Yestreen Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Stealth Removal There was no announcement per say, BW just stealth removed the in-game text referring to Season one having Cross server and Single Ques. ( Text was right at bottom under warzone information @ Join wz button ) I used to reference that when talking to friends etc. Then one day it was gone .... Could mean anything though but lack of cross server will bury competitive element left in this game. Sure there will be more people playing when f2p hits but competitively it is headed to boring-ville. Matchmaking As for the original topic, I mentioned this in first 2 weeks of pre-season but was duly brushed off. It is kinda obvious something was wrong when watch streams + listen to guild chat + other friends also qued. " Matchmaking" is a very loose term right now ... Damage Done ?? Back then i mentioned this issue in the context of DAMAGE it was doing to teams that were not ready and needed time to get stuff sorted etc. Having 1000 rated teams going up versus 1800 / 2000 rated over and over kinda destroyed the overall teams pools. Seems all those Bioware fabled Internal matrices are off marginal value. Also have to question why BW have no grasp on likely player psychology when outcome XXX happens over and over. Bound to happen that only the most resilient teams would stick through getting hammered day in and out. Very few would be capable of holding onto a rooster with depth. Probably one of the reasons you see more mixed groups these days. maybe they decided to not implement cross-server because they are going to put EVERYONE all on one, big mega server one can only hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 maybe they decided to not implement cross-server because they are going to put EVERYONE all on one, big mega server one can only hope. Laaaaaaaaag fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu But yeah, I guess it's possible, anything to bolster the amount of teams in rateds is good for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Does saying 'this is pre season' enough times makes the matchmaking system any less of a failure? The whole point of matchmaking is that you want to avoid starting games that are totally meaningless. In the real world if your top boxing champ or chess grandmaster doesn't have anyone at his level to play he doesn't just settle for the next Internet warrior instead because such a game is completely meaningless and a waste of time for both of the participants. In fact in most professional activity, the guy at the top probably plays considerably less than someone who is merely average since he's spending most of time waiting for someone who is even a challenge to him to show up, while the guy at the middle obviously has no shortage of reasonable opponents. And yes this means if your team is super awesome you might never have anyone to play against but if your team is truly super awesome and unbeatable, what's the point, in terms of establishing a ranking hierarchy, for anyone else to play you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Does saying 'this is pre season' enough times makes the matchmaking system any less of a failure? It's pre-season, they never said there was a match making system that would be coupled with it. Welcome to June 26th. And honestly, do you really think they will NOW put in a match making system? Really? =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 It's pre-season, they never said there was a match making system that would be coupled with it. Welcome to June 26th. And honestly, do you really think they will NOW put in a match making system? Really? =/ I don't think it's a stretch to say that if you rank someone on a scoring system you're probably supposed to make use of that. I know they technically neve said the matchmaking system (or lack there of) will make use of the current ratings, but it's a reasonable expectation. By the way a matchmaking system woudln't have to be anything fancy. It can start by ensuring nobody ever plays anyone more than 400 points above/below their team rating, which is pretty much the foundation of the ELO system. The 400 point difference represents a gap so wide that there's no point for the game to be played. Of course I know if you implemented this then RWZ will probably die because you'd have to be waiting for 3 hours in queue, but I don't take 'our population is so messed up we can't have any semblance of fair play' as an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) I don't think it's a stretch to say that if you rank someone on a scoring system you're probably supposed to make use of that. I know they technically neve said the matchmaking system (or lack there of) will make use of the current ratings, but it's a reasonable expectation. By the way a matchmaking system woudln't have to be anything fancy. It can start by ensuring nobody ever plays anyone more than 400 points above/below their team rating, which is pretty much the foundation of the ELO system. The 400 point difference represents a gap so wide that there's no point for the game to be played. Of course I know if you implemented this then RWZ will probably die because you'd have to be waiting for 3 hours in queue, but I don't take 'our population is so messed up we can't have any semblance of fair play' as an excuse. I don't disagree with you at all, lol, pretty sure everyone agrees. But as I said (or rather BW said), there will be a match making system come Season 1. As to why they don't have one for pre-season, my guess is they didn't finish coding that system before 1.3, so we got somewhat of a beta version. And I do believe that, because the queue system for these rated matches is beyond borked. Edited August 8, 2012 by Pistols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider-DDO Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) The game is in-blanced throughout its PVP, what did you expect? e.g level'11's vs level 49's, PT and Vangards, to name a few. They need to fix the class balance first, then there won't be so much face rolling with permades with FOTM character set ups. Slider Edited August 8, 2012 by Slider-DDO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) Stealth Removal There was no announcement per say, BW just stealth removed the in-game text referring to Season one having Cross server and Single Ques. ( Text was right at bottom under warzone information @ Join wz button ) I used to reference that when talking to friends etc. Then one day it was gone .... Could mean anything though but lack of cross server will bury competitive element left in this game. Sure there will be more people playing when f2p hits but competitively it is headed to boring-ville. This is disturbing and needs to be addressed (IMESHO). I'm not sure what "Singue Ques" (single queues) is. Perhaps that is a reference to queuing solo for rated? To make WZ work properly the absolute minimum is a decent match making algorithm. This requires cross server (or so Daniel Erickson tells us -- and I believe him). Solo queuing for rated? Nice but not essential in the near term. Bioware knows this (that is why the called it Preseason). The question is "does the ninja edit mentioned above mean that BW has effective stopped development of rated"? If they have stopped actively working on this you can be sure they won't tell us. Edited August 8, 2012 by funkiestj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I don't disagree with you at all, lol, pretty sure everyone agrees. But as I said (or rather BW said), there will be a match making system come Season 1. As to why they don't have one for pre-season, my guess is they didn't finish coding that system before 1.3, so we got somewhat of a beta version. And I do believe that, because the queue system for these rated matches is beyond borked. Rating system and matchmaking goes hand in hand. It'd be like saying you've a preview for a new car that doesn't have a steering wheel because hey nobody ever said steering wheel was included, got to wait for season 1 for that. Of course we all know the real reason why there's no matchmaking, because the population can't support it. Looking at the change in rating per game I believed they even picked a number smaller than 400 to represent the 'no way this match should happen' threshold. It might be as small as 200 and you might as well delete rated WZ from the game if you cannot match up with a team more than +-200 from you since it'd take hours before you get any games going. But having a non functional population base to support rated WZ is not the player's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Of course we all know the real reason why there's no matchmaking, because the population can't support it. Looking at the change in rating per game I believed they even picked a number smaller than 400 to represent the 'no way this match should happen' threshold. It might be as small as 200 and you might as well delete rated WZ from the game if you cannot match up with a team more than +-200 from you since it'd take hours before you get any games going. This is where there is room for innovation. The match making could offer your team the option to play a match with one of your premade dropping out (7 vs 8). They could also have the option of dropping 1 player from your team and inserting a weak player. In this way you could create competitive matches against wildly disparate teams. If the choice is between playing 7 and sitting 1 or waiting another 2 hours, you might prefer the former. Of course such clever matchmaking requires lots of development, experimentation and tuning. Not likely in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Rating system and matchmaking goes hand in hand. It'd be like saying you've a preview for a new car that doesn't have a steering wheel because hey nobody ever said steering wheel was included, got to wait for season 1 for that. Of course we all know the real reason why there's no matchmaking, because the population can't support it. Looking at the change in rating per game I believed they even picked a number smaller than 400 to represent the 'no way this match should happen' threshold. It might be as small as 200 and you might as well delete rated WZ from the game if you cannot match up with a team more than +-200 from you since it'd take hours before you get any games going. But having a non functional population base to support rated WZ is not the player's fault. You forget however, that players screamed for 8 man queue's for a very long time, whether or not this matches up during pre-season matters little to many. Honestly, I'd rather have the option to queue for 8, than worry about matching up accordingly, but that's my opinion. Match making will come soon enough, and it really hasn't been all that bad the last 6 weeks. I would assume, coupled with them not finishing the polish on Ranked, they wanted to give us a taste (pre-season) of what's to come. In short, it's better than que'ing with a 4 man group + 4 randoms with the same type of no match making system so.../shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Don't forget originally you could solo queue too. We'd expect solo queue guys to have lower scores in general compared to even say a team made of 7 other clones of the same guy, so this means it should be easy to do matchmaking on the lower end of the scores, which is the part that matters. Besides, there's really nothing clever you can do on the higher end of matchmaking. If you're the server's only 2000+ rated team and the next best team is rated 1600, this means nobody on the server has any business playing your team. You're at the top. The end. No more games for you until the rest of your server somehow improved its ability. It'd be similar to boxing how the top 2 guys only box once an year even though whoever they beat on seems to be just a punching bag, because it takes about an year before someone even becomes good enough to be a punching bag opponent for the top 2 guys. If you're truly that good you got to live with that, and I'd argue that's not exactly a bad thing. Not only players, but I think Bioware totally missed the boat on the fact that top teams should not be playing very often because there can't possibly be very many opponents at that level, or you wouldn't be a top team in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeliux Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 maybe they decided to not implement cross-server because they are going to put EVERYONE all on one, big mega server one can only hope. God help us if they decide to pile all of us together lawl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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