]

What? That's silly. The only thing you're interested in is how much water you need to replenish in each in order to keep them from emptying over the same amount of time. That is, how much does each need to be healed. You're obfuscating the point with the notion that either 'bucket' should be emptying. The point is for them to remain as full as possible.

 

Let both buckets leak for 30 seconds, and let them both be fully replenished throughout. How much 'water' (healing) was required to keep them full? Again, PvP healers don't have the luxury of keeping their target at an 'efficient' level, it's all or nothing.

 

The answer is simple. Less mitigation means more healing required. End of story. Really.

 

Really really.

 

But they do infact empty in PVP. Even with that, it will take you the same amount of time to give 12K worth of healing in each scenario. Maybe they need more "doctor's visits" at that point, but the game's current TTK and design says either of the two people in combat are dead before the second visit could happen.

 

"Filling" up is should not be the goal of a healer. Overall goal for healing in PvP is to stay alive and keep other people alive regardless of what there MAX HP is. Is is not? It's similar to my guard argument. You rather have a teammate deal less damage/heals, for mitgation sakes.

[Yeochins]

Well it's only 15%, but who's counting. Anywho.... It's somewhat of a good point, but I think that "guard" in itself makes 15% moot to the point of being somewhat irrelevant.

 

I could also counter with: A Rakata player should make you want to Guard them MORE because of lack of mitigation. Keeping people alive is the point of guard, and keeping a teammates alive is much more important to achieving objectives. You also should want to keep them up longer because all things being equal, a Rakata geared potential DPS/HPS output is higher than a recruits. IDK, Just some food for PVP tankie-tank thought...

 

Wrong! Wrong! And more Wrong!

 

The goal of a tank is to do whatever is necessary to obtain or keep an objective. It so happens that the majority of the time to hold or obtain an objective it is convenient to keep a healer alive by throwing guard and a taunt.

 

In other cases it is advantageous at an off-point to keep a strong DPS'er guarded while they freely burn down other enemies. In cases where your DPS'er is in Rakata he is:

 

• Having his damage mitigated by at least 16%
  
• Taking an additional 16% damage
  

 

In such situations where your facing Battlemaster/War Hero geared players he is going to get hit hard. In such cases it is more advantageous to let them die than attempt to guard them. If he gets burned down he may be able to stall them for 3-4 GCD's if he's lucky. Meanwhile you still have a full HP pool that will let you survive long enough for someone more competent to come and help you maintain or capture the objective.

[vsalcedo]

Wrong! Wrong! And more Wrong!

 

The goal of a tank is to do whatever is necessary to obtain or keep an objective. It so happens that the majority of the time to hold or obtain an objective it is convenient to keep a healer alive by throwing guard and a taunt.

 

In other cases it is advantageous at an off-point to keep a strong DPS'er guarded while they freely burn down other enemies. In cases where your DPS'er is in Rakata he is:

 

• Having his damage mitigated by at least 16%
  
• Taking an additional 16% damage
  

 

In such situations where your facing Battlemaster/War Hero geared players he is going to get hit hard. In such cases it is more advantageous to let them die than attempt to guard them. If he gets burned down he may be able to stall them for 3-4 GCD's if he's lucky. Meanwhile you still have a full HP pool that will let you survive long enough for someone more competent to come and help you maintain or capture the objective.

Even with recruit gear thats all you can do to even survive the three to four GCD,s from BM and WH. The problem with PvP gear in this game is that it gives you too much damage over palyers rather then playing it WoW style which lets you compete on all fields. Hence the fact that PvP gear gives you more defense against players rather the give you extra power against players who have only PVE gear. In a WoW setting you have a chance.

[Darth_Philar]

Wrong! Wrong! And more Wrong!

 

The goal of a tank is to do whatever is necessary to obtain or keep an objective. It so happens that the majority of the time to hold or obtain an objective it is convenient to keep a healer alive by throwing guard and a taunt.

 

In other cases it is advantageous at an off-point to keep a strong DPS'er guarded while they freely burn down other enemies. In cases where your DPS'er is in Rakata he is:

 

• Having his damage mitigated by at least 16%
  
• Taking an additional 16% damage
  

 

In such situations where your facing Battlemaster/War Hero geared players he is going to get hit hard. In such cases it is more advantageous to let them die than attempt to guard them. If he gets burned down he may be able to stall them for 3-4 GCD's if he's lucky. Meanwhile you still have a full HP pool that will let you survive long enough for someone more competent to come and help you maintain or capture the objective.

 

He may get hit hard, but so would a recruit. And it makes no difference to your health pool whether he is in PvE, Recruit, BM, or WH. The damage you take through guard is calculated completely independent of the damage he takes.

[Trollolololo]

generally 1 tier offset.

 

ie, for pvp,

recruit >~ columi

battlemaster >~ rakata

war hero >~ campaign

 

for pve

columi >~ recruit

rakata >~ bm

campaign >~ WH

 

Except when it comes to relics. Then War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages> Matrix Cube, Campain Relic, et. al for DPS and Healing

[islander]

I think if you are a healer, you can go rakata over recruit. You lose the healing bonus but the gear itself more then compensates.

 

As far as anyone taking/doing damage though, I'm not sure how you reconcile losing 35-40% total damage with stats. If a rakata geared DPS fights me, he's going to take 20+% more damage incoming, and hit me with what, 14-15% or whatever less damage incoming (with me at 1300 expertise). I know the recuirt gear hit points is garbage, but still. I dunno, I guess if you had (bare minimum) 40% more health then you would in recruit...you try it.

 

I'm sure some people can pull it off. I just wish I knew the ones who could. It gets old seeing most of my pug dpsers doing like 100k damage total or less.

Edited August 24, 2012 by islander

[arkitip]

It was asked earlier what main stat for a fully optimized Campaign/BH player was. On my sentinel, my fully optimized set will have me at 2150 strength stimmed and buffed. 1065 power, 30% crit, 77% surge, 101% accuracy. I hit like a truck towing another truck carrying a shipment of steroids.

Now I've never tested it because I'm in fully augmented and optimized BM with WH implants, ear, and relics (1212 exp, 1777 main stat stimmed and buffed) but I'm going to bet my performance would be very similar in either set of gear. I would also bet that it would be very similar performance to non-optimized WH gear because, let's face it, standard itemization sucks for most classes.

[Darth_Philar]

It was asked earlier what main stat for a fully optimized Campaign/BH player was. On my sentinel, my fully optimized set will have me at 2150 strength stimmed and buffed. 1065 power, 30% crit, 77% surge, 101% accuracy. I hit like a truck towing another truck carrying a shipment of steroids.

Now I've never tested it because I'm in fully augmented and optimized BM with WH implants, ear, and relics (1212 exp, 1777 main stat stimmed and buffed) but I'm going to bet my performance would be very similar in either set of gear. I would also bet that it would be very similar performance to non-optimized WH gear because, let's face it, standard itemization sucks for most classes.

 

This is very true. PvP gear out of the box appears to have been itemized by a random number generator.

[L-RANDLE]

Wrong! Wrong! And more Wrong!

 

The goal of a tank is to do whatever is necessary to obtain or keep an objective. It so happens that the majority of the time to hold or obtain an objective it is convenient to keep a healer alive by throwing guard and a taunt.

 

In other cases it is advantageous at an off-point to keep a strong DPS'er guarded while they freely burn down other enemies. In cases where your DPS'er is in Rakata he is:

 

• Having his damage mitigated by at least 16%
  
• Taking an additional 16% damage
  

 

In such situations where your facing Battlemaster/War Hero geared players he is going to get hit hard. In such cases it is more advantageous to let them die than attempt to guard them. If he gets burned down he may be able to stall them for 3-4 GCD's if he's lucky. Meanwhile you still have a full HP pool that will let you survive long enough for someone more competent to come and help you maintain or capture the objective.

 

It's everyone's job to complete objectives, prevent caps, etc. It is somewhat irrelevant to this disco. Your job is to keep healers up, taunt, debuff, mitigate through tank talent/gear. A attack of 3000 is only a 225HP(1275 or 1500) swing for a tank. 225HP is minor in PvP considering the amount of damage out there. As far as I understand the mechanics, the HP swing is even lower if you have any talent/skills running at time of hit. Say Warding Call, 40% decrease, 765 or 900, 135HP swing.

 

You also indirectly validated my point in your own statement..

In other cases it is advantageous at an off-point to keep a strong DPS'er guarded while they freely burn down other enemies.

The Rakata player is the stronger DPSer, and by the same token, he/she is also the stronger healer in a REC v RAK choice, which also should dictate your priority on who you guard.

 

When you look at it from a team perspective, it's pretty much a wash, but a logical person would say the increase in output will probably do more good than a slight change in mitigation. Again, you want a player to decrease their healing and/or damage output, so you take less damage through guard? All in a game where high damage output determines whether or not you achieve objectives? LOL, ok...