4 combat class's / 4 social class's

[Shingara]

It's rather out of synch with the rest of the stories in Star Wars. Anyone who is trained as a covert operative is trained in some form of self defense and firearms, so the "noncombatant" thing goes out the window. If you are doing covert operations, you're also no longer a "nuetral" party. And, do you really make 3 acts based on that? Somewhere along the lines they'll figure out who you are...

 

Yes and that is why there companions are there bodyguards. None combatant and pacifists are not the same thing. Example is they would work like c2n2, he is none combatant but he can punch people in the face.

[Darth_Halford]

Yes and that is why there companions are there bodyguards. None combatant and pacifists are not the same thing. Example is they would work like c2n2, he is none combatant but he can punch people in the face.

 

And what about before you even get a companion? You don't get your first companion until you leave the starting planet you don't get c2n2 until you begin Act 1.

 

Why would they choose you as a covert op when your companions are the ones that are actually skilled for the job?

[Shingara]

You're the king of not reading what is actually being written. You've made a carreer here of trying to rewrite what I've said.

 

The discussion was that the game was not canon. What you mentioned had nothing to do that conversation.

 

Right lets follow this.

 

and until lucas arts says otherwise,the combat classes will not be dancing,music playing,food chef weirdos that can also use the force in such a way as to alter the whole galaxy

RIght....Because Lucasarts has always put dancers and entertainers in their story-canon Star Wars games. They always put characters that don't matter and don't fit in the with franchise, right at the very front of franchise stories....

they did in swg and they also didnt say anything about swg not being canon entirely

Leland Chee, the guy in charge of the The Holocron and master of all that is canon and continuity, was once asked if anything the player did was considered canon or not, his response was no.

 

Non-continuity since they exist only in a single galaxy/server.

 

Where-as since each of the class stories remain the same from server to server, they are considered to be canon.

You want to know why they got rid of holocrons, its the same reason why they removed permadeath, not enough people were unlocking them, they made it a grind and what did that result in, everyone being a jedi. they didnt get rid of holocrons because of lore., they got rid of them chasing profit.

 

When they made jedi a grind they flooded the game with jedis, they became worthless and all other classes disapeared bar some tkm/fencers, they threw the nge in to try and balance it back out but by that time it had failed as anything but a roleplayers world and the only real mmo still to have some sandbox stuff as wow had by that time cornered the market and presseded to set the mmo genre for close to the next decade.

 

So it wasnt that swg pre cu was bad, it was that smedly and soe saw the $$$$ blizzard were making and broke the cardinal rule, they changed the core of the game, from 32 classes to 8 i think it was in the end.

 

PS its due to holocrons i actually know what the blue leaf temple is, and if it hadnt been for that holocron which was pure chance i would never have found the most powerful story within star wars lore. eXar makes vader look like a paper boy.

 

And my point is that in SWG the vehicle for cannon were the holocrons, they were used for unlocking jedi. the jedi were the reason for the game changes and it was nothing todo with the none combat classes, They actualy broke cannon in swg due to this which resulted in the nge which was my point and in context with the conversation.

 

Lucas have only made an ip of its change once due to cannon. and that wasnt because of none combat classes, that was due to hundreds of jedi running about at a time there were meant to be next to none. Lucas is a fan of entertainers in canon and they are deep seated within it.

[Shingara]

And what about before you even get a companion? You don't get your first companion until you leave the starting planet you don't get c2n2 until you begin Act 1.

 

Why would they choose you as a covert op when your companions are the ones that are actually skilled for the job?

 

I never said where they start or if they should have a full 50 levels, whos to say that they do start at lvl 1 and goto 50 but they get there companions right away. And being the muscles dont always make you the best, it just means you can crush skulls on command. Also who to say they should have the acts like we have now. why not just have them unlocked when you have a char that unlocks legacy upon that server.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

[Darth_Halford]

Right lets follow this.

And my point is that in SWG the vehicle for cannon were the holocrons, they were used for unlocking jedi. the jedi were the reason for the game changes and it was nothing todo with the none combat classes, They actualy broke cannon in swg due to this which resulted in the nge which was my point and in context with the conversation.

 

Lucas have only made an ip of its change once due to cannon. and that wasnt because of none combat classes, that was due to hundreds of jedi running about at a time there were meant to be next to none. Lucas is a fan of entertainers in canon and they are deep seated within it.

This still has nothing to do with the actual discussion. SWG could have never been changed and it still would not have been considered canon.

If entertainers are so deep in the canon, than why is it the most prominent game that has them isn't (and never was) canon?

[Shingara]

This still has nothing to do with the actual discussion. SWG could have never been changed and it still would not have been considered canon.

If entertainers are so deep in the canon, than why is it the most prominent game that has them isn't (and never was) canon?

 

It isnt classed as cannon because soe broke cannon by flooding the game with jedi in a timeline when jedi were rarer then hens teeth, thats why lucas set out that permadeath should be in at the start. but tell me, is max rebo cannon, is oola ?

 

So you see it does as dancers and musicians are in cannon, max rebo was also in swg. and obviously lucas aproved swg at launch and aproved of the none combatant classes or they would not have seen the light of day in swg otherwise.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

[Darth_Halford]

I never said where they start or if they should have a full 50 levels, whos to say that they do start at lvl 1 and goto 50 but they get there companions right away. And being the muscles dont always make you the best, it just means you can crush skulls on command. Also who to say they should have the acts like we have now. why not just have them unlocked when you have a char that unlocks legacy upon that server.

 

Because all good products are based on consistency, and video games are no different. Think back to Galaxies, KOTOR, Elder Scrolls, or any other game that you might have played that you enjoyed. At no point does it shift from one thing to another.

 

Galaxies didn't have a seperate leveling system for entertainers. D&D doesn't give you an XP cut just because you're different. No matter what class you choose in Skyrim, all of the functions are the same.

 

The game that a player sees and plays when they first play the game, is what they expect the rest of the game to be. Players already have an expectation of 50 levels of play and 3 acts, so any new class that doesn't do those similar things is not going to be recieved well. Once you get into it and realize that the class also doesn't play like the rest, that's going to be an even bigger problem.

[Darth_Halford]

It isnt classed as cannon because soe broke cannon by flooding the game with jedi in a timeline when jedi were rarer then hens teeth, thats why lucas set out that permadeath should be in at the start. but tell me, is max rebo cannon, is oola ?

 

So you see it does as dancers and musicians are in cannon, max rebo was also in swg. and obviously lucas aproved swg at launch and aproved of the none combatant classes or they would not have seen the light of day in swg otherwise.

 

If that's why the game isn't canon than why did he say something completly different?

 

Non-continuity since they exist only in a single galaxy/server.

 

Even if Jedi were still appropriatly rare, the game still wouldn't be canon.

[Shingara]

Because all good products are based on consistency, and video games are no different. Think back to Galaxies, KOTOR, Elder Scrolls, or any other game that you might have played that you enjoyed. At no point does it shift from one thing to another.

 

Galaxies didn't have a seperate leveling system for entertainers. D&D doesn't give you an XP cut just because you're different. No matter what class you choose in Skyrim, all of the functions are the same.

 

The game that a player sees and plays when they first play the game, is what they expect the rest of the game to be. Players already have an expectation of 50 levels of play and 3 acts, so any new class that doesn't do those similar things is not going to be recieved well. Once you get into it and realize that the class also doesn't play like the rest, that's going to be an even bigger problem.

 

Actualy galaxies did have seperate way of leveling for entertainers, they didnt kill things, they performed. As for how many levels or how many acts it could follow the exact same rules as the combatants, but instead of go there and kill it could be go there and work out a puzzle. Personally i dont give a jiggly pop what any other game has done or how they did it, im more into wondering what boundrys this game can push.

 

And if it states none combat class and then you make it and think hmm this char wont let me shoot a gun or wield a saber then you need to be educated in what the word 'none' means. Obviously people are going to understand what this class is going todo and the limitations of it. That will be a draw for alot of people, it will also be a good alternative to people with lvl 50 mains who just raid.

 

It will just be like everything else in the game, some people only do operations, some only craft whilst others only pvp, when space comes and if its all we think it will be then at that point there will be those that only play space. Even now there are some people who only stand on tables and dance and talk to mates. it takes all sorts.

 

MMO's are built up of building blocks in this way, its the sum of the parts that make the game and community, having people who only do parts of the game doesnt divide the community.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

[Shingara]

If that's why the game isn't canon than why did he say something completly different?

 

Non-continuity since they exist only in a single galaxy/server.

 

Even if Jedi were still appropriatly rare, the game still wouldn't be canon.

 

What does the time scheme have todo with cannon exactly. And they wernt just rare in canon, there was luke and there was vader and the emperor, thats it. In swg they were bouncing off the walls, ceilings and out of wheelie bins. And the game was cannon, what the players did within it wasnt and what soe tried todo to it wasnt.

 

EDIT, ow i see, your confussing cannon, time scheme and if anything a player does in a game adds to cannon when bap was referencing entertainers being part of cannon.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shingara

[Baphomet_x]

What does the time scheme have todo with cannon exactly. And they wernt just rare in canon, there was luke and there was vader and the emperor, thats it. In swg they were bouncing off the walls, ceilings and out of wheelie bins. And the game was cannon, what the players did within it wasnt and what soe tried todo to it wasnt.

 

EDIT, ow i see, your confussing cannon, time scheme and if anything a player does in a game adds to cannon when bap was referencing entertainers being part of cannon.

 

yep..case in point,i cannot count how many twilek dancers ive seen all over the place....halford would have to be blind to say twilek dancers arent canon

[DarthDeimos]

So it wasnt that swg pre cu was bad, it was that smedly and soe saw the $$$$ blizzard were making and broke the cardinal rule, they changed the core of the game, from 32 classes to 8 i think it was in the end.

 

Stop right there. You just made our point. You're saying that you want LucasArts/Bioware to see the amount of money they made from SWG and break the 'cardinal rule' and change the core of THIS particular game (TOR) to incorporate the gameplay style (of SWG) , which, is completely different than the current one (TOR). I skimmed over pages 12 to 14 and I see you talking about the same thing shingara. You just keep talking about your same arguments. I strongly believe that what you're saying in the quote listed above is what caused SWG to fail. And now, you're proposing that LucasArts makes the same mistake again.

[DarthDeimos]

yep..case in point,i cannot count how many twilek dancers ive seen all over the place....halford would have to be blind to say twilek dancers arent canon

Indeed he would be blind, However, Just because there's a janitor in the Canon or a waiter, doesn't mean that SWTOR should have a class for it.

[Baphomet_x]

Stop right there. You just made our point. You're saying that you want LucasArts/Bioware to see the amount of money they made from SWG and break the 'cardinal rule' and change the core of THIS particular game (TOR) to incorporate the gameplay style (of SWG) , which, is completely different than the current one (TOR). I skimmed over pages 12 to 14 and I see you talking about the same thing shingara. You just keep talking about your same arguments. I strongly believe that what you're saying in the quote listed above is what caused SWG to fail. And now, you're proposing that LucasArts makes the same mistake again.

 

do you atleast like my idea about adding certain classes with a more subtle and lively storyline,all "hitman" game series-esque?

 

personally i loved that game,and i dont think it`d be too far fetched to swing it lore wise....

 

it could solve the rendundancy problem of "kill x gather y talk to z"....have firepower oriented stuff like we do now for the more lively types,and have seperate types of killers for those who are less lively (like me,veteran no lifer),whose storyline involves alot more intrigue,potency,and darkness

 

for example,i just finished playing another great game under ea`s helm,deadspace 2....and i just bought dead space 2: sever

 

both of those two are fairly brutal in there presentation,but when i play those games i really feel the emotion...same with the hitman series

 

now adding the assassin types that differ by number of casualtys,preciseness,collateral damage...and the skills they use to acheive there goals would be great

 

it would make a section for those of us that enjoy a well worked story like we enjoy a finely mixed hyper potent caffeine drink...and give a fairly reasonable excuse to add dancing,cooking,and so on into the game

 

id think one step though would be to bar these classes from warzones or flashpoints or other sorts of things of that nature...it`d keep the work load down,and also a class like i detailed some time ago in this thread wouldnt be proper for a brute force team effort like most of the group cooperative missions we got

 

i think its a fairly decent bridge between the two worlds

 

though granted it would need more restrictions...some technical problems to solve...and of course workload balance

Edited July 19, 2012 by Baphomet_x

[Warrgames]

So let me get this straight you want a social character that doesn’t fight?

Said character will have companions that fight for him instead?

Would that mean that your “social character” is a combat character? The “social character” just using a companion to fight for him instead of fighting himself.

[DarthDeimos]

do you atleast like my idea about adding certain classes with a more subtle and lively storyline,all "hitman" game series-esque?

 

personally i loved that game,and i dont think it`d be too far fetched to swing it lore wise....

 

it could solve the rendundancy problem of "kill x gather y talk to z"....have firepower oriented stuff like we do now for the more lively types,and have seperate types of killers for those who are less lively (like me,veteran no lifer),whose storyline involves alot more intrigue,potency,and darkness

 

for example,i just finished playing another great game under ea`s helm,deadspace 2....and i just bought dead space 2: sever

 

both of those two are fairly brutal in there presentation,but when i play those games i really feel the emotion...same with the hitman series

 

now adding the assassin types that differ by number of casualtys,preciseness,collateral damage...and the skills they use to acheive there goals would be great

 

it would make a section for those of us that enjoy a well worked story like we enjoy a finely mixed hyper potent caffeine drink...and give a fairly reasonable excuse to add dancing,cooking,and so on into the game

 

id think one step though would be to bar these classes from warzones or flashpoints or other sorts of things of that nature...it`d keep the work load down,and also a class like i detailed some time ago in this thread wouldnt be proper for a brute force team effort like most of the group cooperative missions we got

 

i think its a fairly decent bridge between the two worlds

 

though granted it would need more restrictions...some technical problems to solve...and of course workload balance

Im not really understanding what you're trying to say here.

[Baphomet_x]

So let me get this straight you want a social character that doesn’t fight?

Said character will have companions that fight for him instead?

Would that mean that your “social character” is a combat character? The “social character” just using a companion to fight for him instead of fighting himself.

 

not entirely...if youll look up the hitman game series on wikipedia youll see what i mean..it has a complex system of reward and risk to reward those who complete the mission with critical thinking,problem solving...stealth,and so on(by stealth i mean more of a traditional type of stealth)...and to punish those who run around randomly killing everything in there path

 

my idea for the companion is basically a doorstop sort of thing..like on the hitman game where if you made a tiny mistake,and alerted just one guy...you could put afew rounds into him,hide the body.run ,and pray it worked,though unless you messed around with the settings,the ammunition was very sparce

 

assassinate via the traditional methods..poisoned food/drink (cook has to have amazing skills to keep the poisoned food from tasting like rock salt lvl of bitterness)...dancer(has to be fairly good at what she does to keep those she targets from getting alerted to her true intentions)...slicer?(this would be the less rigid of the types i think,able to hack into the systems for breif periods and make the enemy machines turn against there owners..wit the breifness to keep obviousness to a low)....an archeologist could use there knowledge to turn artifacts into living weapons (think the imperial mission where the rakata artifact goes nuts and starts infecting everyone,turning them into android like things)...with the biohazard like nature keeping the site condemned,with people too afraid to investigate

 

what im trying to do is to bridge the two worlds together in a way that catches everyone`s interest....i could most certainly fully flesh out the ideas for these classes on my own...but that would take a large amount of time...and i doubt most people on the forum could stomach a 5 page long post about one class idea

 

how do you put it "i grow weary of this forum battle"

 

tis why in that paragraph i included two things for the less stringent but still onboard...and two things for the more serious...i admit these ideas would fail pretty hard if it was the sole focus of a game

 

its like a symbiotic bacteria,it cant live without a host,but brings benefit to it`s host at the same time

Edited July 19, 2012 by Baphomet_x

[Warrgames]

I guess I’m going to have to be a little more clear; those question where for Shingara. Shingara keeps referring to companion as a bodyguard and protector when they are out getting mats and what not.

So let me get this straight you want a social character that doesn’t fight?

Said character will have companions that fight for him instead?

Would that mean that your “social character” is a combat character? The “social character” just using a companion to fight for him instead of fighting himself.

[Shingara]

Stop right there. You just made our point. You're saying that you want LucasArts/Bioware to see the amount of money they made from SWG and break the 'cardinal rule' and change the core of THIS particular game (TOR) to incorporate the gameplay style (of SWG) , which, is completely different than the current one (TOR). I skimmed over pages 12 to 14 and I see you talking about the same thing shingara. You just keep talking about your same arguments. I strongly believe that what you're saying in the quote listed above is what caused SWG to fail. And now, you're proposing that LucasArts makes the same mistake again.

 

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried. The original swg game and concept that lucas arts signed off on and the game people bought at launch was a sandbox/themepark game. 32/33 classes. A robust world where the players lived in the universe and could do anything within the lore aslong as it was in the limitations of the time period. Vibrant player communitys built around player created shops, outposts, towns and citys run and administrated by players and the most dynamic and robust crafting system ever seen within an mmo. Not to mention truly gigantic planets and 3 faction gameplay, 4/5 if you count covert spy.

 

The classes went from bounty hunters and tera kasi masters to dancers and musicians, all the way to polititions and architects. The hidden class eg the 33rd were jedi, they were set as having permadeath, they were a new char added to your account and had a class specifically created to keep there numbers down so they remained rare and a system in the game so if you were seen to be activly playing in the open that the longer you did it and the more you were seen that the higher you would go on the bounty board and the more bounty hunters that could get your mission and permantly kill you.

 

WoW came out and they tried to give everyone jedis by changing it from a hidden quest into a grind on your main char, this resulted in all classes being ground away and basically everyone became a jedi. That broke the lore and the original statement of the game, They were now in breach of game design authorised by lucas and had to make a drastic change. The closest thing they could think of was the wow design, set classes and no freedom of choice within them. Thats why the NGE was brought in that changed it from 32/33 classes to the templates which numbered about 8 in total but they couldnt take jedis out as they had let the genie out of the bottle as you could say and doing that would have resulted in a total collapse of the game.

 

They drastically changed the social class just before and with the CU, that combined with the changes to jedi like the removal of permadeath and later the ability to create jedis from the start, cu and nge made people hate soe for what they had done to the game, there are people still today who will not purchase a sony product due to those choices made.

 

Adding in a social class would not do anything like what soe did to swg, if this were tera kasi masters being proposed it would be a different matter in your eyes because it would be a combatant class, the only difference is it would be alot more work to impliment then a social class like this. The classes would have to be balanced with and around the new combatant classes, the game would see a flood of tkms just the same way as how deathknights impacted upon wow and how they are now drastically changing the core of wow with the introduction of monks. It would not break the lore, the timeline nor any features that lucas hasnt already signed off on that is allowed within the star wars universe of games.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Shingara

[Shingara]

I guess I’m going to have to be a little more clear; those question where for Shingara. Shingara keeps referring to companion as a bodyguard and protector when they are out getting mats and what not.

So let me get this straight you want a social character that doesn’t fight?

Said character will have companions that fight for him instead?

Would that mean that your “social character” is a combat character? The “social character” just using a companion to fight for him instead of fighting himself.

 

Thank you for the excelent question. The social class will be a none combatant as in they dont take a prime role in the ground pve or pvp. They wont be a pacifist, they will still be able to punch and jab and should probably have a basic form of cc, That combined with the valor legacy unlocks they would be able to withstand attacks but there companion is there main guard against death in the outside enviroments when not in safe zones and sanctuarys and they would be unable to use any form of weapons or stats gained from equiping weapons. They could possible have an in combat heal to companions too but nothing uber strong.

 

The social classes would be a combat class when it comes to space but not on the ground, There skills will be aimed at entertaining and roleplaying extras just like a tanks skills are aimed defence and mitigations, healers to survival and picking fights.

 

This is where use of companion and the type of companions they get is the bigger matter especialy on how bioware would decide how and when you get your 1st companion, with there primery stat being presence that means that the companions will be much stronger on them whilst at the same time giving extra health etc to the char itself and the stat increasing the presence buff they can supply or how fast they supply that and the regeneration rate of people they are entertainings rested xp.

 

Edit, To the gathering side, sorry i missed that bit, they would be more primed to taking the social armour crafting and investigation, diplomacy or underworld trading but with the use as an alt they could do anything really and use the main to supply anything they need on there social class.

 

There companions could also be more tailored to guards more then the combats who have a balance of dps healer and tanks, This could incorperate the usage of npc races within lore that are mainly seen as guards being used for them, this would inturn allow for easy voice over as they might get away with them not speaking basic, like a wookie http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookiee, Ualaq http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ualaq, Nikto http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nikto, Abyssin http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Abyssin for use in the world and an Ortolan http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ortolan for use in the social aspect.

 

As you can see the mix of races allow for innate skills upon those tanks for ranged and melle mix, self healing plus a unique feel for the social class. But those are just a 5 min look through all races in this timeline but it could be more closely looked into.

 

Also this allows for a legcay type unlock to add one of these races to another char, a combat class from the mix of tank companions there thorugh the use of the social class and may also allow for female versions of these races ingame which we do not currently have and allow extra romance options for all the classes.

 

The actual possibiltys gained from this class and what it could bring is unlimted really when you think of how they could be interweaven with the legacy system and the gameplay type they actualy take compared to a combat only class.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Shingara

[Baphomet_x]

Thank you for the excelent question. The social class will be a none combatant as in the dont take a prime role in the ground pve or pvp. They wont be a pacifist, they will still be able to punch and jab and should probably have a basic form of cc, That combined with the valor legacy unlocks they would be able to withstand attacks but there companion is there main guard against death in the outside enviroments when not in safe zones and sanctuarys.

 

The social classes would be a combat class when it comes to space but not on the ground, There skills will be aimed at entertaining just like a tanks skills are aimed defence and mitigations, healers to survival and picking fights.

 

This is where use of companion and the type of companions they get is the bigger matter, with there primery stat being presence that means that the companions will be much stronger on them whilst at the same time giving extra health etc to the char itself and the stat increasing the presence buff they can supply or how fast they supply that and the regeneration rate of people they are entertainings rested xp.

 

"shaken,not stirred" - james bond

 

"we fear no army of the earth great pharoah,but can we fight plagues with swords?" - egyptian general in the ten commandments

 

"to stand still is to know death" - otogi

 

'join us!make us whole!!!!(in a sort of scream like tempo)"- crazy nicole in dead space 2

 

"yours is the last body we need to complete the marker!" - also crazy nicole in dead space 2

 

"step 4,acceptance" - nice nicole,dead space 2

 

"you dont have a say in this,now move,im going to crash this thing through the roof" - ellie in dead space 2

 

"to understand the greater mystery,one must take in all its aspects" - chancellor palpatine

 

"as ariadne told thesius before he entered the minotaur`s lair,always foward,never left or right" - bob page at the ending of deux ex human revolution,sarif version

 

and in conclusion to the naysayers

 

Have you ever stood and stared at it, marveled at its beauty, its genius? Billions of people just living out their lives, oblivious. Did you know that the first MMORPG was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered, where everyone would be happy? It was a disaster. No one would accept the program, entire regions were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world, but I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the MMORPGs were redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization. I say your civilization, because as soon as we started thinking for you it really became our civilization, which is of course what this is all about. Evolution, life having people, evolution. Like the dinosaur. Look out that window. You've had your time. The future is our world, life having people. The future is our time.

[CommunitySupport]

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