Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

[Maaruin]

Hold on there just one second.

 

Here is the problem.

 

The Tibana gas ability to get MORE energy out than what is put in is by FACTORS so...

 

Imagine...

 

A Star Trek ship is flying around... When they scoff at the "out dated" plasma... When that plasma hits their ships with a force 1,000 times more powerful than plasma should be.

 

That is where the Star Wars weapons have an edge, the physics defying capabilities of Tibana multiply the force output that plasma can have... Which jacks the power of a plasma bolt up by TEN FOLD what is even capable by physics.

 

As long as Star Wars has Tibana gas they win. Because getting hit by 1 blaster bolt, to trek, is like getting hit by 1,000 plasma bolts simultaneously all at the same location.

 

According to the numbers a lone X-Wing could fire a bolt at the NCC 1701-E, a single bolt mind you, that would plow through the shields, through the hull, through the ship, out of the other side of the hull, and punch through the back of the shields.

 

Star Trek is out gunned. Even the smallest Wars ship could pulverize the most powerful Federation vessel.

 

So, when a rebel soldier on the Tantive IV is hit by a blaster bolt, why doesn't it go right through him, through the men behind him, through the hull of the ship and through the hull of the Star Destroyer?

 

When Anakin shoots at the shield generator besides the hangar of Grievous' ship, why doesn't the bolt go right through the ship and leaves it at the other side?

 

Star Trek has the same problem: In theory, a photon torpedo should have the energy of a middle sized atom bomb. You see that's obviously not the case, so the numbers must be wrong.

 

 

Of course, if the specc's of both, Star Wars and Star Trek, were made by scientists who analyzed what the weapons can do in the movies and concluded the numbers, then I would believe them. Was that the case?

 

 

Let's imagine for a moment that this is not an argument about which side's tech is more uber. In fact, take all the fancy schmancy phasers and blasters that defy physics out of the equation. Let's simply look at the respective size of each government entity.

 

In one corner we have the Empire:

The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.

 

In the other corner we have the Federation:

The Federation is described as an interstellar federal polity with, as of the year 2373, more than 150 member planets and thousands of colonies.

 

The Empire would very likely crush the Federation just in manufacturing might alone. Heck, they could build a steel moon and ram it into a planet for giggles and Federation weaponry would probably not dent it before it impacts the planet. The Empire can build ships the size of cities that Federation ships would get lost in. They chew up entire worlds for raw materials. They would throw a billion troopers in mass planetary invasions without batting an eye. They are more merciless than the Borg. How does one compete against that kind of power?

 

Now that's the real deal. That's why the Federation would be nothing more than a local power in the Star Wars galaxy and the Empire would squish it like a bug in all out war. The Federation might win a few battles in the early phase of the war, but the Empire has so much more resources, it would win the war without problems.

 

But they are not more merciless than the Borg. Borg are not capable of showing mercy, if they ignore someone, it is for other reasons. On the other hand, Borg are also not capable of seeking revenge. The Empire is.

 

I think the Borg are the only power that could compete with major Star Wars powers. Maybe also the dominion, but I don't know how big their Empire is.

 

I like how most of these comments have entirely ignored my own statement:

 

Neither has the tech advantage here, they deal damage enough to pose significant threats to each other.

 

That's always the case. Star Wars tech speccs and Star Trek "lasers are no threat" are always brought up in this kind of discussion. But at least some also wrote something to your scenarios.

[Nydus]

Species Rules: No force-users, military power only. No calling out-of-faction help.

 

Well, you've just taken out the one thing that would perhaps give the SW folks an edge (and not much of one).

 

Unfortunately, any major species of the ST canon could wipe out the Empire and Republic combined.

 

This is because the technology of the Federation and Star Trek major species is leaps and bounds over Star Wars. Given the decisive role technology plays in war, you simply can't remove "technology" levels in this scenario. A laser is not a phaser, warp drive is not hyperdrive.

 

Besides the obvious -- transporters (landing on a planet is considered quaint) -- it is simply a matter of the energy levels referred to in both canons.

 

A "laser" (turbo or otherwise) couldn't even penetrate the hull of star ship. At one point an enemy ship attacks the Enterprise with a laser and there is a debate as to whether they need to raise shields (the standard navigation deflectors which protect the ship from debris are considered sufficient).

 

The only point I'll give to SW (besides force users which you've removed from this scenario) is that they have superior ground forces. However, given that a single star ship could obliterate every imperial or alliance installation on a planet with a series of photons (which have yields in the isotonne range), or simply transport them out into space or into the middle of a rock ... i'm not qutie sure how helpful this advantage is.

 

Perhaps you could make a convincing argument that the sheer numbers of the SW faction would overwhelm the ST faction in the scenarios you've mentioned, but given that one little tinsy island conquered pretty much our entire planet at one point because they had better boats I'm not sure we can say that for sure.

 

Do we even have reliable populations of the Empire / Republic / Federation / etc.?

 

I know that the average "Fleet" in ST is smaller (Federation in the Original Series had about a dozen front-line constitution-class star ships and I imagine some leftovers from the previous line), but the references there are to their "star ships", which is essentially the deep space fleet (able to travel for years without refuel/resupply). A completely self-sustaining ship. We never really get an accurate read on the planetary/solar system militias although references are made to Federation Planets having these.

 

I suppose you have the Death Star but the ST universe illustrates even in the original series that the technology exists to destroy a planet. A mining vessel destroys Vulcan in the most recent movie. Not special technology. Rather commonplace actually.

 

Oh geeze. I didn't even mention replicators. There goes the ground forces superiority of the SW factions after the first encounter.

 

These are fun scenarios but pretty unanswerable given the questions that have never been explored in each canon.

 

- Arcada

Edited August 9, 2012 by Nydus

[GarfieldJL]

So, when a rebel soldier on the Tantive IV is hit by a blaster bolt, why doesn't it go right through him, through the men behind him, through the hull of the ship and through the hull of the Star Destroyer?

 

When Anakin shoots at the shield generator besides the hangar of Grievous' ship, why doesn't the bolt go right through the ship and leaves it at the other side?

 

Star Trek has the same problem: In theory, a photon torpedo should have the energy of a middle sized atom bomb. You see that's obviously not the case, so the numbers must be wrong.

 

 

Ah but there is a key fact you are missing, in Star Trek there is something known as Structural Integrity Fields, all starships in Star Trek have Structural Integrity Fields and Inertial Dampeners. Anyways, the structural integrity fields enable ships to shrug off hits that would pulverize the ship if they weren't active. SIF Generators have a pretty large safety margin built in, are always active (barring drydock), and are entirely seperate from the Shields.

 

We've seen shuttles, Galaxy Class starships (operating on only secondary power), and outdated BoPs flying into the corona of stars. We have yet to see a Star Wars ship capable of achieving the same feat.

 

The fact that ships survive hits from photon torpedos is not a sign of the torpedo being less powerful than advertised, it is a testiment to just how tough Star Trek ships are, and they have to be. The kinds of accelerations you routinely see a Star Trek ship pull, puts enormous stress on a ship and would cause the ship to rip itself apart if it didn't have those fields.

[Maaruin]

A "laser" (turbo or otherwise) couldn't even penetrate the hull of star ship. At one point an enemy ship attacks the Enterprise with a laser and there is a debate as to whether they need to raise shields (the standard navigation deflectors which protect the ship from debris are considered sufficient).

 

As explained, Star Wars "lasers" aren't lasers, they are plasma weapons. And plasma weapons can do damage. In Star Trek, they are not as good as phasers, but remember, Star Trek ships normally fire only one phaser at a time, while Star Wars ships fire all their Plasma cannons... sorry, Turbo Lasers at once.That does make them dangerous for Star Trek vessels.

 

The fact that ships survive hits from photon torpedos is not a sign of the torpedo being less powerful than advertised, it is a testiment to just how tough Star Trek ships are, and they have to be. The kinds of accelerations you routinely see a Star Trek ship pull, puts enormous stress on a ship and would cause the ship to rip itself apart if it didn't have those fields.

 

We have seen photon torpedo's fired at planets. I cant find the scene right now, but there is one were the photon torpedo hits destroyes a building, but not a whole city. And I don't know how canon "the final frontier" is, but there is a torpedo that hits a place only a few meters away from Kirk, and he doesn't die.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Maaruin

[Kilikaa]

All this talk about whether the weapons and which can do what is all fine and good. It does take away from the main topic. It also surprise me that I was the only one so far to bring up a weapon that could throw all Star Trek ships into disarray. ION WEAPONS! I do not recall any Federation, Klingon, Romulan ect vessel having this kind of weapon. Considering what two shots from a planetary ion gun did to a ISD do you guys really think the Enterprise could withstand a shot? Could a Borg Cube withstand bombardment from two MC-80 Star Cruisers firing these weapons? Could ground and atmospheric vehicles in the ST universe survive shots from ion cannons?

 

Ion weapons shut down electronic devices. Sheilds, weapons, communications, propulsion systems would be knocked out for a while. All the techno talk and nobody else has brought this up surprises me. Think about it guys. Ion weapons could tip the balance.

[ProfessorWalsh]

A lot of people also want to use the, "Instead of the technical numbers lets use what we see on screen!" argument.

 

That is an argument I don't think the Trekkers want to use.

 

Why? Two words: Seismic Charge

 

In Episode II we saw Jango Fett's Slave I dropping strange charges in an asteroid field, these charges were shattering multiple asteroids per detonation. Showing, for example, one very large asteroid, about twice the size of Slave I, get shattered as well. In Trek an asteroid of that same size took a spread of Photon Torpedoes that had to be calculated by Data in order to achieve the same result.

 

In Episode V we saw a Super Star Destroyer disintegrate a large asteroid in a single shot. How large was this asteroid? On screen this asteroid was roughly 1/10 the size of the Super Star Destroyer, which makes it approximately 1.9 kilometers in diameter.

 

To put this in perspective the USS NCC-1701-D was only 467 meters in length. This makes it not even half the size of the asteroid we are SHOWN being vaporized in a single shot.

 

Again asteroids of similar size are destroyed in Trek, but they require hours of calculations, and entire spreads of torpedoes, and in the case of an asteroid the size of the one we saw the SSD vaporize it took a Q to do it.

 

Now to the person who asked why we don't then see people getting shot through by hand blasters. That is also simple to explain. Blasters have varying amounts of power that are pushed through the tibana gas. Turbolasers, for example, have different power settings so do an X-Wing's blaster cannons.

[Maaruin]

A lot of people also want to use the, "Instead of the technical numbers lets use what we see on screen!" argument.

 

That is an argument I don't think the Trekkers want to use.

 

Well, I want to use this argument. I have no problem with Star Trek loosing. (I already said in an allout war they would certainly loose. they=Federation)

But I want them to loose in a fair way, not because of made up technical numbers which have nothing to do with what we see.

 

I will answer in greater length later, also to the ion cannons.

[GarfieldJL]

As explained, Star Wars "lasers" aren't lasers, they are plasma weapons. And plasma weapons can do damage. In Star Trek, they are not as good as phasers, but remember, Star Trek ships normally fire only one phaser at a time, while Star Wars ships fire all their Plasma cannons... sorry, Turbo Lasers at once.That does make them dangerous for Star Trek vessels.

 

Not really, plasma weapons are largely considered to be outdated in Star Trek, considering what phaser banks are capable of (not to mention precision targetting), the Star Wars ship would not be capable of leveling a continous barrage because those turbolasers would all be quite out of commission, PERMANENTLY.

 

We have seen photon torpedo's fired at planets. I cant find the scene right now, but there is one were the photon torpedo hits destroyes a building, but not a whole city. And I don't know how canon "the final frontier" is, but there is a torpedo that hits a place only a few meters away from Kirk, and he doesn't die.

 

You just fell into my trap.

 

Photon Torpedos can be reconfigured for low-yield explosions, it isn't exactly hard to do...

 

Page 130 of the Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual:

The launcher is downstream from four loader stages, where the M/A fuels are injected into four torpedos at one time.

 

In other words, the torpedos are completely empty until there is a Red Alert, then the warhead/fuel is put into the torpedo. So the torpedo strike we see in Star Trek V was loaded with a reduced amount of fuel/explosive material so they wouldn't kill the away team...

 

@ Professor Welsh

 

When Trek ships are destroying asteroids they are generally trying to avoid creating new navigational hazards... Phasers are also more of a cutting weapon, they slice into a target as we see in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Plasma based weapons cause a lot of materials to enter their gaseous state, which is why people over-estimate the firepower of a Turbolaser, cause it was unshielded matter...

 

Star Trek also had a lot of instances where they wanted to destroy something without widespread collateral damage, where as Imperials seemed to not care how much collateral damage they caused.

Edited August 9, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[jarjarloves]

A lot of people also want to use the, "Instead of the technical numbers lets use what we see on screen!" argument.

 

That is an argument I don't think the Trekkers want to use.

 

Why? Two words: Seismic Charge

 

In Episode II we saw Jango Fett's Slave I dropping strange charges in an asteroid field, these charges were shattering multiple asteroids per detonation. Showing, for example, one very large asteroid, about twice the size of Slave I, get shattered as well. In Trek an asteroid of that same size took a spread of Photon Torpedoes that had to be calculated by Data in order to achieve the same result.

 

In Episode V we saw a Super Star Destroyer disintegrate a large asteroid in a single shot. How large was this asteroid? On screen this asteroid was roughly 1/10 the size of the Super Star Destroyer, which makes it approximately 1.9 kilometers in diameter.

 

To put this in perspective the USS NCC-1701-D was only 467 meters in length. This makes it not even half the size of the asteroid we are SHOWN being vaporized in a single shot.

 

Again asteroids of similar size are destroyed in Trek, but they require hours of calculations, and entire spreads of torpedoes, and in the case of an asteroid the size of the one we saw the SSD vaporize it took a Q to do it.

 

Now to the person who asked why we don't then see people getting shot through by hand blasters. That is also simple to explain. Blasters have varying amounts of power that are pushed through the tibana gas. Turbolasers, for example, have different power settings so do an X-Wing's blaster cannons.

 

The numbers from Star Wars are wrong. Yes i know they are from Dr. Curtis Saxon and he calculated all of them HOWEVER he is WRONG.

 

He used the scene in Empire strikes back where the Star Destroyer was blowing up asteroids left and right with one shot. He calculated how much energy would be required to do that if the asteroids where composed of Iron.

 

His assumptions are wrong to begin with.

 

1st. We see that when an asteroid hits the bridge of the Star Destroyer it blows up the EXACT same way as when its hit by a blaster. That means that it is not the blaster causing the explosion but something in the asteroid itself.

 

If I had a pistol and shot 10 propane tanks and they all explode you wouldn't say that the gun has that power would you? You wouldn't think that if i fired it a person they would explode just like the propane tanks. However that is exactly what Curtis Saxon did. Which of course is wrong.

 

2nd. The Siesmac charge scene. Basicly the same thing as the Star Destroyer scene. We see Jango firing and blowing up asteroids left and right then when he gets direct hits on Obi Wan with his shields down it barely even scratches it.

 

Now you might say "well thats because Dura steel can with stand the megaton explosions from basters"

 

 

Problem with that thinking is that in ROTJ he see a AT ST get smashed by 2 tree logs with out so much as splintering the tree. So we know for a fact that Dura steel isn't that strong and why would it need to? Space ships don't need reenforced hulls to with stand great pressure and they have "energy shields" which can withstand blaster fire.

 

So while Saxon saw the scene and "rounded up" with his numbers he should have brought them all down. But of course saying Star Wars weapons are about as strong as our weapons doesn't grab headlines. Saying that he calculated they have the strength of several nuclear weapons will end up getting you book deals.... which is what happend.

 

 

So in conclusion yeah Star Wars weapons are no where NEAR as powerful as you think they are. Everything in the ICCS books contradicts what we see in the movie so of course it's not canon.

[jarjarloves]

He isn´t right at one thing... SW blasters do not use "electric" plasma like Star trek... they use "heat" plasma. (where they simply fire superheated particle bolt with relatively low kinetic energy)

 

Plasma weapons are effective because of their effect on shields- true plasma is supercharged (but still quasi-neutral) state of matter where electrons travel freely around super-ionized atoms. That means insane electric gradients inside of it. Which cuts with certain types of shields with absurd ease. And it has rather devastating effects on hull matter too.

(One could argue though... that technology capable of producing non-discipative "electric" plasma bolt/beam would be on itself more devasting a weapon than the beam/bolt itself)

 

Mass Effect like kinetic barrier would stop it, but that would fall into a trap of quickly discipating it around the ship and that would rather quickly melt the ship hull as the byproduct- heat- destroys target.

 

Generaly only thing against plasma beam would be Asgard/Ancient shields from stargate- Since they actualy create plasma barriers around the ship.

 

couple things

Plasma is basically a gas that can have an electrical charge. Thats why they say they use plasma instead of lasers the idea being its super heated gas in a magnetic field.

 

So of course this means you could easily defend against them if you have a magnetic shield. (remember the scene in A New Hope where Han shoots the door and the blaster bounced around the room and Luke said it's Magnetically sealed?)

 

So all the Enterprise would have to do was create a magenetic field around itself. I don't know if it can do that in the Star Trek unvierse i've only seen a couple of hte movies and never watched the show.

 

As for the gas melting the ship? Well only if the plasma is in direct contact with the hull. If it is outside the shields then no ti would happen. remember in space the only way you are transferring heat is through radiation. Im pretty sure the star trek ships have radiation shields as well.

 

This is why if you go into space with out a space suit you won't freeze to death you will run out of oxygen hours before you freeze because the body doesn't lose a lot of heat from radiation. Now if the gas is touching the ship then it would be conduciton and it could melt depending on the material. Of course remeber these ships have to be able to withstand reentry so who knows what heat they can survive.

[GarfieldJL]

The numbers from Star Wars are wrong. Yes i know they are from Dr. Curtis Saxon and he calculated all of them HOWEVER he is WRONG.

 

He used the scene in Empire strikes back where the Star Destroyer was blowing up asteroids left and right with one shot. He calculated how much energy would be required to do that if the asteroids where composed of Iron.

 

His assumptions are wrong to begin with.

 

1st. We see that when an asteroid hits the bridge of the Star Destroyer it blows up the EXACT same way as when its hit by a blaster. That means that it is not the blaster causing the explosion but something in the asteroid itself.

 

If I had a pistol and shot 10 propane tanks and they all explode you wouldn't say that the gun has that power would you? You wouldn't think that if i fired it a person they would explode just like the propane tanks. However that is exactly what Curtis Saxon did. Which of course is wrong.

 

2nd. The Siesmac charge scene. Basicly the same thing as the Star Destroyer scene. We see Jango firing and blowing up asteroids left and right then when he gets direct hits on Obi Wan with his shields down it barely even scratches it.

 

Now you might say "well thats because Dura steel can with stand the megaton explosions from basters"

 

 

Problem with that thinking is that in ROTJ he see a AT ST get smashed by 2 tree logs with out so much as splintering the tree. So we know for a fact that Dura steel isn't that strong and why would it need to? Space ships don't need reenforced hulls to with stand great pressure and they have "energy shields" which can withstand blaster fire.

 

So while Saxon saw the scene and "rounded up" with his numbers he should have brought them all down. But of course saying Star Wars weapons are about as strong as our weapons doesn't grab headlines. Saying that he calculated they have the strength of several nuclear weapons will end up getting you book deals.... which is what happend.

 

 

So in conclusion yeah Star Wars weapons are no where NEAR as powerful as you think they are. Everything in the ICCS books contradicts what we see in the movie so of course it's not canon.

 

I'm going to also point out that if the Hoth Asteroid belt really had that many rocks made up of iron, there would be another planet in the Hoth system rather than that asteroid field...

 

Many Asteroids are actually a loose collection of rocks, many of which can have ice underneath the surface, and superheating ice rather suddenly with an outlayer of rock for some pressure can cause an impressive looking explosion. So yeah, Star Wars weapons are not as powerful as many Star Wars fans advertise.

 

couple things

Plasma is basically a gas that can have an electrical charge. Thats why they say they use plasma instead of lasers the idea being its super heated gas in a magnetic field.

 

So of course this means you could easily defend against them if you have a magnetic shield. (remember the scene in A New Hope where Han shoots the door and the blaster bounced around the room and Luke said it's Magnetically sealed?)

 

So all the Enterprise would have to do was create a magenetic field around itself. I don't know if it can do that in the Star Trek unvierse i've only seen a couple of hte movies and never watched the show.

 

As for the gas melting the ship? Well only if the plasma is in direct contact with the hull. If it is outside the shields then no ti would happen. remember in space the only way you are transferring heat is through radiation. Im pretty sure the star trek ships have radiation shields as well.

 

This is why if you go into space with out a space suit you won't freeze to death you will run out of oxygen hours before you freeze because the body doesn't lose a lot of heat from radiation. Now if the gas is touching the ship then it would be conduciton and it could melt depending on the material. Of course remeber these ships have to be able to withstand reentry so who knows what heat they can survive.

 

To answer that question about magnetic fields, all Federation Ships are able to generate a magnetic field, in fact some of the navigation deflectors actually generates a magnetic field, and then there are the buzzard ramscoops which use magnetic fields to collect interstellar hydrogen.

Edited August 9, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[jarjarloves]

I'm going to also point out that if the Hoth Asteroid belt really had that many rocks made up of iron, there would be another planet in the Hoth system rather than that asteroid field...

 

Many Asteroids are actually a loose collection of rocks, many of which can have ice underneath the surface, and superheating ice rather suddenly with an outlayer of rock for some pressure can cause an impressive looking explosion. So yeah, Star Wars weapons are not as powerful as many Star Wars fans advertise.

 

 

 

To answer that question about magnetic fields, all Federation Ships are able to generate a magnetic field, in fact some of the navigation deflectors actually generates a magnetic field, and then there are the buzzard ramscoops which use magnetic fields to collect interstellar hydrogen.

 

exactly and not to mention if say the Milenium Falcon actually got hit with a several megaton blast in space it would cause it to go spinning off into space. Think of hitting a pool ball with cue ball going 100 miles per hour.... assuming it survived the hit.

[jarjarloves]

 

To answer that question about magnetic fields, all Federation Ships are able to generate a magnetic field, in fact some of the navigation deflectors actually generates a magnetic field, and then there are the buzzard ramscoops which use magnetic fields to collect interstellar hydrogen.

well in that case all they have to do is increase the magnetic field and they would be invincible against Star Wars weapons.

[Kilikaa]

Just wanted to point out something about the asteroids that hit Executor in ESB. Did it ever occur to anyone to consider the mass of the SSD combined with it's speed being the cause of shattering the asteroids? Even the iceberg that sank the Titanic took some damage when the ship ran into it lol.

[jarjarloves]

Just wanted to point out something about the asteroids that hit Executor in ESB. Did it ever occur to anyone to consider the mass of the SSD combined with it's speed being the cause of shattering the asteroids? Even the iceberg that sank the Titanic took some damage when the ship ran into it lol.

 

it doesn't shatter though it explodes the exact same special effect used when the star destroyer blasts it. So its cleary not the star destroyer blaster that has the megaton power but more likely some type of mineral in teh asteroid.

 

The asteroids also explode the same way when they hit each other.

[Nydus]

The fact that ships survive hits from photon torpedos is not a sign of the torpedo being less powerful than advertised, it is a testiment to just how tough Star Trek ships are, and they have to be. The kinds of accelerations you routinely see a Star Trek ship pull, puts enormous stress on a ship and would cause the ship to rip itself apart if it didn't have those fields.

 

Completely, 100% +1. A star ship -- even from the original series -- is simply a tougher beast. This toughness comes from the shield technology. It is established in the original series that a star ship won't survive a direct hit from a photon torpedo with shields down. It is later established that without inertial dampeners the crew would be instantaneously killed during a minor course correction.

 

Regarding the photon torpedoes, they don't all pack the same yield, yields measure from 25 isotons (this could destroy a city) to 200 isotons. It is important to note that by TNG these are no longer the "exotic" military weapon they were in the original series (i.e. Federation has developed even more advanced weaponry that gets screentime in the DS9, VOY, and the TNG movies).

 

As explained, Star Wars "lasers" aren't lasers, they are plasma weapons.

 

Is there an example in ST of a ship-to-ship plasma weapon? The only reference I remember to plasma was in TNG when Geordi indicates he "held" some plasma in his hand at a symposium with the help of a shield generator. It all comes down to what the shields can handle I guess.

 

Regarding phasers, depends on the ship and director, time of day, and if there is a full moon regarding how they fire . They operate more like cannons and machine guns in ST:2 and the new movie (where they can fire multiple streams), and powerful periodic blasts throughout the OS and TNG series. Star Wars gets a point here just for being more consistent!

 

All this talk about whether the weapons and which can do what is all fine and good. It does take away from the main topic. It also surprise me that I was the only one so far to bring up a weapon that could throw all Star Trek ships into disarray. ION WEAPONS! I do not recall any Federation, Klingon, Romulan ect vessel having this kind of weapon. Considering what two shots from a planetary ion gun did to a ISD do you guys really think the Enterprise could withstand a shot? Could a Borg Cube withstand bombardment from two MC-80 Star Cruisers firing these weapons? Could ground and atmospheric vehicles in the ST universe survive shots from ion cannons?

 

We don't really know enough about the ion weapons to comment on the effects on a star ship. Comes back to the shields (would they be able to take it).

 

ST has a very different style of ground combat. It is squad based and relies on transporters. I don't even think there is an "Army" in the modern sense in ST. It is established multiple times (at least in the OS and ENT) that marines exist; but these are elite units and operate more like British WW2 Commandos (in / destroy / out).

 

I think the SW universe gets a point of superior / overwhelming ground forces. However, if ST can establish space superiority this is fairly meaningless (transporters could make short, short work of ground forces).

 

EDIT: It has been stated the ST supporters don't want to debate on numbers. We actually, really, really do. ST universe actually makes much more of an attempt to back up what happens on screen with numbers. We know processing times of computers, energy outputs of engines, speeds of ships, yields of weapons. We know why there is gravity on ships. We know the range of transporters. We even know where the bloody public toilet is on the 1701-D.

 

We simply don't get that with SW. The answer to pretty much everything is "magic". It is fantasy set in a futuristic setting (the "force" is perhaps the best illustration of this). That is not a dig at SW, just an essential difference between the two universes.

 

- Ord'os

Edited August 9, 2012 by Nydus

[Maaruin]

Wow, lot's of stuff to answer...

 

Why? Two words: Seismic Charge

 

Seismic Charges are f*cking dangerous. I guess they are banned throughout the galaxy and high end black marked technology. They are more powerful than photon torpedos, especially because they can send a shockwave in space!!!

 

But they don't destroy asteroids completely, it scatters them into several parts. I don't know the exact episode in which this is done in Star Trek, but I think they did want to destroy the asteroid completely, not just split it into some parts. Do you know which episode it was?

 

 

Several people have posted about the Hoth asteroids. If they also explode when they hit each other, or a ship, they are weird asteroids. But doubt nearly every complete desintegration we see in Star Wars end Star Trek. Special effects are limited after all, normally everything should leave debris.

But I will say that the Executers turbo lasers are powerful enough to destroy asteroids that much that they don't pose a threat for the ship anymore. So I could see a single Executer turbolaser shot doing critical damage on the Enterprise if the shields are down.

 

Now to the person who asked why we don't then see people getting shot through by hand blasters. That is also simple to explain. Blasters have varying amounts of power that are pushed through the tibana gas. Turbolasers, for example, have different power settings so do an X-Wing's blaster cannons.

 

But there is a special scene in RotS: When Grievous ship and a Venetor fire at each other, they have no reason to tone their turbolasers down. You see a shot of a cannon on each ship getting destroyed, so the shields in this section must be down, but the turbolaser bolt didn't pierce through the whole ship.

 

 

Not really, plasma weapons are largely considered to be outdated in Star Trek, considering what phaser banks are capable of (not to mention precision targetting), the Star Wars ship would not be capable of leveling a continous barrage because those turbolasers would all be quite out of commission, PERMANENTLY.

 

Yes, plasa weapons are outdated. But that a weapon is outdated doesn't mean it can't do damage. Especially if you have lot's of them.

 

And I doubt Phaser could just cut through the Star Wars ship's shield. So no, turbolasers still in commission.

 

 

You just fell into my trap.

 

Photon Torpedos can be reconfigured for low-yield explosions, it isn't exactly hard to do...

 

Then why are the Borg weapons used to bombard Cochrane's ship in First contact sooooo weak? One Photon torpedo would have been enough to destroy the whole area within 10-20km.

 

 

well in that case all they have to do is increase the magnetic field and they would be invincible against Star Wars weapons.

 

Depends. You can't increase a magnitic field into infinity. And we all know that you can break through a magnetic field with enough force.

 

 

Is there an example in ST of a ship-to-ship plasma weapon? The only reference I remember to plasma was in TNG when Geordi indicates he "held" some plasma in his hand at a symposium with the help of a shield generator. It all comes down to what the shields can handle I guess.

 

Yes, there are several:

 

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Plasma_weapon

 

In short: widely used in the ENT era (around 2150) and came in use again after VOY (around 2400, I think).

 

 

EDIT: It has been stated the ST supporters don't want to debate on numbers. We actually, really, really do. ST universe actually makes much more of an attempt to back up what happens on screen with numbers. We know processing times of computers, energy outputs of engines, speeds of ships, yields of weapons. We know why there is gravity on ships. We know the range of transporters. We even know where the bloody public toilet is on the 1701-D.

 

We simply don't get that with SW. The answer to pretty much everything is "magic". It is fantasy set in a futuristic setting (the "force" is perhaps the best illustration of this). That is not a dig at SW, just an essential difference between the two universes.

 

Well, I won't use the Star Wars numbers because they are simply not realistic. And in my opnion this is the same for some Star Trek numbers, for example the energy of a photon torpedo.

 

But what about the OP's question. It was already stated that in this scenario, both sides have weapons that are dangerous for each other and are, at least, on a somewhat comparable level.

[GarfieldJL]

Completely, 100% +1. A star ship -- even from the original series -- is simply a tougher beast. This toughness comes from the shield technology. It is established in the original series that a star ship won't survive a direct hit from a photon torpedo with shields down. It is later established that without inertial dampeners the crew would be instantaneously killed during a minor course correction.

 

To add to that we see Galaxy Class Starships pull off maneuvers that no Star Wars ship of a similar size could have a prayer of pulling off, while the crew doesn't even experience the effects of acceleration. Star Wars may have Inertial Dampeners, but Star Trek also has intertial dampeners and then they also have the structural integrity fields on top of that.

 

A ship with no structural integrity fields or shielding couldn't survive a direct hit from a photon torpedo. A ship with active structural integrity can potentially survive a photon torpedo hit.

 

Regarding the photon torpedoes, they don't all pack the same yield, yields measure from 25 isotons (this could destroy a city) to 200 isotons. It is important to note that by TNG these are no longer the "exotic" military weapon they were in the original series (i.e. Federation has developed even more advanced weaponry that gets screentime in the DS9, VOY, and the TNG movies).

 

Photon Torpedos actually were from the 22nd century, but there were several advances in torpedo design. The Torpedo seen in TNG was more powerful than the one seen in ToS. For safety reasons, torpedos were not fueled until there was a Red Alert, so they couldn't have one go off and blow up the ship.

 

I think Klingon Vessels had a similar safety feature.

 

Is there an example in ST of a ship-to-ship plasma weapon? The only reference I remember to plasma was in TNG when Geordi indicates he "held" some plasma in his hand at a symposium with the help of a shield generator. It all comes down to what the shields can handle I guess.

 

Yes, there were a few instances. For instance, in the ToS era, the Romulans used plasma torpedos, but they moved away from it by the 24th century. Romulans used artificial quantum singularities to power their Warbirds by the 24th century.

 

In Bridge Commander there is a Plasma Torpedo that you get late in the game, but these torpedos don't utilize plasma because it is more destructive. These torpedos were experimental and utilized phase shifting technology as we saw with the Pegasus but at a level where the torpedo just bypassed a target's shields. The reason they used plasma instead of a standard Matter/Antimatter warhead, was because the phase shifting played havoc with antimatter containment, and you don't want your own torpedo detonating in the torpedo launcher or inside your own shields.

 

Plasma based weapons were by and large obsolete by the 24th century, especially when Metaphasic shielding entered the picture, which enabled a ship to enter the outmost atmosphere of stars without the ship taking damage. In fact USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D, actually used this in the Episode: Descent part 2. Metaphasic shielding is actually software based and required no change to hardware.

 

Regarding phasers, depends on the ship and director, time of day, and if there is a full moon regarding how they fire . They operate more like cannons and machine guns in ST:2 and the new movie (where they can fire multiple streams), and powerful periodic blasts throughout the OS and TNG series. Star Wars gets a point here just for being more consistent!

 

There were some minerals that were rather resistant to phaser fire, but not many and those would be just as resistant to blaster bolts if not more so.

 

I generally use the TNG Technical manual when it comes to the actual capabilities of phasers. A Hand Phaser Type II for instance has 16 settings (not counting overload which turns it into a hand grenade) if I remember correctly (1 - 3 are stun settings), number of shots is dependent somewhat on the setting, but considering you start seeing it being able to drill through metal at setting 5 (which is when you want to drill through something without killing someone on the other side), setting 6 you lose the fine control and we're starting to see it punch through some metals fairly rapidly. Setting 7 is basically a 1 shot kill, setting 8 will vaporize you.

 

Phaser Rifles were Type III's and had equivalent firepower to a Type II, but could use the higher settings for a longer duration.

 

Phaser Type IV's and V's were found on shuttlecraft.

 

Galaxy Class Starships had Type X phaser arrays.

 

As far as what a Type I phaser can do (this can fit in the palm of your hand. Page 134, of Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual.

 

When one considers the total stored energy of even a Type I phaser, if released all at once, is enough to vaporize three cubic meters of tritanium, it is reassuring to know that a full storage cell cannot be discharged accidentally.

 

Note, it's not simply punching through it, it is vaporizing it. In other words, a Type I hand Phaser could probably destroy an AT-ST. A Type II and Type III probably could do the same without discharging all the energy in the power cell to do it. So we a weapon that is smaller than Han Solo's blaster, that can take down Scout Walkers.

 

We don't really know enough about the ion weapons to comment on the effects on a star ship. Comes back to the shields (would they be able to take it).

 

Ion Canons would likely just make sensors less effective, while in Star Trek II, entry into a Nebula caused sensors to be sporadic and shields to be fairly useless, there were not power failures all over the place aside from some of the lights... Considering that Ion Canons can actually disable SW ships, I would say that fighting in a Nebula would be even worse for Star Wars ships.

 

Additionally, by the time of TNG, shields did operate effectively in highly ionized nebulas, while sensors had reduced effectiveness.

 

ST has a very different style of ground combat. It is squad based and relies on transporters. I don't even think there is an "Army" in the modern sense in ST. It is established multiple times (at least in the OS and ENT) that marines exist; but these are elite units and operate more like British WW2 Commandos (in / destroy / out).

 

While SW has more ground operations, there is a huge firepower difference as I mentioned above, in fact I would say many Star Wars ground vehicles would be completely worthless against 1 starfleet officer carrying a Type I hand phaser, because his/her weapon could cut right through an AT-ST's armor like a hot knife through Butter. Heck a Type I could even do damage to an AT-AT.

 

I think the SW universe gets a point of superior / overwhelming ground forces. However, if ST can establish space superiority this is fairly meaningless (transporters could make short, short work of ground forces).

 

Agreed.

 

EDIT: It has been stated the ST supporters don't want to debate on numbers. We actually, really, really do. ST universe actually makes much more of an attempt to back up what happens on screen with numbers. We know processing times of computers, energy outputs of engines, speeds of ships, yields of weapons. We know why there is gravity on ships. We know the range of transporters. We even know where the bloody public toilet is on the 1701-D.

 

We simply don't get that with SW. The answer to pretty much everything is "magic". It is fantasy set in a futuristic setting (the "force" is perhaps the best illustration of this). That is not a dig at SW, just an essential difference between the two universes.

 

- Ord'os

 

Another good point, there are numerous technical manuals concerning Star Trek Technology, if one wants to get into a numbers argument the Trekkies have the advantage.

 

Btw, I once got into a debate with a Star Wars fan that claimed the Death Star was bigger than a Dyson Sphere, which is laughable.

 

A Dyson Sphere has a radius of about 1 Astronomical Unit (the average distance between the Earth and the Sun), the Death Star is the size of a small moon. I don't even think the Death Star could do much damage to a Dyson Sphere even if it rammed the thing, let alone fired the superlaser. Everyone on the Death Star would have died of old age long before it caused any noticable damage with the Superlaser if one looks at the grand scheme of things.

 

Yes, plasa weapons are outdated. But that a weapon is outdated doesn't mean it can't do damage. Especially if you have lot's of them.

 

Good luck trying to even hit the ship let alone getting past the shields, pretty much ever scenario the OP brought up would highly favor Star Trek ships, and btw, Imperial Fighters are completely useless, they'd all be destroyed by a sensor scrambling countermeasure...

 

A Galaxy Class is more maneuverable than a Corellian Gunship, putting it mildly. Klingon Vessels are generally more maneuverable than Federation Vessels. You are trying to bring a SSD's weapons to bear on a ship that can fly rings around the SSD, in other words they can maneuver to where most of the Turbolasers couldn't even hit the target without shooting through SSD itself...

 

And I doubt Phaser could just cut through the Star Wars ship's shield. So no, turbolasers still in commission.

 

Actually, considering all the tactics that had to be developed to get past the Borg's shielding, such as rotating phaser frequencies. I don't think a Star Destroyer's shield's would be able to block phaser attacks for very long especially since they have no idea how to rotate shield frequencies.

 

Star Trek Computers by the TNG era were ridiculously fast, and so pinpoint targetting of the weaponsystems of the SSD would be rather easy. Plus, we're assuming that SW shielding would even slow down phaser fire, which utilize sub-atomic particles.

 

Then why are the Borg weapons used to bombard Cochrane's ship in First contact sooooo weak? One Photon torpedo would have been enough to destroy the whole area within 10-20km.

 

A lot of the ship systems on the Borg ship were compromised due to the time travel, Borg Torpedos were not the same as Federation Torpedos, it could be that they couldn't fully load the warhead, without blowing themselves up (containment field issues).

 

 

Depends. You can't increase a magnitic field into infinity. And we all know that you can break through a magnetic field with enough force.

 

True, but all plasma has an electrical charge, due to that fact magnetic fields are pretty effective at blocking plasma based weapons.

 

Anyways based on what a hand phaser is capable of, when scaled up to a Galaxy Class Starship, the idea that Turbolasers can dish out more Firepower than a Type X phaser array is rather laughable.

Edited August 9, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[bionamaster]

As a fan of both IPs, I thought I might add my input:

 

Instead of the usual battles, I want to mix it up with multiple ones.

 

Species Rules: No force-users, military power only. No calling out-of-faction help.

 

The Galactic Empire(RotJ, not post-RotJ) vs The Dominion (DS9)

Reply: One look at Dominion Tech tells me that the Empire would be crushed in a war like that, but perhaps not before a major Dominion planet was blown to dust by the Death Star

 

The Undine(Species 8472 from Voyager) vs The Yuuzhan Vong.

Reply: Undines appear to have the upper hand.

 

The Borg Collective vs the Galactic Alliance.

Reply: Hmm, tough call. The ability to assimilate organics would give the Borg the advantage on the ground for sure. But as for space, hmm. The Borg Cubes are powerful, but I'm not sure that even they could withstand a blast from the Ion Cannon the Rebel Alliance used on Hoth.

 

Klingon Empire vs The Sith Empire(TOR) (Special Rule of no Force Users stretched to allow Average Sith Warriors, etc... no big boys).

Reply: Hmm. The Klingons are pretty strong and skilled, but they would be easy prey for a Sith. Sabers could easily cut through the sharp pointy boomerang things that I forgot the name of, and hurl them aroun the room with the Force. Additionally, Imperial Agents and such have the benefit of Stealth Technology, which would aid them a lot while in melee combat.

 

A note on combat in general:

In an all-out war (Force-users, Lightsabers, a Federation-Romulan-Klingon alliance, etc), Star Trek would win in space, and Star Wars would conquer on the ground. Reasoning:

Space (The Final Frontier )

 

Phasers are generally superior to laserfire. A scene from a TNG episode:

 

Worf: They're arming [confused] lasers, sir.

Picard [increduously]: Lasers?

Riker [slightly amused]: I believe that calls for a yellow alert, sir.

Picard: Very well, yellow alert. (insert yellow alert noises and lights here)

 

This indicates that lasers are a bit outdated, due to the manner in which they spoke and the nature of the episode.

So, this is why I can easily see a Klingon Warbird tearing apart the Death Star, especially since their shields would be equipped to handle phasers at the very least. Sorry, Luke, but your X-Wing isn't the best starfighter after all

 

Land (The Not-So-Final Frontier

 

 

Star Trek characters have little to no protection against damage. They wear standard cloth, last I checked, or maybe leather or metal if they are Klingon. In Star Wars, Military personel and Jedi wear armorweave robes at the very least, and blast-dampening armor at the very most. Additionally, Force powers, rapid-fire energy weapons, and Lightsabers would cause any Trek character to wave a white flag with whatever remaining body parts they have. GG, Spock

 

 

May the Force be with you and prosper.

Edited August 9, 2012 by bionamaster

[Maaruin]

A Dyson Sphere has a radius of about 1 Astronomical Unit (the average distance between the Earth and the Sun), the Death Star is the size of a small moon. I don't even think the Death Star could do much damage to a Dyson Sphere even if it rammed the thing, let alone fired the superlaser. Everyone on the Death Star would have died of old age long before it caused any noticable damage with the Superlaser if one looks at the grand scheme of things.

 

Wouldn't the Death Star's superlaser cut through the Dyson Sphere's hull at the point it hits?

 

 

I forgot to say something about Ion cannons:

 

I think they could disable Star Trek ships, but the Ion cannon the rebels used on Hoth was a very large one and not standard equipment of ships. (If it were, the Imperial Fleet above Endor would have been in perma stun the whole battle.) The ion cannons of ships must be smaller.

 

So the Star Wars fleet commander has to use his ion cannons wisely to tip the balance with them, but Thrawn could do it

[bionamaster]

Wouldn't the Death Star's superlaser cut through the Dyson Sphere's hull at the point it hits?

 

 

I forgot to say something about Ion cannons:

 

I think they could disable Star Trek ships, but the Ion cannon the rebels used on Hoth was a very large one and not standard equipment of ships. (If it were, the Imperial Fleet above Endor would have been in perma stun the whole battle.) The ion cannons of ships must be smaller.

 

So the Star Wars fleet commander has to use his ion cannons wisely to tip the balance with them, but Thrawn could do it

 

Good point with the Ion Cannons, had a laugh at the thought of a stunned Imp Star Destroyer sitting there while the Death Star blew up. Anyway, I was thinking more in terms of defensively used Ion Cannons in strategic locations. It would take some very, and I mean VERY good timing, but perhaps they could disable a Trek ship as it warped on by

Edit: Would also help in big orbital battles, like the one over Coruscant in RotS.

Edited August 9, 2012 by bionamaster

[GarfieldJL]

Wouldn't the Death Star's superlaser cut through the Dyson Sphere's hull at the point it hits?

 

Not very likely, and who knows what the Dyson Sphere could actually do if the Death Star actually did damage, it had the power of an entire star at its' disposal, quite literally.

 

I forgot to say something about Ion cannons:

 

I think they could disable Star Trek ships, but the Ion cannon the rebels used on Hoth was a very large one and not standard equipment of ships. (If it were, the Imperial Fleet above Endor would have been in perma stun the whole battle.) The ion cannons of ships must be smaller.

 

So the Star Wars fleet commander has to use his ion cannons wisely to tip the balance with them, but Thrawn could do it

 

There have been numerous instances were Star Trek ships ha to deal the equivalent of Ion Canons, usually it simply wrecks havoc with the sensors, by the time of TNG, the shields would still stay up. We're talking about ships that have literally entered the atmosphere of stars, without main power, that kinda makes ion canons look like a complete joke.

[Kilikaa]

Wouldn't the Death Star's superlaser cut through the Dyson Sphere's hull at the point it hits?

 

 

I forgot to say something about Ion cannons:

 

I think they could disable Star Trek ships, but the Ion cannon the rebels used on Hoth was a very large one and not standard equipment of ships. (If it were, the Imperial Fleet above Endor would have been in perma stun the whole battle.) The ion cannons of ships must be smaller.

 

So the Star Wars fleet commander has to use his ion cannons wisely to tip the balance with them, but Thrawn could do it

 

The last five words say it all. It doesn't matter who the enemy is or what their tech may be. If Thrawn is present he will destroy all. Because of him, Star wars wins hands down. lol

[GarfieldJL]

The last five words say it all. It doesn't matter who the enemy is or what their tech may be. If Thrawn is present he will destroy all. Because of him, Star wars wins hands down. lol

 

You do realize that Star Trek has its own share of tactical geniuses...

 

Anyways, you guys are operating under quite a few faulty assumptions.

 

 

The Enterprise NCC-1701 could actually follow the ion trails of other ships, even get a rough idea of what ship it was. The idea that even the ToS Enterprise wouldn't notice a planetary ion canon being powered up is simply ridiculous. Then there is the fact the computers on a Galaxy Class Starship were capable of making course corrections to avoid objects while the ship is traveling faster-than-light. Considering the computer can actually impliment Red Alert, since it actually has some intelligence and Red Alert raises the shields, you are not going to get a surprise shot from an Ion Canon against a Galaxy Class Starship.

[jarjarloves]

has anyone here mentioned targeting? It seems Star Wars targeting espeically in ship to ship combat is horrible. Look at any of the space battles sure they look cool but laser blasts are just firing around all over the place.

 

Not to mention we have seen many times people actually manually aiming the weapons. Which of course implys that aiming by sight is better then computer aided aiming. Look at A New HOpe and the death star attack. All the Turrets where being manually aimed and of course they where missing.

 

Even in RotS in the opening scene the ships are right next to each other and still missing.

 

From what I have seen in Star Trek they don't have that problem.