Star Trek vs Star Wars (multiple scenarios)

[liammozz]

The only way to settle this thread is a fight to the death. Trekkies vs. SW fanboys, in a no holds bar cage match.

 

it would be this x1million

 

[Nydus]

What if you are fans of both?

 

Do I have to fight myself to the death?

 

- Arcada

[Aurbere]

What if you are fans of both?

 

Do I have to fight myself to the death?

 

- Arcada

 

No, both sides burn you at the stake unless you pick a one of them.

[Astarica]

Why do Star Trek (or any other fan) don't get that Star War universe's defense against Iwin buttons is comprehensive and thorough? As Vader puts it, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force. The Force pretty much exists to make sure even people in the same universe can't use Iwin buttons let alone any parallel universe invaders that do not have access to the Force.

 

How would the Jedi destroy Q or reach the Q Cotinuum? Easy. Random characters have been given Q's power and the ability to affect them. So you'd see a vision like 'this random guy gained the power of Q and then totally destroyed them', and since Q cannot defeat inevitability, they're now totally gone though you can argue maybe the Jedi misinterpreted what 'totally destroyed them' means so maybe they'll be back soon or whatever. It doesn't matter if this involves being with greater power, higher technology, or whose existence is incomprehensible to the said user. The Jedis and the Voss don't even know about Sel'Makor's existnece. They don't really understand what he is (seems like the embodiment of strife) and they certainly have no idea how to defeat such a thing with their powers but all it took was a Voss Mystic saying 'I saw this vision, a woman walked into this hole and some evil entitty that I should not possibly have any knowledge of (Sel'Makor) is defeated" and that's exactly how it happened.

 

The only two prerequisite needed to stop a Iwin button for Star Wars is that:

 

1. They feel your Iwin button is sufficiently unfair to warrant a vision.

2. A method to defeat the Iwin button exists.

 

The Star Wars universe does not need to even understand why the method works. They do not even have to be able to comprehend the nature of your Iwin button as long as it's sufficeintly unfair.

[liammozz]

Why do Star Trek (or any other fan) don't get that Star War universe's defense against Iwin buttons is comprehensive and thorough? As Vader puts it, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force. The Force pretty much exists to make sure even people in the same universe can't use Iwin buttons let alone any parallel universe invaders that do not have access to the Force.

 

How would the Jedi destroy Q or reach the Q Cotinuum? Easy. Random characters have been given Q's power and the ability to affect them. So you'd see a vision like 'this random guy gained the power of Q and then totally destroyed them', and since Q cannot defeat inevitability, they're now totally gone though you can argue maybe the Jedi misinterpreted what 'totally destroyed them' means so maybe they'll be back soon or whatever. It doesn't matter if this involves being with greater power, higher technology, or whose existence is incomprehensible to the said user. The Jedis and the Voss don't even know about Sel'Makor's existnece. They don't really understand what he is (seems like the embodiment of strife) and they certainly have no idea how to defeat such a thing with their powers but all it took was a Voss Mystic saying 'I saw this vision, a woman walked into this hole and some evil entitty that I should not possibly have any knowledge of (Sel'Makor) is defeated" and that's exactly how it happened.

 

The only two prerequisite needed to stop a Iwin button for Star Wars is that:

 

1. They feel your Iwin button is sufficiently unfair to warrant a vision.

2. A method to defeat the Iwin button exists.

 

The Star Wars universe does not need to even understand why the method works. They do not even have to be able to comprehend the nature of your Iwin button as long as it's sufficeintly unfair.

 

your forgetting one thing a Q could click is fingers and remove the jedi from existence without the jedi even knowing the Q existed if Q just clicked his fingers without ever making his self known to the jedi they would have nothing to preserve,

 

and saying a jedi could get Q's powers is like saying spock could become a jedi that's just stupid, and the only person who could give a jedi a Q's power is a Q which i highly doubt they would do, to be honest i think Q would hate the jedi with all there moral goodness

[Astarica]

your forgetting one thing a Q could click is fingers and remove the jedi from existence without the jedi even knowing the Q existed if Q just clicked his fingers without ever making his self known to the jedi they would have nothing to preserve,

 

and saying a jedi could get Q's powers is like saying spock could become a jedi that's just stupid, and the only person who could give a jedi a Q's power is a Q which i highly doubt they would do, to be honest i think Q would hate the jedi with all there moral goodness

 

Force vision happens faster than the speed of plot. They always happen before a plot device could render the vision meaningless since otherwise there would be no point to a vision.

 

In your scenario, to be consistent with both universes that's going to happen is:

 

1. A Jedi sees Q is about to make them disappear and they must 'destroy Q and the Q Continuum', the Vision would involve some random kid somewhere. This step cannot be preempted by any power available in Star Trek because it's a plot device that always comes before other plot devices.

 

2. Q, with his omnipotence, learns of the Jedi's vision after it has occured.

 

3a. Q decide to do nothing about it. The random kid would probably get invited to the Q Continuum for no reason whatsoever (this is possible, as Q invited Riker to join them) and then destroy Q after he has access to their powers.

 

3b. Q attempts to stop the random kid with obtacles, but since Vision is never wrong, of course the kid succeeds anyway and 3a still happens.

 

3c. Q decides to just make the kid disappear from existence. This causes a chain reaction that led to the destruction of the universe (which Q can not forsee, as they're not all knowing), destroying Q, the Q Continuum, and the universe. The narrator reminds us that nowhere in the Vision did it said anyone else survived this too, and that 'to destroy Q' really is to destroy universe itself but the Jedi had no choice.

[liammozz]

Force vision happens faster than the speed of plot. They always happen before a plot device could render the vision meaningless since otherwise there would be no point to a vision.

 

In your scenario, to be consistent with both universes that's going to happen is:

 

1. A Jedi sees Q is about to make them disappear and they must 'destroy Q and the Q Continuum', the Vision would involve some random kid somewhere. This step cannot be preempted by any power available in Star Trek because it's a plot device that always comes before other plot devices.

 

2. Q, with his omnipotence, learns of the Jedi's vision after it has occured.

 

3a. Q decide to do nothing about it. The random kid would probably get invited to the Q Continuum for no reason whatsoever (this is possible, as Q invited Riker to join them) and then destroy Q after he has access to their powers.

 

3b. Q attempts to stop the random kid with obtacles, but since Vision is never wrong, of course the kid succeeds anyway and 3a still happens.

 

3c. Q decides to just make the kid disappear from existence. This causes a chain reaction that led to the destruction of the universe (which Q can not forsee, as they're not all knowing), destroying Q, the Q Continuum, and the universe. The narrator reminds us that nowhere in the Vision did it said anyone else survived this too, and that 'to destroy Q' really is to destroy universe itself but the Jedi had no choice.

 

plot devices are a tricky thing then because the jedi always have to win so yes the beat the borg and the Q and everything else you throw at them

 

so would what would happen in the federation VS republic conflict, plot devices say they both must win, is this the same as what happens when you divide by zero lol

[PaerisKiran]

3c. Q decides to just make the kid disappear from existence. This causes a chain reaction that led to the destruction of the universe (which Q can not forsee, as they're not all knowing), destroying Q, the Q Continuum, and the universe. The narrator reminds us that nowhere in the Vision did it said anyone else survived this too, and that 'to destroy Q' really is to destroy universe itself but the Jedi had no choice.

 

Q1 "I was even the scarecrow..."

Q2 "Come on, everyone of us has been scarecrow"

Janeway: "Why?"

Q1 "Because, I haven´t done it before. Everyone of us has been everything, seen everything. Captain, you are an explorer, what would you do if there was nothing left to explore? If life becomes empty and meaningless it must be allowed to end."

 

(It is by no means precision script of that Voyager episode but you get the meaning... they are facticaly beyond time and space. (Force isn´t - it really hates black holes, my speculation is that is because blackhole effectively rips part of space and time from rest of the universe and conserves it for "relative infinity"))

[ProfessorWalsh]

plot devices are a tricky thing then because the jedi always have to win so yes the beat the borg and the Q and everything else you throw at them

 

so would what would happen in the federation VS republic conflict, plot devices say they both must win, is this the same as what happens when you divide by zero lol

 

The same thing that happens in every comic book team up that has ever happened...

 

Faction A and B fight, each one having the upper hand for a time, eventually they come to a stalemate and decide to work together to overcome an even greater threat...

 

Unless you are Batman... Then you actually admit that you'd lose the fight and skip right to the part where you team up.

 

(Quote of Batman to Captain America after the pair study each other for a while: "Yeah, you'd beat me Avenger... But if we want our universes to survive we need to work together.")

[Astarica]

Q1 "I was even the scarecrow..."

Q2 "Come on, everyone of us has been scarecrow"

Janeway: "Why?"

Q1 "Because, I haven´t done it before. Everyone of us has been everything, seen everything. Captain, you are an explorer, what would you do if there was nothing left to explore? If life becomes empty and meaningless it must be allowed to end."

 

(It is by no means precision script of that Voyager episode but you get the meaning... they are facticaly beyond time and space. (Force isn´t - it really hates black holes, my speculation is that is because blackhole effectively rips part of space and time from rest of the universe and conserves it for "relative infinity"))

 

Q do not act like he's all knowing unless he's going into bets with human that he knows he will lose (if he's all knowing he must know say Riker wouldn't join Q Continuum, for example).

 

Now you can say an all-knowing being can act like he doesn't know, since not knowing is part of the all-knowing, but then this becomes silly as you can say anybody is really all-knowing and just pretending they don't know.

 

At any rate I think the whole point of Q having interaction with human is that they don't know everything. They say humans might evolve beyond Q. That implies they don't know for sure if this will happen, which is probably why they're keenly interested in humans.

[GarfieldJL]

Walsh you've done so little research into Star Trek that you didn't realize there were more than 2 phaser arrays on a Galaxy class starship...

 

Oh come on. Ion grenades would knock out the Borg implants. We have seen what happens when that occurs.

 

Yes and no, I'm not entirely sure that it would be as effective given the organic components... The key issue would be what type of Borg are being fought, are they the ones that were grown from scratch, or adult victims of assimilation.

 

Actually you are incorrect. The current military assault droids are not controlled by a central location. There is also something preventing them if they were, that is that the Borg aren't there at that moment in time. But no droids in the current time period have been depicted as being controlled by a central location. Even the Separatists phased that out after Naboo.

 

They still can and do communicate with each other via comm relays, they have to in order to coordinate tactics among various units.

 

No it isn't. It isn't a viable weapon. Even if there is a martial art created by Trek fans the logistics and body mechanics involved in using a Batleth are incredibly horrible, the weapon is literally one of the worst designed weapons of all time.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat%27leth

 

It's more dangerous than you are claiming.

 

No there wouldn't be. Because the ships, in this case, are being attacked by automated planetary defenses. They *called for the fleet* but I never stated that the fleet arrived.

 

That makes your scenario even less plausible...

 

Planetary defenses in Star Wars are a combination of blaster tech and solid projectiles, aka missiles, the Borg cannot adapt that we have ever been shown to missiles.

 

False, that has only been true for Borg drones, a photon torpedo can be stopped by a Borg ship's shields, a photon torpedo is basically a missile...

 

That is possible, but unlikely. Each Lightsaber is completely individual. In my scenario I was assuming Jedi switched to non-Energy weapons. IE vibroswords and/or other melee weapons. Jedi are trained in a variety of combat styles.

 

Vibroswords would be more effective, but the Borg have ranged weapons, and it is harder to deflect weapons fire with a Vibrosword...

 

Coruscant has planetary shields, in this scenario the Borg wouldn't have had time either.

 

First you say the fleet isn't there now you're saying it is... Which is it?

 

No. You are giving the Borg way too much credit and the Star Wars universe way too little. It seems all you are even in this thread for is to constantly tout how much better you think Star Trek is than Star Wars in every way.

 

Stop projecting, cause it seems you've done absolutely zero research concerning the Borg, Star Trek Tech, etc. You have only been using snippets to take out of context and ignoring that when those snippets are put in context, it totally destroys your entire narrative.

Edited August 15, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Astarica]

plot devices are a tricky thing then because the jedi always have to win so yes the beat the borg and the Q and everything else you throw at them

 

so would what would happen in the federation VS republic conflict, plot devices say they both must win, is this the same as what happens when you divide by zero lol

 

The Force absolutely is not pro any particular Star Wars faction. The prophecy of Anakin Skywalker turned out to be greviously harmful to the Jedi faction who saw it, because Star Wars doesn't say the Jedi are inherently right and the Sith are wrong.

 

What The Force does is ensure nobody can win with Iwin buttons. Replace the Death Star with just the Imperial Fleet and in either of the battles that featured Death Star and it'd be a decisive victory for the Empire. Even if you bring Luke Skywalker from the future where he's almost a living God, the rebels would still almost certainly lose. Maybe future Luke tears apart a Star Destroyer with just thought alone but eventually someone is going to shoot him down. The Force cannot defeat what is essentially 'hard work'. If you build your massive army of a gazillion droids there usually isn't any magic the Force can pull off to deal with it. Okay maybe they can use a vision to figure out there's a self-destruct code hidden somewhere that blows all the droids up, but this isn't really a Force-only speciality as any 'super hackers' power could get you the same thing. Palpatine gained control of the Senate right under the Jedi's noses, and sure he can conceal his powers but we're not exactly talking about things like:

 

Palptine: "You will vote for Palpatine."

Random guy: "I will vote for Palpatine."

Random Jedi Master: "I don't sense the Force so that must be totally legit."

 

Palpatine obviously had enough political talent to make his rise to power look reasonable, and he certainly can't use any of his Force powers while being watched by a Jedi. So to defeat Star Wars you'd just need to work harder than Star Wars at their own game. Get better at espionage, manufacturing, and get ready to throw around trillions of lives as cannon fodder. Make sure you exterminate every Force user you run into, and whatever you do don't ever build superweapons or rely on anything similar to do it because there's always a Force user you missed somewhere that will see through that and totally screw you up.

 

The Borg would make very good frontline troops in this example, but don't count on the secrecy/difficulty of accessing the Hive to be a long term deterrent. If Picard can join the Collective it's only a matter of time before a Force user figures it out too. You'd want to use the Borg to wear down as many worlds as you can before they're inevitably stopped, and you must be prepared to get into something like the Siege of Coruscant or Battle of Corellia where the fight is only determined by which side had more stupid amount of people to send to their death to win. Now can Star Trek possibly do all that? I guess anything's possible, but they seem to be way too attached to their technology that I really don't see them adapting the scorched earth policy that'd be needed to defeat Star Wars at their own game.

[liammozz]

the borg are from a totally different universe so the odds are the force wouldn't affect them just like the Yuuzhan Vong, if thats the case the jedi would be screwed

[GarfieldJL]

The Borg would make very good frontline troops in this example, but don't count on the secrecy/difficulty of accessing the Hive to be a long term deterrent. If Picard can join the Collective it's only a matter of time before a Force user figures it out too. You'd want to use the Borg to wear down as many worlds as you can before they're inevitably stopped, and you must be prepared to get into something like the Siege of Coruscant or Battle of Corellia where the fight is only determined by which side had more stupid amount of people to send to their death to win. Now can Star Trek possibly do all that? I guess anything's possible, but they seem to be way too attached to their technology that I really don't see them adapting the scorched earth policy that'd be needed to defeat Star Wars at their own game.

 

Picard was assimilated by the Borg, and Data was hacking into the Borg Collective through their link to Picard... I'm sorry but R2-D2 isn't as sophisticated as Data.

 

Every person in the Star Wars universe would be a potential new drone... Considering your own people can be turned against you by the Borg, I'm not sure that having superior numbers alone would help.

 

In the case of the Federation vs. the Galactic Alliance, it would be inconclusive because the Federation isn't exactly warlike and both the Federation and the Galactic Alliance have extremely similar ideals.

Edited August 15, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Captain_Lurker]

Honestly I should not touch this subject with a Nerf prod, but I think I have to put an extra voice in here.

 

One problem I see with the Star Trek advocates is the ideology that Star Trek technology is superior. There is little if any evidence of that. Are there numerous planetary shield systems in Star Trek (by the Federation or other comperable tech societies), planetary phaser arrays (to the scale of in Star Wars), selective shields (Star Wars shields seem to be able to allow somethings and not others) and shields that aborb all of the damage until lost, tractor beams that go through shields, droids, and probably a few more. Star Trek has certain technology that Star Wars doesnt, but it more shows the genre of each universe then if one was more superior to the other. Star Wars was about a galactic struggle, while Star trek was about space exploration and each had technology that was more in line with the genre.

 

Sorry GarfieldJL but you bring forth some of the worse Star Trek bias on the scale of "ultimate force powers/user". There are numerous things in the Star Trek universe that seem really powerful but fail the plausability check. And sorry if it will seem like I am singling you out (many others have made credulous claims).

 

 

Walsh you've done so little research into Star Trek that you didn't realize there were more than 2 phaser arrays on a Galaxy class starship...

 

This made me chuckle in two ways. You are correct and somone "who really knows Star Trek" should remember it. Though honestly I hadent recalled the extra phasor banks because of the second part. Honestly, how often do you see any of the Galaxy Class starships seperated. Besides the first season or two of TNG and the movie you almost never see it again. There are large battles in DS9 where you see Galaxy Class Starships still fighting with the saucer sections... (probably due to poor directing)

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat%27leth

 

It's more dangerous than you are claiming.

 

The Batleth (like the Double Lightsaber) is a neat looking weapon, but a very poor design. The article basicly states that they are dangerous "like a gun or knife" ie, like any blade weapon, not that they are an effective weapon design.

 

 

 

Vibroswords would be more effective, but the Borg have ranged weapons, and it is harder to deflect weapons fire with a Vibrosword...

 

As long as the vibroblade could take the damage of the weapon (they might also be able to use the force to increase the strength of the vibroblade, as they do with a Lightsaber), they can deflect the attack. The ability to deflect is more based off of their use of the force then anything.

 

In the afforementioned (sp?) scenarios: (Please note that the OP I think added that tech was going to be "of similar power")

 

The Galactic Empire(RotJ, not post-RotJ) vs The Dominion (DS9)

 

Depends on the Empire "in use". Is it just the ROTJ ships? Or does it include all of the ships from other sources that were in existence at the time? Is it an all ships involved? Is it a one time fight or a "war campaign"? The Empire depicted in the ROTJ movie is well...weak, the Empire with ships from other sources (Interdictors, Carrack Light Cruisers, TIE Interceptors, TIE Gunships, Super Star DestroyerS) would have a better chance. If the Empire could bring all of its ships to bear it would obliterate the Dominion (just due to the shear numbers of ships that were subjugating and destroying worlds through out the galaxy). The Dominion ships are more agile (especially the small ones), and for their size would likely have better damage capability... but the Star Wars ships have tractor beams (which they use very frequently to halt enemy ships to blast them), small agile fighters (TIEs and TIE Interceptors), and their shielding seems to absorb all damage until lost.

 

The Undine(Species 8472 from Voyager) vs The Yuuzhan Vong.

 

Honestly I do not know enough of either species (especially the Undine) to make a good decision.

 

The Borg Collective vs the Galactic Alliance.

 

Again some variables that need to be determined. How effective would Ion Cannons be? Theoretically if the Borg could not "adapt" they would be destroyed quickly as cybernetics would be vulnerable and they would lose numerous drones and the ability to connect to each other. Could the Borg "adapt" to Turbolasers? They are "similar" to plasma weapons in which they hurl "bolts" of fiery death, not just a energy beam. Could a shield really adapt to that? The Borg in many ways are part of Star Treks "force users", they have abilities that far exceed what normally could be done.

 

Note: In my opinion the idea of "adaptive" shields that a one moment are unable to stop a force, but with a "adjustment" (ie a calibration or reprogramming) are then able to is bunk. The main thing that would determine if a shield would be able to stop a force would be its strength relative to the strength of the force. The only exception would be if the weapon relies on a "wave length" shearing or electron bombardment (irradiating). Just because you arange the energy field a slightly different way does not mean it will suddenly become immune to an attack (slightly more effective maybe). If you have a brick wall that has to sustain a hit it makes little difference in how it is arranged, more on how thick it is (its strength).

 

Klingon Empire vs The Sith Empire(TOR)

 

Hmmm, well the Sith Empire(TOR) is considerably smaller than any of the other Star Wars militaries and lacks some of the later technology that would really be effective (tractor beams). The Sith Empire would probably lose a space battle due to those. But a Sith (any old Sith) would slaughter numerous Klingons in hand to hand combat if given the chance (and knowing the Sith they would probably try their best to get a fight on their own terms).

[SNCommand]

I think I read somewhere that Hyperspace beats anything in Star Trek when it comes to traversal speed, and that would make a major difference in any conflict

[GarfieldJL]

Sorry GarfieldJL but you bring forth some of the worse Star Trek bias on the scale of "ultimate force powers/user". There are numerous things in the Star Trek universe that seem really powerful but fail the plausability check. And sorry if it will seem like I am singling you out (many others have made credulous claims).

 

 

A ship that is powered by a matter/antimatter reaction vs. a ship powered by a fusion reactor... Sorry but this is basic physics, a matter/antimatter reaction makes a fusion reaction look like a complete joke. Top that off Star Trek ships are generally smaller than Star Wars ships, so you have a smaller ship with a higher energy output, fighting a larger ship with a lower energy output... Since these are spacefaring races with energy shielding, the smaller ship would win.

 

 

This made me chuckle in two ways. You are correct and somone "who really knows Star Trek" should remember it. Though honestly I hadent recalled the extra phasor banks because of the second part. Honestly, how often do you see any of the Galaxy Class starships seperated. Besides the first season or two of TNG and the movie you almost never see it again. There are large battles in DS9 where you see Galaxy Class Starships still fighting with the saucer sections... (probably due to poor directing)

 

The Saucer section generally wasn't seperated from the Stardrive section for a very obvious reason, it didn't have Warp Drive capability. Thus most Galaxy Class Captains would not engage saucer seperation because there would be no way for the Saucer Section to escape the fighting and the Saucer section couldn't do repeated landings on a planet (it was too big).

 

To get to your question about the Saucer seperation, it was seen 3 times in the series Encounter at Farpoint (pilot episode), The Arsenal of Freedom which was in season 1, and then in Season 4, "Best of Both Worlds Part II" (it is the second most well known episode in the TNG series, the first is actually "Best of Both Worlds Part I" and was TNG's first cliffhanger).

 

The in production reason for why Saucer Seperation wasn't used very often is because they were working with a different production model. The original large model was 6 ft long, while the newer model which was rolled out in the middle of season 3 that was only 4 feet long and had more details than the larger model. The 6ft model was rolled out of mothballs for the saucer seperation scene in the season 4 opening episode. One of the reasons why that episode is so memorable is because there was speculation that they were going to kill off Captain Picard and have Riker take over as Captain of the Enterprise.

 

The Batleth (like the Double Lightsaber) is a neat looking weapon, but a very poor design. The article basicly states that they are dangerous "like a gun or knife" ie, like any blade weapon, not that they are an effective weapon design.

 

In the hands of a rank amateur, the weapon is a rather bad one, in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing, it is a pretty dang effective weapon.

 

 

As long as the vibroblade could take the damage of the weapon (they might also be able to use the force to increase the strength of the vibroblade, as they do with a Lightsaber), they can deflect the attack. The ability to deflect is more based off of their use of the force then anything.

 

Yes and no, I highly doubt many Jedi know how to do what you are suggesting, if we are talking the Old Republic Jedi, you would have a fair point, but I think that technique may have been lost.

 

In the afforementioned (sp?) scenarios: (Please note that the OP I think added that tech was going to be "of similar power")

 

While he mentioned of similar power, that doesn't mean that their powerplants would have a similar output.

 

The Galactic Empire(RotJ, not post-RotJ) vs The Dominion (DS9)

 

Depends on the Empire "in use". Is it just the ROTJ ships? Or does it include all of the ships from other sources that were in existence at the time? Is it an all ships involved? Is it a one time fight or a "war campaign"? The Empire depicted in the ROTJ movie is well...weak, the Empire with ships from other sources (Interdictors, Carrack Light Cruisers, TIE Interceptors, TIE Gunships, Super Star DestroyerS) would have a better chance. If the Empire could bring all of its ships to bear it would obliterate the Dominion (just due to the shear numbers of ships that were subjugating and destroying worlds through out the galaxy). The Dominion ships are more agile (especially the small ones), and for their size would likely have better damage capability... but the Star Wars ships have tractor beams (which they use very frequently to halt enemy ships to blast them), small agile fighters (TIEs and TIE Interceptors), and their shielding seems to absorb all damage until lost.

 

Problem for the Empire is that Dominion weapons were designed to actually blast through shields, that's why they were so effective and why ablative hull armor was added to many Federation ships (that and the Borg's ability to wreck shields).

 

Given the proton torpedo's 2 km range limit, it appears that Star Wars fighters aren't as fast as people advertise.

 

Now if the Empire can get viable tractor locks on the small Dominion Attack ships, they can probably take those out, that class of ship wasn't exactly the most heavily shielded.

 

The Undine(Species 8472 from Voyager) vs The Yuuzhan Vong.

 

Honestly I do not know enough of either species (especially the Undine) to make a good decision.

 

Species 8472 has ships that are capable of adapting at least as quickly as the Borg are, they basically scare the Borg Collective. Their ships are capable of blowing up planets, they would be totally immune to those coral growth things of the Vong because their incredible immune systems, and they are all very powerful telepaths.

 

The Borg Collective vs the Galactic Alliance.

 

Again some variables that need to be determined. How effective would Ion Cannons be? Theoretically if the Borg could not "adapt" they would be destroyed quickly as cybernetics would be vulnerable and they would lose numerous drones and the ability to connect to each other. Could the Borg "adapt" to Turbolasers? They are "similar" to plasma weapons in which they hurl "bolts" of fiery death, not just a energy beam. Could a shield really adapt to that? The Borg in many ways are part of Star Treks "force users", they have abilities that far exceed what normally could be done.

 

Note: In my opinion the idea of "adaptive" shields that a one moment are unable to stop a force, but with a "adjustment" (ie a calibration or reprogramming) are then able to is bunk. The main thing that would determine if a shield would be able to stop a force would be its strength relative to the strength of the force. The only exception would be if the weapon relies on a "wave length" shearing or electron bombardment (irradiating). Just because you arange the energy field a slightly different way does not mean it will suddenly become immune to an attack (slightly more effective maybe). If you have a brick wall that has to sustain a hit it makes little difference in how it is arranged, more on how thick it is (its strength).

 

The Borg have encountered Plasma weapons in the past, so the effectiveness of Turbolasers is questionable. Their ships are also able to physically regenerate so in order to permanently knock said ship out of action you pretty much have to take it out right then. Plus what one Borg ship learns they all learn, so if you take out a cube or two, the next cube to show up will have all the information about how you defeated the first cube.

 

Klingon Empire vs The Sith Empire(TOR)

 

Hmmm, well the Sith Empire(TOR) is considerably smaller than any of the other Star Wars militaries and lacks some of the later technology that would really be effective (tractor beams). The Sith Empire would probably lose a space battle due to those. But a Sith (any old Sith) would slaughter numerous Klingons in hand to hand combat if given the chance (and knowing the Sith they would probably try their best to get a fight on their own terms).

 

I'd say the Federation would be more dangerous to the Sith Empire due to phasers having a better range of options including some attacks that a lightsaber probably couldn't deflect (wide beam).

 

It's a tough call, I would say it would more depend on how often the Klingons used their ship's cloaks and how often the Sith detect them before decloaking...

 

 

I need to point something out for all of you Star Wars fans, Star Wars isn't the only genre to have tractor beams, Star Trek not only has tractor beams, but also tried and true tactics of defeating tractor beam locks.

[GarfieldJL]

I think I read somewhere that Hyperspace beats anything in Star Trek when it comes to traversal speed, and that would make a major difference in any conflict

 

Actually Quantum Slipstream Drive in Star Trek matches and even can exceed Hyperdrives by a pretty big margin.

[Astarica]

the borg are from a totally different universe so the odds are the force wouldn't affect them just like the Yuuzhan Vong, if thats the case the jedi would be screwed

 

Force visions still trumps immunity to force for all practical purposes. A guy could be in hiding in a space completely filled with ysalamiris, and yet that doesn't stop a random guy from seeing that you can send a random kid to defeat a guy in an area where the Force has no effect. Instead of seeing a random Padawan being one to pull it off you'd probably see maybe Han Solo instead since obviously you can't count on any Force users to do anything useful in such an environment. Again the guy seeing the Vision needs not to have any idea of the threat or even be able to comprehend it to see how a solution exists.

 

While there are certainly species resistant to Force, being resistant to Force isn't going to somehow make Jedi/Sith's Force enhanced physical attributes any worse. In fact at least in SWTOR it's implied you can clearly train a normal guy to the point where they can fight a Jedi Knight (not Master) but it obviously costs a ton of time, money, talent, and equipment to do it, whereas the Jedi Knight could be a guy with fairly ordinary training who just happened to be able to use the Force. So, if anything Jedi/Sith always represent a super cheap way to get some elite soldiers for basically negligible cost. In the Sith Inquisitor story, there's a scene where you can talk to Andronikos and you say soemthing like "Why do you rely on blasters" and he says: "Sorry chief, but not all of us can just shoot lightning from our fingertips." Outside of the named Force users, a Jedi Knight or a Sith Warrior is more like just limit of what talent/training can get you in a single guy, except they don't need any equipment and minimal training to pull it off.

 

That said if Borg just say assimilated all the tech/tactics, so that they know the inherent weaknesses of all Star Wars tactics but do not magically become invinicible. That is, every fight would look like the Borg was commanded by Thrawn who knows all there is to know about strategy and technology, but is not undefeatable (Thrawn lost in straight up fights before, and he has no ability to deal with Force-enhanced tactics such as when Mara Jade used the Force to sense his interdictor reinforcements to avoid the trap). This would mean Borg will win 9 out of every 10 fights but this shouldn't invoke the 'omg need a vision' clause. I don't think I can recall a case in Star Wars where anybody see a vision to deal with the fact that the enemy is simply better at fighting them. The vision almost always exclusively happens as a response to an equivalent of the 'Iwin' button, so any foes of Star Wars needs to just accept that winning 9 out of 10 battles and slowly wearing down the Star Wars is about the only way you can do this.

 

Note that given the size of the relative universes, Star Wars can afford to lose 9 out of 10 battles for a pretty long time against say the Borg, and in fact if you look at the published numbers which puts millions of star systems versus hundreds for the Federation, they'd probably win overall while losing 9 out of 10 battles just because they have way more resources to burn. Therefore even if you can win 9 out of 10 battles, you must ensure your industrial base/population is at least within an order of magnitude of that of Star Wars. This means instead of Borg operating from a hundreds of planets they'd need to expand for a bit to at least have say 100000 planets, to ensure their industrial base is enough to keep up with a Star Wars univers that may have millions of planets. Again, I stress that to beat Star Wars you need 'hard work'. You can't just expect to start with 5 planets and 10 ships and hope some magic technology gets you through. Star Wars univers lost 365 trillion sentinent beings in the war against Yuuzhan Vong. If you want to succeed where the Yuuzhan Vong failed a good start is to ensure you at least brought hundreds of trillions of guys to fight too, since Star Wars definitely will throw hundreds of trillions of guys at you.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Astarica

[GarfieldJL]

Force visions still trumps immunity to force for all practical purposes. A guy could be in hiding in a space completely filled with ysalamiris, and yet that doesn't stop a random guy from seeing that you can send a random kid to defeat a guy in an area where the Force has no effect. Instead of seeing a random Padawan being one to pull it off you'd probably see maybe Han Solo instead since obviously you can't count on any Force users to do anything useful in such an environment. Again the guy seeing the Vision needs not to have any idea of the threat or even be able to comprehend it to see how a solution exists.

 

While there are certainly species resistant to Force, being resistant to Force isn't going to somehow make Jedi/Sith's Force enhanced physical attributes any worse. In fact at least in SWTOR it's implied you can clearly train a normal guy to the point where they can fight a Jedi Knight (not Master) but it obviously costs a ton of time, money, talent, and equipment to do it, whereas the Jedi Knight could be a guy with fairly ordinary training who just happened to be able to use the Force. So, if anything Jedi/Sith always represent a super cheap way to get some elite soldiers for basically negligible cost. In the Sith Inquisitor story, there's a scene where you can talk to Andronikos and you say soemthing like "Why do you rely on blasters" and he says: "Sorry chief, but not all of us can just shoot lightning from our fingertips." Outside of the named Force users, a Jedi Knight or a Sith Warrior is more like just limit of what talent/training can get you in a single guy, except they don't need any equipment and minimal training to pull it off.

 

That said if Borg just say assimilated all the tech/tactics, so that they know the inherent weaknesses of all Star Wars tactics but do not magically become invinicible. That is, every fight would look like the Borg was commanded by Thrawn who knows all there is to know about strategy and technology, but is not undefeatable (Thrawn lost in straight up fights before, and he has no ability to deal with Force-enhanced tactics such as when Mara Jade used the Force to sense his interdictor reinforcements to avoid the trap). This would mean Borg will win 9 out of every 10 fights but this shouldn't invoke the 'omg need a vision' clause. I don't think I can recall a case in Star Wars where anybody see a vision to deal with the fact that the enemy is simply better at fighting them. The vision almost always exclusively happens as a response to an equivalent of the 'Iwin' button, so any foes of Star Wars needs to just accept that winning 9 out of 10 battles and slowly wearing down the Star Wars is about the only way you can do this.

 

Note that given the size of the relative universes, Star Wars can afford to lose 9 out of 10 battles for a pretty long time against say the Borg, and in fact if you look at the published numbers which puts millions of star systems versus hundreds for the Federation, they'd probably win overall while losing 9 out of 10 battles just because they have way more resources to burn. Therefore even if you can win 9 out of 10 battles, you must ensure your industrial base/population is at least within an order of magnitude of that of Star Wars. This means instead of Borg operating from a hundreds of planets they'd need to expand for a bit to at least have say 100000 planets, to ensure their industrial base is enough to keep up with a Star Wars univers that may have millions of planets. Again, I stress that to beat Star Wars you need 'hard work'. You can't just expect to start with 5 planets and 10 ships and hope some magic technology gets you through. Star Wars univers lost 365 trillion sentinent beings in the war against Yuuzhan Vong. If you want to succeed where the Yuuzhan Vong failed a good start is to ensure you at least brought hundreds of trillions of guys to fight too, since Star Wars definitely will throw hundreds of trillions of guys at you.

 

When the Borg adapt to a weapon technology you may as well be shooting blanks... I'm sorry but in order to defeat the Borg you need to use rather unorthodox tactics, considering there really isn't any art to study Grand Admiral Thrawn would have a serious problem fighting them. You see a lot more innovative tactics from the Federation than you do in the Star Wars universe...

[Sipah]

I see lots of arguing around the fact that the Empire would not have a map of the Federation to safely hyper around wherever they will. I got news for you: Quark or any other entrepreneurial information broker would very likely sell a full set of Federation navigational maps to the Empire for a couple chests of whatever precious metals they desire

 

Of course I expect a fanboi (including those that vehemently deny being one) to state that Quark would be too principled to do such a thing or that the navigational maps are super secret, non-transferable, encrypted with an unbreakable code, or some other techno-babble that would prevent the Empire from using their superior speed in any way.

[Astarica]

When the Borg adapt to a weapon technology you may as well be shooting blanks... I'm sorry but in order to defeat the Borg you need to use rather unorthodox tactics, considering there really isn't any art to study Grand Admiral Thrawn would have a serious problem fighting them. You see a lot more innovative tactics from the Federation than you do in the Star Wars universe...

 

So what did the Borg just never managed to adapt to any technology of anyone around them since they sure haven't finished conquering their section of the galaxy yet? From what you claim if they adapt to any technology they can't lose but yet they obviously didn't win the whole thing.

 

Despite the fact even in Star Trek Borg didn't make the leap of 'adapt a technology = autowin', though making such a leap just turns you into autolose given Star Wars' comprehensive defense against Iwin buttons.

 

Again Star Trek fans want their universe to work without even putting in some fictional 'hard work'. In theory Star Wars has been colonizing the galaxy for thousands of years and building trillions or even quadrillion of lifeforms to draw resources from. When a new threat arise those guys have been plotting for tens if not hundreds of years and buliding an equally massive army, and generally already conquered as much of the known galaxy as they can before confronting whatever power that is currently in charge.

 

Star Trek want to the easy way, which is funny since it's all fiction technically it's just as easy for Star Trek civilization to setup a massive industrial base like the guys in Star Wars did. But no they're always starting with their 10 planets and 50 ships and hope some magic tech will bail them out even though Star Wars has a comprehensive defense against Iwin buttons. To put things quite simply, Star Wars dominant power generally do harness a significant portion of their galaxy's total resources (millions of planets, trillions of lifeforms), while the Star Trek guys are operating from a handful of major planets and somehow expect that to be a threat against a civilization that is truly galaxy-spanning. It's not Star Wars' fault that even though the average galaxy has billions of star systems but a major power only colonized about a hundred star systems. Maybe the Star Trek world just has a lot less habitable worlds compared to Star Wars, but in that case it sucks to be them. When you only have the resources of about a hundred star systems at your disposal versus someone with a million star systems, you probably won't win even if you have a significant technology advantage.

 

There's no reason to believe any Star Trek civilization can fight a battles ike Battle of Corellia where 1/10th of the Imperial Forces died as quoted in game SWTOR. Given the population size difference of the two universes, there's a very good chance this number is comparable to the number of sentinent lifeforms in the Star Trek universe. It's pretty hilarious to talk about these 'massive Borg drone invasions' when Star Wars's armed forces is most likely greater than the population of the entire Star Trek universe. No that doesn't mean they can't lose but if your total population is smaller than your enemy's armed forces there is absolutely nothing 'massive' about whatever attack you launch.

[Astarica]

I see lots of arguing around the fact that the Empire would not have a map of the Federation to safely hyper around wherever they will. I got news for you: Quark or any other entrepreneurial information broker would very likely sell a full set of Federation navigational maps to the Empire for a couple chests of whatever precious metals they desire

 

Of course I expect a fanboi (including those that vehemently deny being one) to state that Quark would be too principled to do such a thing or that the navigational maps are super secret, non-transferable, encrypted with an unbreakable code, or some other techno-babble that would prevent the Empire from using their superior speed in any way.

 

The Republic would be pretty vulnerable to espionage given half of their superweapons got stolen by the Empire in SWTOR. The Empire doesn't seem to be as vulnerable to espionage though with Sith in charge of everything they probably end up using the superweapons on each other anyway.

[liammozz]

Force visions still trumps immunity to force for all practical purposes. A guy could be in hiding in a space completely filled with ysalamiris, and yet that doesn't stop a random guy from seeing that you can send a random kid to defeat a guy in an area where the Force has no effect. Instead of seeing a random Padawan being one to pull it off you'd probably see maybe Han Solo instead since obviously you can't count on any Force users to do anything useful in such an environment. Again the guy seeing the Vision needs not to have any idea of the threat or even be able to comprehend it to see how a solution exists.

 

so no matter what the odds what the case is under any circumstance some kid/jedi or whatever will always slip through, magical instaport using the force or some other highly imaginativene way to the right place at the right time and save the day?

 

thats just stupid i mean come on that's worse than Q clicking his fingers and doing what he wants at least the Q have flaws and weaknesses plus you got to admit he has a certain kind of charm you just got to love

 

While there are certainly species resistant to Force, being resistant to Force isn't going to somehow make Jedi/Sith's Force enhanced physical attributes any worse. In fact at least in SWTOR it's implied you can clearly train a normal guy to the point where they can fight a Jedi Knight (not Master) but it obviously costs a ton of time, money, talent, and equipment to do it, whereas the Jedi Knight could be a guy with fairly ordinary training who just happened to be able to use the Force. So, if anything Jedi/Sith always represent a super cheap way to get some elite soldiers for basically negligible cost. In the Sith Inquisitor story, there's a scene where you can talk to Andronikos and you say soemthing like "Why do you rely on blasters" and he says: "Sorry chief, but not all of us can just shoot lightning from our fingertips." Outside of the named Force users, a Jedi Knight or a Sith Warrior is more like just limit of what talent/training can get you in a single guy, except they don't need any equipment and minimal training to pull it off.

 

the way i was looking at it was a jedi using force powers and a lightsaber it would be the same as the jedi fighting a droidika, one on one the jedi wins if hes out numbered hes quite frankly fooked

 

That said if Borg just say assimilated all the tech/tactics, so that they know the inherent weaknesses of all Star Wars tactics but do not magically become invinicible. That is, every fight would look like the Borg was commanded by Thrawn who knows all there is to know about strategy and technology, but is not undefeatable (Thrawn lost in straight up fights before, and he has no ability to deal with Force-enhanced tactics such as when Mara Jade used the Force to sense his interdictor reinforcements to avoid the trap). This would mean Borg will win 9 out of every 10 fights but this shouldn't invoke the 'omg need a vision' clause. I don't think I can recall a case in Star Wars where anybody see a vision to deal with the fact that the enemy is simply better at fighting them. The vision almost always exclusively happens as a response to an equivalent of the 'Iwin' button, so any foes of Star Wars needs to just accept that winning 9 out of 10 battles and slowly wearing down the Star Wars is about the only way you can do this.

 

totally agree with you there

 

Note that given the size of the relative universes, Star Wars can afford to lose 9 out of 10 battles for a pretty long time against say the Borg, and in fact if you look at the published numbers which puts millions of star systems versus hundreds for the Federation, they'd probably win overall while losing 9 out of 10 battles just because they have way more resources to burn. Therefore even if you can win 9 out of 10 battles, you must ensure your industrial base/population is at least within an order of magnitude of that of Star Wars. This means instead of Borg operating from a hundreds of planets they'd need to expand for a bit to at least have say 100000 planets, to ensure their industrial base is enough to keep up with a Star Wars univers that may have millions of planets. Again, I stress that to beat Star Wars you need 'hard work'. You can't just expect to start with 5 planets and 10 ships and hope some magic technology gets you through. Star Wars univers lost 365 trillion sentinent beings in the war against Yuuzhan Vong. If you want to succeed where the Yuuzhan Vong failed a good start is to ensure you at least brought hundreds of trillions of guys to fight too, since Star Wars definitely will throw hundreds of trillions of guys at you.

 

this really wont affect the borg though more numbers against them just means more drones to replace the fallen, give 10 borg half a hour in the corosaunt slums and they have x10 there numbers hacked into the citys systems and are using planetary weapons against the planet

[Captain_Lurker]

 

A ship that is powered by a matter/antimatter reaction vs. a ship powered by a fusion reactor... Sorry but this is basic physics, a matter/antimatter reaction makes a fusion reaction look like a complete joke. Top that off Star Trek ships are generally smaller than Star Wars ships, so you have a smaller ship with a higher energy output, fighting a larger ship with a lower energy output... Since these are spacefaring races with energy shielding, the smaller ship would win.

 

Can you point me to a working matter/anti-matter power generator and show me how much energy it is producing on a regular basis? How do we know that the energy produced is any considerable amount? If anti-matter power is so awesome why does it use plasma conduits to transfer power, when plasma is "such an old technology", and why is the backup power system (typically a battery system, possibly deuterium) capable of operating the ship for an extended time if anti-matter is so much energy out put?

 

Are Star Wars ships really just Fusion/Fission power? Or are they anti-matter or maybe hypermatter or maybe tibana powered super tech?

 

Again you make an assertion which has little to back it up and much that contradicts it.

 

The Saucer section generally wasn't seperated from the Stardrive section for a very obvious reason, it didn't have Warp Drive capability. Thus most Galaxy Class Captains would not engage saucer seperation because there would be no way for the Saucer Section to escape the fighting and the Saucer section couldn't do repeated landings on a planet (it was too big).

 

To get to your question about the Saucer seperation, it was seen 3 times in the series Encounter at Farpoint (pilot episode), The Arsenal of Freedom which was in season 1, and then in Season 4, "Best of Both Worlds Part II" (it is the second most well known episode in the TNG series, the first is actually "Best of Both Worlds Part I" and was TNG's first cliffhanger).

 

The in production reason for why Saucer Seperation wasn't used very often is because they were working with a different production model. The original large model was 6 ft long, while the newer model which was rolled out in the middle of season 3 that was only 4 feet long and had more details than the larger model. The 6ft model was rolled out of mothballs for the saucer seperation scene in the season 4 opening episode. One of the reasons why that episode is so memorable is because there was speculation that they were going to kill off Captain Picard and have Riker take over as Captain of the Enterprise.

 

Check the DS9 episodes (especially the final battle) and you see several Galaxy Class starships (some of which had planety of time to prepare for battle, ie seperate) with their saucer section attached. if the writers/directors of Star Trek cant keep with their own canon, cant expect others to really expect it to stay the same (who knows, maybe they were getting rid of the concept of seperation, or limiting it to the Enterprise).

 

 

In the hands of a rank amateur, the weapon is a rather bad one, in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing, it is a pretty dang effective weapon.

 

In the hands of an expert a pen knife is deadly also, doesnt mean it is a good weapon. The batleth can beweilded like a sword, a tonfa, or a short staff. Unlike the sword it lacks a hilt (hint, watch those hands/fingers from getting sliced), unlike a tonfa it cannot be easily swung around (the tonfa can spin in a closed hand, the Batleth cannot), and unlike a staff the Batleth is short, making its range very limilted. Its great that people are creating a martial form for it, but it still doesnt negate its poor design.

 

Yes and no, I highly doubt many Jedi know how to do what you are suggesting, if we are talking the Old Republic Jedi, you would have a fair point, but I think that technique may have been lost.

 

From what I have seen/read Lightsaber combat (empowering your Lightsaber and blocking/reflecting with it) is THE most basic skill of the Jedi/Sith. It is the first skill learned, for many it is their most powerful ability, and for even those who rarely use a Lightsaber it is still something they know.

 

Problem for the Empire is that Dominion weapons were designed to actually blast through shields, that's why they were so effective and why ablative hull armor was added to many Federation ships (that and the Borg's ability to wreck shields).

 

Given the proton torpedo's 2 km range limit, it appears that Star Wars fighters aren't as fast as people advertise.

 

Now if the Empire can get viable tractor locks on the small Dominion Attack ships, they can probably take those out, that class of ship wasn't exactly the most heavily shielded.

 

The Federation shields suck...period. It is constantly: "Sir, our shields are down to 60% and w, x, y, and z damage has been sustained". The Federation shields only block some damage. Star Wars (as seen in movies, most books, every game) shields take all damage until lost. Although I would imagine the shields being lost more rapidly, they would still keep the ship alive until lost.

 

The proton torpedo's range is shorter due to its ability to greatly adjust its vector. 180 degree turn? Sure. Another two or three turns? Yup. you dont see that often with the Photon torpedo (except in one of the movies). It takes more space and fuel to manuever.

 

The Borg have encountered Plasma weapons in the past, so the effectiveness of Turbolasers is questionable. Their ships are also able to physically regenerate so in order to permanently knock said ship out of action you pretty much have to take it out right then. Plus what one Borg ship learns they all learn, so if you take out a cube or two, the next cube to show up will have all the information about how you defeated the first cube.

 

What if their communication was disconnected? An Ion shot would do such and therefor the next ship(s) would lack any new information.

 

 

I'd say the Federation would be more dangerous to the Sith Empire due to phasers having a better range of options including some attacks that a lightsaber probably couldn't deflect (wide beam).

 

It's a tough call, I would say it would more depend on how often the Klingons used their ship's cloaks and how often the Sith detect them before decloaking...

 

I need to point something out for all of you Star Wars fans, Star Wars isn't the only genre to have tractor beams, Star Trek not only has tractor beams, but also tried and true tactics of defeating tractor beam locks.

 

Um, its the Klingons, not the Federation, vs the Sith. not too sure if Klingons have all of the options that the Federation does (or if the really use phasors).

 

True, Star Trek has tractor beams, but they dont seem to be as effective (cant lock onto a shielded ship, rarely are able to stop a same size ship in its tracks, ect). The Star Wars tractor beams are a main part of their capital ship combat tactic: manuever into a better position then your oponent, lock them into place with the tractor beam, pummel to death.

 

In one of the Zahn novels Luke(?) is able to get away from a tractor beam only because he was well prepared. he was piloting a light freighter with his X-Wing inside. When the Freighter was caught, he moved into his X-Wing, blew open the Freigther and released chaff and was barely able to get away (the tractor beam operator was sweeping the chaff away to try to relock onto him, got him a promotion under Thrawn).

 

Edited due to error in quote usage

Edited August 16, 2012 by Captain_Lurker
Bad quoting use