31 Point Kinetic Outdamages Hybrids

[parbs]

Indeed Astarica, thats why i think if people really want to hybrid they should retain harnessed shadows for the obvious benefits and drop the instant lift (pretty garbage in ranked wz due to the 2 second extra stun when broken early which guarantees full resolve). Get the pve shadow set bonus with 15% crit bonus to double strike and use 27 0 14. It makes awkward and buggy-lagged shadow striking basically unecessary.

[Boarg]

The thing is that a 31 point build should do more damage using ONLY instants and completely ignoring TK throw. ST is that much better than FiB.

 

You're kinda looking at it wrong. When you get deep enough into the analysis, Slow Time on its own doesn't even keep up with DS + Project combo for single target damage. If you don't use HS stacks and TKT, you stop using ST completely if you're trying to max dps. TKT is what makes Slow Time worth using for single target damage. When people tried to make max parses with 31 KC, they had two choices to get max damage: use nothing but DS, Project, and Saber Strike or they go full harness shadows management and keep the rotation as tight as possible. Typically, the simple method usually worked out better just because it's so easy to execute for a real player.

 

Hybrid KC does more damage using that simple method just because it has Adjudication and the other spec doesn't. Then you add two extra attacks which raise average dps slightly with Find Weakness procs and FiB. Those two attacks have both high enough damage per force and damage per gcd to improve overall dps in the rotation, Slow Time by itself does not because it does less damage than either of those attacks and costs 30 force instead of 25.

[parbs]

Yeah boarg, the basic fact is they cant ignore any of your attacks because they're all going to do alot of dps. The rotation from a 27 0 14 will have more damage done even after you take into account its slower proccing of tk throw - if a 31 x x build wishes to take advantage of particle accel it will slow down their ability to build up harnessed stacks as double strike is largely a waste of force for them. Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[Boarg]

31/01/10 does less damage because TKs do get interrupted/escaped against good players, thus doing less damage than expected while instant attacks obviously don't get avoided. But this ignores the fact that stopping TK itself is costly especially at the 1on1 level, as every ability you use to stop TK is almost certainly going to be something more valuable than TK itself. Force Camo is probably the best 'no risk' move that can stop TK (no CD, no resolve built) but given a choice, I'm sure everyone would rather a Marauder use up their Force Camo immeidately to counter a TK, as opposed to have them held onto it for the end of the fight where it can easily turn a losing fight around.

 

This is that mentally juking yourself out type thing again...

 

People stop the channels in 1v1 because it's a net advantage for them, even eating the cost of doing so. It's an entirely viable option for them to facetank TKT. If it were actually better, they would - and in some situations they do. Them electing to facetank only puts HS specs on par with non-HS specs; it doesn't make them suddenly amazingly good. If they chose not to facetank, you are then at a disadvantage compared to non-HS specs.

[Astarica]

Indeed Astarica, thats why i think if people really want to hybrid they should retain harnessed shadows for the obvious benefits and drop the instant lift (pretty garbage in ranked wz due to the 2 second extra stun when broken early which guarantees full resolve). Get the pve shadow set bonus with 15% crit bonus to double strike and use 27 0 14. It makes awkward and buggy-lagged shadow striking basically unecessary.

 

The 3 stack TK is really a 'rule through fear of force not force itself'' deal. Yes 3 stack TK hits hard if not stopped but that's not why it's powerful. Of course all the good players can stop/escape from a 3 stack TK. When I fight a Shadow it goes like this. If I see him cast TK I'll try to interrupt it since that's often the only spell you can interrupt anyway (hard casting Crushing Darkness or Force Lift just doesn't make much sense). Either it gets interrupted and then I know you don't have stacks to power TK, or I get the 'target is immune to interrupts' (which means my interrupt doesn't get used, so I lose nothing) message.

 

Now after I see that you have the skill build these stacks I will pretty much just assume all your TKs after this point potentially can have 3 stacks. It's certainly consistent with how other top players react to my Assassin. But no one said you can only cast TK with 3 stacks. We're going to assume whoever you're fighting isn't going to watch your stack counter like a hawk to know exactly how many stack you have at given time, so you can get the enemy to commit a major CD on even 1 stack of TK. Also note that even if the enemy somehow sees through that completely and just eats the 1 stack TK, it's still a very good DPF attack so it's not like you're somehow screwed if the enemy just toughs out your 1 stack TK.

 

You should expect and even want your TKs to get escaped/countered against a good players because by escaping from a 6 second CD this severely limits their options later on. It won't look good on the leaderboard but making a top player burn a CD early is going to help a lot toward winning the game overall. The only exception is if your TKs get interrupted by random AE CCs that weren't even directed at you, but that's just the nature of the 'big brawl' type fights and depending on what CC it is, it can be even more devastating to other specs and there's no point to generalize what happens if you're standing next to 5 people tossing out all kinds of AE CCs.

[parbs]

^^ yeah, it's really a game of cat and mouse in a way. this game is all about getting your opponent to commit their cooldowns early, or even prevent them from using them before they can do anything (burst).

[Astarica]

This is that mentally juking yourself out type thing again...

 

People stop the channels in 1v1 because it's a net advantage for them, even eating the cost of doing so. It's an entirely viable option for them to facetank TKT. If it were actually better, they would - and in some situations they do. Them electing to facetank only puts HS specs on par with non-HS specs; it doesn't make them suddenly amazingly good. If they chose not to facetank, you are then at a disadvantage compared to non-HS specs.

 

Err no people stop TK 1on1 because it is a bigger net disadvantage if it's not stopped.

 

Let's say I cast TK on you and it ticks twice, doing one GCD of damage. At this ponit you use a stun/KB/whatever to stop it, denying my next GCD of damage. However this costs you a GCD, so I'm ahead by whatever damage TK already did on you, which is likely one GCD, and you're also down one major CD because it atkes a significant CD to stop TK.

 

Now if the TK wasn't stopped, TK generally does more damage in one GCD than most attacks (easily verified in tooltips), so if instead of interrupting the enemy chooses to do one more GCD of damage, the next 2 ticks of TK is likely to do more damage so he'll be even further behind, especially if that TK was empowered by 3 stacks since there's also the heal at that point.

 

Now sure if you stopped it when it only ticks once then you'll probably be ahead overall but you can usually get 2 ticks off quite reliably in a 1on1 just because due to GCD arguments whoever you're casting on is probably going to be 0.75s away from his next GCD just due to sheer probability (if you're using GCD whenever possible, then at any given time you should be 0.75s away from GCD finishing), and you can tick twice during that time before he can possibly react.

 

Now if you've a telegraphed 3 stack TK and it gets stopped then you're going to be way behind but that's why you shouldn't telegraph 3 stack TKs, or if you do that, make sure it's protected by Resilience.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Astarica

[Boarg]

Whoever you're casting your TK on isn't escaping this unless he happened to have a target to leap safely to. That's the only 'safe' escape from TK.

 

That's just not true. Lets say you start to channel on someone who is at 8m range.

 

If they simply run either away or perpendicular to your target vector (or anything in between) then they will outrange the final two ticks even with the 50% snare on them. TKT snare is no better than all the other 50% snares in the game; it doesn't ensure people stay within 10m. And if they are just running random direction, thats roughly 180 degress out of 360 possible that puts them out of range. Against good players, them running is a given even if they aren't paying attention to you directly. That means you can't just start channeling someone at the edge of your range and expect all the ticks to land because half the time they will outrange you without even trying. You have to go get in in their face first to make it so they have too far to run. If you pick someone that's actively targeting you and running towards you, then you have a good player thats actually paying attention to you and has any number of things they may choose to do to stop your cast or reduce your damage.

 

Against random pugs that stand still, move dumb directions, have bad connections...it's not that big of a deal, but against top teams where it matters most, TKT channeling is an anchor on the spec, almost literally.

[parbs]

But to get back to the main point of the thread - its basically understood that the hybrid will deal more damage in the less-than optimal environment you're playing in (especially ranked). Note that when i say hybrid im referencing both 23 1 17 and 27 0 14, especially when you throw in the PVE 15% double strike crit bonus. Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[parbs]

Now if you've a telegraphed 3 stack TK and it gets stopped then you're going to be way behind but that's why you shouldn't telegraph 3 stack TKs, or if you do that, make sure it's protected by Resilience.

 

^^^ this is why i dont usually use a 3 stack tk throw unless im sure theyve already expended their cooldowns or i've stunned them and they haven't got a cc breaker on cooldown. I use harnessed shadows entirely for damage playing 27 0 14, and the shadow on my ranked team who played 31 0 10 as a maintank almost always rotates ST -> project -> tk throw rinse and repeat. he can kite all day

Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[Astarica]

That's just not true. Lets say you start to channel on someone who is at 8m range.

 

If they simply run either away or perpendicular to your target vector (or anything in between) then they will outrange the final two ticks even with the 50% snare on them. TKT snare is no better than all the other 50% snares in the game; it doesn't ensure people stay within 10m. And if they are just running random direction, thats roughly 180 degress out of 360 possible that puts them out of range. Against good players, them running is a given even if they aren't paying attention to you directly. That means you can't just start channeling someone at the edge of your range and expect all the ticks to land because half the time they will outrange you without even trying. You have to go get in in their face first to make it so they have too far to run. If you pick someone that's actively targeting you and running towards you, then you have a good player thats actually paying attention to you and has any number of things they may choose to do to stop your cast or reduce your damage.

 

Against random pugs that stand still, move dumb directions, have bad connections...it's not that big of a deal, but against top teams where it matters most, TKT channeling is an anchor on the spec, almost literally.

 

You seem to be under the assumption people only cast TK when they have 3 stacks which is pretty much a telegraphed move similar to say the enrage -> charge -> smash deal that is eaisly stopped once you see it coming.

 

The base running speed is 6m/s. TK stretches out to somewhere around 15m once it's channeled from my observation. At 3m/s it takes 2 seconds to escape it so even if you turn around immediately the moment it's on you, so it's likely to have ticked 3 ticks before you get out. You also seem to assume that it's somehow very costly for me to cast a TK. It's not. At 31/0/10 you can have a TK coming your way every 6 seconds for a pretty long period of time. If I see you run away on a move I can cast every 6 second for at least 5 consecutive cycles, I'm going to feel pretty good since you're running away from a move I cast while waiting for Force to regen.

 

I think all your argument is against the telegraph 3 stack guy who only casts TK when it's 3 stacks. It is very easy to deal with TK when you know it's only cast in certain circumstances, and by the time you hit 3 stacks you've commited enough resources into building it that having one escaped does hurt you. But there's no rule that says TK can only be cast with 3 stacks. Escaping from a 1 stack TK is going to be put you disastrously behind by running away.

[Xinika]

... and drop the instant lift (pretty garbage in ranked wz due to the 2 second extra stun when broken early which guarantees full resolve)

 

This is absolutely false. It's just like polymorph in WoW. It's no good unless you utilize it properly and when done that way, it's exceptionally amazing.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Xinika

[parbs]

the advantages aren't that great, id rather freecast it and not guarantee the full resolve bar. Situations where its useful? the best ranked team on my server are very quick to cleanse / pull people with the force lift. In terms of protecting a node i'd much prefer to sap them and delay via stealth. On offense it can be quite handy for attacking a node but you're better off being balance if you want to be mostly offensive and provide this (attacking a node protected by 2 people mind you, in which case you won't win either way unless theyre nubcakes). Remember, you can face any direction you wish after you've begun casting lift Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[Boarg]

Err no people stop TK 1on1 because it is a bigger net disadvantage if it's not stopped.

 

At first it seems like you're trying to disagree with me, but if I carefully pick through the double negatives and such it looks like you actually said the same thing I just did. I'm confused...lol.

 

Let's say I cast TK on you and it ticks twice, doing one GCD of damage. At this ponit you use a stun/KB/whatever to stop it, denying my next GCD of damage. However this costs you a GCD, so I'm ahead by whatever damage TK already did on you, which is likely one GCD, and you're also down one major CD because it atkes a significant CD to stop TK.

 

Now if the TK wasn't stopped, TK generally does more damage in one GCD than most attacks (easily verified in tooltips), so if instead of interrupting the enemy chooses to do one more GCD of damage, the next 2 ticks of TK is likely to do more damage so he'll be even further behind, especially if that TK was empowered by 3 stacks since there's also the heal at that point.

 

Now sure if you stopped it when it only ticks once then you'll probably be ahead overall but you can usually get 2 ticks off quite reliably in a 1on1 just because due to GCD arguments whoever you're casting on is probably going to be 0.75s away from his next GCD just due to sheer probability (if you're using GCD whenever possible, then at any given time you should be 0.75s away from GCD finishing), and you can tick twice during that time before he can possibly react.

 

Now if you've a telegraphed 3 stack TK and it gets stopped then you're going to be way behind but that's why you shouldn't telegraph 3 stack TKs, or if you do that, make sure it's protected by Resilience.

 

The thing is, people are going to use all their tools for disrupts and everything against you regardless of your spec and TKT. You're not costing them anything they weren't already going to spend.

 

The choice is just up to them whether it's more beneficial to utilize those tools at whatever they would normally consider an optimal time or if using them in reaction to TKT is even more opportune. If they are a good/great player, they are going to make good decisions and you channeling TKT in their face just gives them extra opportunity to beat you that they don't have available against most other specs. Again, if they do nothing at all and just facetank every single TKT you're pretty much performing just on par with 23/1/17 in most cases.

 

If you want to play games with trying to bait them into fake opportunities to beat you worse...that's okay. It's a fun game to play, and it's a little like how James Harden holds the ball out when he drives the lane to bait defenders into taking a swipe and putting him on the line. Although, in this case I think the opportunity cost of doing so compared to more ideal play and usage of stacks is too high to normally come out as a net positive in the end even if you succeed in baiting.

[Skolops]

I have to say, as much as I prefer the 31 point spec, I would agree that TK Throw isn't as strong as it's being made out to be by Astarica. The thing is, if I have a good healer on my team, I don't even worry about getting hit with Lightning/Rocks from a Shadow or Assassin because, as much damage as it is, its coming in at a pace that is easily healable. It's really only an issue in 1 on 1s where you're not getting that healing support.

[parbs]

it's always an issue if its a 2-3 stack tk throw with potency, timed on the right squishy without guard or taunts up - It's just that the damage done in between by a hybrid will always be superior Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[Boarg]

This is absolutely false. It's just like polymorph in WoW. It's no good unless you utilize it properly and when done that way, it's exceptionally amazing.

 

the advantages aren't that great, id rather freecast it and not guarantee the full resolve bar. Situations where its useful? the best ranked team on my server are very quick to cleanse / pull people with the force lift. In terms of protecting a node i'd much prefer to sap them and delay via stealth. On offense it can be quite handy for attacking a node but you're better off being balance if you want to be mostly offensive and provide this (attacking a node protected by 2 people mind you, in which case you won't win either way unless theyre nubcakes).

 

Instant Lift + stun ender is really, really good in top end rateds. You just have to use it in the right places and not do dumb things with it like slapping it on a huttball carrier that's about to go through fire traps. In this setting your teammates are also good/smart enough to not stupidly break your CC.

 

And of course Lift is good enough to freecast in some situations, but it's not "better" that way. In a few situations if you use it badly, yeah, you could argue that the penalty of misuse is slightly higher. The reality is it's much more usable as an instant and usually the stun is a good thing instead of bad. In high end rateds, getting those freecasts off can be very difficult and in clutch situations is not reliable at all. It's really wasteful when some marauder interrupts your attempt or someone range interrupts your capper in the 2s it took to complete the cast bar.

[Skolops]

the advantages aren't that great, id rather freecast it and not guarantee the full resolve bar. Situations where its useful? the best ranked team on my server are very quick to cleanse / pull people with the force lift. In terms of protecting a node i'd much prefer to sap them and delay via stealth. On offense it can be quite handy for attacking a node but you're better off being balance if you want to be mostly offensive and provide this (attacking a node protected by 2 people mind you, in which case you won't win either way unless theyre nubcakes). Remember, you can face any direction you wish after you've begun casting lift

 

Situation just the other day: I entered into a Civil War late, running a hybrid. It was around 300 - 290 without the middle capped - one of those games. They'd been fighting over mid for some time. I got into the fight, and, being in Combat Stance, survived through some decent beatings that I doubt I could have in balance. I also guarded the healer and repeatedly used my Force Pull and out of stealth spinning kick to keep the healer and anyone else drawing a lot of attention up. Finally, things started to clear out, so someone started capping.

 

Now just as the last guy dropped, out of the spawn were coming two players, both ranged (one of them may have been a Jugg but the capper was not LOS from his leap). I force sprinted down there, met them JUST at the edge of their range and I insta-lifted the first closest, tabbed and stunned the second. We cap, we win.

 

Never would have happened in Kinetic (as much as I like it) or Balance.

[parbs]

Yeah i understand, conversely there have been moments where i've capped a point so fast from opening on the guy guarding it with project --> DS DS --> procced project -> stun -> tk throw 2 stack + resilience and using the next charge of potency on force in balance = dead faster than pretty much almost a balance shadow can (27 0 14). I agree that insta lift is almost ridiculously OP in random pugs.. im really talking about ranked involving the best two teams on your server. Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[parbs]

The mileage i've gotten from insta lift as a tank shadow has been less than i have from in balance within ranked, believe me i also enjoy playing 23 1 17, i just really dislike being almost entirely melee dependent against the top teams (remember i'm always playing offtank and node guarding - zzzz - or playing balance dps where im always in the thick of the action). It's mostly a personal preference mind you, my team always has enough CC to go around, especially with the stupidly OP cybertech stun nades we farm

 

My basic argument is that if you're maintanking in the 'pack' you can bring alot more to the team as a 31 x x. If you're offtank and mostly guarding points / nodes the 23 1 17 isn't that great, and huttball is only 1 out of 4 maps.

Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[Xinika]

im really talking about ranked involving the best two teams on your server.

Yeah, and it's even better in high-end ranked due to coordination.

 

My basic argument is that if you're maintanking in the 'pack' you can bring alot more to the team as a 31 x x. If you're offtank and mostly guarding points / nodes the 23 1 17 isn't that great, and huttball is only 1 out of 4 maps.

 

23/1/17 just about outperforms every other spec in majority situations. It's pretty much better than every other spec (with the exception of the node-guarding KC) in any warzone.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Xinika

[parbs]

I disagree. as a maintank having a constant snare on the opposition + 5% damage debuff in the main fight makes a 31 x x build better than any 'instant force lift' shadow. It can kite better, doesn't have to be in melee range to deal good damage (OR abandon their healer and run out of the 15m guard range.. stupid tunnel vision hybrid shadows are rampant on my server). So where does that leave the hybrid? on nodes. Thats why i roll 27 0 14. Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[Boarg]

You seem to be under the assumption people only cast TK when they have 3 stacks which is pretty much a telegraphed move similar to say the enrage -> charge -> smash deal that is eaisly stopped once you see it coming.

 

The base running speed is 6m/s. TK stretches out to somewhere around 15m once it's channeled from my observation. At 3m/s it takes 2 seconds to escape it so even if you turn around immediately the moment it's on you, so it's likely to have ticked 3 ticks before you get out. You also seem to assume that it's somehow very costly for me to cast a TK. It's not. At 31/0/10 you can have a TK coming your way every 6 seconds for a pretty long period of time. If I see you run away on a move I can cast every 6 second for at least 5 consecutive cycles, I'm going to feel pretty good since you're running away from a move I cast while waiting for Force to regen.

 

I think all your argument is against the telegraph 3 stack guy who only casts TK when it's 3 stacks. It is very easy to deal with TK when you know it's only cast in certain circumstances, and by the time you hit 3 stacks you've commited enough resources into building it that having one escaped does hurt you. But there's no rule that says TK can only be cast with 3 stacks. Escaping from a 1 stack TK is going to be put you disastrously behind by running away.

 

It has nothing to do with how many stacks you have...it's just about being able to outrange a channel. Although if you don't use it at 3 stacks you are generally just hurting yourself because you'd be better off just using DS + Project.

 

The ability doesn't actually stretch beyond 10m once started. It just appears to because of server-client issues and the mechanics of the ability. There's a little bit of tolerance there just to avoid buggy behavior, but it's not much. When you involve players who have really good connections on both ends, that stretching thing happens less and less and it just breaks channel. Even moving at 3m/s, it just takes 1s of running to outrange if they are out at the edge when they start and it's just a matter of how fast the server can sync and register it to break channel.

 

Against a bad, they might be standing still when you start channel - in which case there's so much time before their client displays to them that they are getting channeled and then to have their response to outrange you sync up - at least half the ticks already happen regardless of what they do.

 

Against a good who is already running when you start channel, the server assumes continued movement from the start even without resync and it can register a channel break pretty quickly.

 

That sort of code is part of why stuns and roots and things like that are so powerful. Forcing someone to hold still even for a little bit starts making the net code work against them.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Boarg

[parbs]

And shinarika dont forget that if you're in the mainfight as a hybrid shadow, are you just a second tank trying to be a dps? balance is what you do for that which has the insta lift anyway. The best teams on my server all run with their offtank guarding nodes the majority of the time, which is also my preferred strategy. You know what really makes balance strong though? sever force. With this dodgy *** resolve system it can be abused to hell and back especially in huttball. Edited August 2, 2012 by parbs

[Astarica]

it's always an issue if its a 2-3 stack tk throw with potency, timed on the right squishy without guard or taunts up - It's just that the damage done in between by a hybrid will always be superior

 

The tooltip damage of a 3 stack TK is straight up more than twice of any other reasonable attack you might have access to on someone with >30% health. If a 3 stack TK didn't hurt, no other attack from the same character would hurt either because they all do less (often considerably less) tooltip damage.

 

TK don't hit as hard as it appear to be because people now have a lot of experience at escaping it but you can use this against them since escaping from TK is costly in terms of CD management.