Immortal Jug Has problems holding Agro

[Tauntive]

I generally try to reserve judgement on classes until they are fully geared, but I'm played my immortal Jugg to the point where I've got 140+ augmented pieces in all slots. Survivability seems to be right, but even with top level gear I seem to struggle to hold agro. I'm not a novice player for Star Wars or for MMORPGs either.

 

The issue is very obvious on group trash pulls. The class doesn't seem to be designed to hold agro on groups. I do okay with it but it is a real challenge.

 

Here is some of the issues I encounter. I leap in. I smash. The smash hits the targets for 1 to 2 k. I might have enough rage to do one sweeping slash before the dps opens up with a volley of orbital bombardments and what not. The orbitals are ticking for 4k+. If I don't group taunt, I lose threat on about half the group.

 

I think the class needs some revamping. For some odd reason, sweeping slash seems to hit certain targets and skip over other ones. The ability cost way too much rage.

 

If I do a random daily. I usually get comments like, "Wow, you hold agro/threat way better than most Jugs I know."

 

The other thing about this class is that I can't seem to find a good rotation. The play style seems to be kind of like mole in a hole. You have all these abilities with cool downs. Anyway, I run with an Assassin and a Power Tech. Both of these classes seem to have an edge over the Jugg/Guardian in the arena of threat.

 

I'd be okay with not being able to hold threat on groups well if the class had an advantage for individual target threat, but there seems to be no advantage over the other classes in the area. Holding agro on individual targets is also a challenge.

[ImmortalAlien]

The issue is very obvious on group trash pulls. The class doesn't seem to be designed to hold agro on groups. I do okay with it but it is a real challenge.

 

Here is some of the issues I encounter. I leap in. I smash. The smash hits the targets for 1 to 2 k. I might have enough rage to do one sweeping slash before the dps opens up with a volley of orbital bombardments and what not. The orbitals are ticking for 4k+. If I don't group taunt, I lose threat on about half the group.

 

For as high geared as you claimed to be, you should have no problem with threat with single-target.

 

Against groups, things go a little different. You'll need to understand how threat works.

Tanks :: Produce threat through damage at a 2 threat per 1 damage rate to the target. Hate abilities produce more, as well as when they taunt and get 130% of the highest threat's threat.

DPS :: Produces threat through damage at a 1 threat per 1 damage rate to their target.

Healer :: Produces threat through healing at a 1 threat per 2 heals rate to everything within range.

 

Now you should be able to guess why you lose threat with large groups. Only do a 1k or 2k Smash to everything? Watch how that Orbital Strike easily eclipses your damage by at least twice as much as yours.

 

Ways to fix this:

- Spam Sweeping Slash. Face the enemies you want to hit.

- Guard the Agent using Orbital Strike or ask them to stop. This reduces their threat by 75%. Also, ask them to use their threat dump after a few seconds.

Edited August 1, 2012 by ImmortalAlien

[tmage]

I generally try to reserve judgement on classes until they are fully geared, but I'm played my immortal Jugg to the point where I've got 140+ augmented pieces in all slots. Survivability seems to be right, but even with top level gear I seem to struggle to hold agro. I'm not a novice player for Star Wars or for MMORPGs either.

 

The issue is very obvious on group trash pulls. The class doesn't seem to be designed to hold agro on groups. I do okay with it but it is a real challenge.

 

Here is some of the issues I encounter. I leap in. I smash. The smash hits the targets for 1 to 2 k. I might have enough rage to do one sweeping slash before the dps opens up with a volley of orbital bombardments and what not. The orbitals are ticking for 4k+. If I don't group taunt, I lose threat on about half the group.

 

I think the class needs some revamping. For some odd reason, sweeping slash seems to hit certain targets and skip over other ones. The ability cost way too much rage.

 

If I do a random daily. I usually get comments like, "Wow, you hold agro/threat way better than most Jugs I know."

 

The other thing about this class is that I can't seem to find a good rotation. The play style seems to be kind of like mole in a hole. You have all these abilities with cool downs. Anyway, I run with an Assassin and a Power Tech. Both of these classes seem to have an edge over the Jugg/Guardian in the arena of threat.

 

I'd be okay with not being able to hold threat on groups well if the class had an advantage for individual target threat, but there seems to be no advantage over the other classes in the area. Holding agro on individual targets is also a challenge.

 

 

Based on various things I've read when I started a Jugg tank, that's a deliberate design choice - Jugg/Guardian's excel at single target threat gen (i.e. bosses). The general lack of mobility of the class prevents us from doing the usually MMOM tank "round up and taunt" of multiple trash mobs.

 

This explains it a lot better than I can

 

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/06/overall-tank-comparison.html

 

If you want an AOE tank, Assassin/Shadow is your best bet.

[Helig]

Charge in=>Smash=>Enrage=>Sweeping=>Sunder=>Crushing=>Sweeping=>Sunder=>Sweeping spam.

 

AoE taunt if necessary.

 

0.0 problems here.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Helig

[Elyx]

Combination of "by design" and mechanic limitations.

 

Unlike our BH/*** bretheren, our resource is built. We are the only class in game that has this requirement. which really means that we are the only class that cannot front-load damage (and hence threat) up front.

 

Plus, the other two simply do more damage, especially now. our single target threat is fine (though im still mystified as to why they nerfed our damage while boosting threat...something they didn't do with the other two). but whatever, it works. Our AoE still sucks. it was fine initially after 1.3....until DPS classes started maxing their augments.

 

respecced my SC over to kinetic a short while ago...the amount of AoE threat we make is silly once you get the 31 pt skill. it's CS is so short I actually miss when it comes off CD...whereas on my jugg im often waiting for smash to be back up again. it does do less damage...but for some reason seems to pump out a ton of threat. perhaps its simply the shorter CD means i can pump it out more often. a mroe regular steady threat increase is better then a less often, spikier one. plus it avoids CC'ed targets...something our smash does not do.

[Racter]

Think it's on you man. One thing you don't seem to consider is tanking in swtor is not like it was in WoW. All we really need to do on trash is pick up the big guys. Normals and slivers are largely not our problem as long as they don't hit crazy hard. Not that I don't normally grab them, but I don't really have to. DPS should burn them down and then get on the big guy. If you have an operative orbital striking constantly, just guard them. Problem solved. If you have two, or a merc/pt doing a lot of AOE damage, guard one and use your AOE taunt after the first hit of their AOE lands. Usually works better to guard the merc/pt and AOE taunt off the operative. Mercs/PTs wreck on a massive scale in PVE right now.

 

Use your taunts! Should be on cool down all day. I don't even have crushing blow and sweeping slash isn't on my bar and I have 0 trouble holding threat. Not sure who was talking about this class not being mobile. Saber throw left target leap push leap right target and smash. Pretty much handles threat on trash for the duration of the pull. If it doesn't, as I said before, USE THOSE TAUNTS!

[GalaxyStrong]

All I can say is use Soresu Form and once you dive in to the enemies activate THREATENING SCREAM. It's a Taunt that can get any enemies attention with in 10 meters ( I think the range is accurate & you wont be able to taunt untauntable enemies ). Hope that helps a little

 

Oh use ENRAGE for extra RAGE.:D

[Tauntive]

Based on various things I've read when I started a Jugg tank, that's a deliberate design choice - Jugg/Guardian's excel at single target threat gen (i.e. bosses). The general lack of mobility of the class prevents us from doing the usually MMOM tank "round up and taunt" of multiple trash mobs.

 

This explains it a lot better than I can

 

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/06/overall-tank-comparison.html

 

If you want an AOE tank, Assassin/Shadow is your best bet.

 

I think that's a common misconception from WOW. In WOW the warrior tank had a huge advantage with single target (boss). However, that is not the case with the warrior in SWTOR. I don't really struggle to hold agro with single target when I'm the only tank. Here's the thing though, tankassins get agro from damage and through their self heals. 200% threat increase from heals + damage = never having to taunt on single target. If a jugg goes head to head with a similarly geared tankassin, the tankassin wins the agro war, even on single target. They've just recently upped the agro on smash by 30%, which is an acknowledgement that threat is an issue with this class.

[Tauntive]

Think it's on you man. One thing you don't seem to consider is tanking in swtor is not like it was in WoW. All we really need to do on trash is pick up the big guys. Normals and slivers are largely not our problem as long as they don't hit crazy hard. Not that I don't normally grab them, but I don't really have to. DPS should burn them down and then get on the big guy. If you have an operative orbital striking constantly, just guard them. Problem solved. If you have two, or a merc/pt doing a lot of AOE damage, guard one and use your AOE taunt after the first hit of their AOE lands. Usually works better to guard the merc/pt and AOE taunt off the operative. Mercs/PTs wreck on a massive scale in PVE right now.

 

Use your taunts! Should be on cool down all day. I don't even have crushing blow and sweeping slash isn't on my bar and I have 0 trouble holding threat. Not sure who was talking about this class not being mobile. Saber throw left target leap push leap right target and smash. Pretty much handles threat on trash for the duration of the pull. If it doesn't, as I said before, USE THOSE TAUNTS!

 

To a point I'll agree, I'm sure there are improvements that could be implemented in my play style. I probably should have clarified more what the issue is. Like I stated I do okay holding threat, mostly by using tuants and if dps gives me 1/2 a second to build some agro I do fine. I usually run ops with a Tankassin. He tells me he NEVER uses tuant. If My Jugg and the Tankassin (which have about the same rated gear) attack the same target, the tankassin wins the agro war. At first I thought he was just a more skillful player, but then he went and made Power Tech Tank. His Power Tech tank (which also now has all 140+ gear) can't hold agro verses my Jugg on single target. He states he has to taunt all the time with the Power Tech. Hands down the Tankassin wins the threat war. Tankassins have the best threat levels for both single target(boss) and group pulls. This is because they not only do as much or more damage as the Jugg and power tech, but they also self heal. Heals + damage at 200% threat = no threat problems at all.

[Racter]

You know, I recently made a sin myself, and though it's still a lowbie I have absolutely no threat issues. I remember specifically struggling in a few places on my jugg that were so ridiculously easy on my sin that I almost want to quit playing it lol.