Vanguard tatics tree need a buff

[huehuebrbr]

First of all, i'm talking about the Vanguard Tatics tree and PVP numbers, it's just fine on PVE. You guys did a nice job buffing the tree last time but in comparison with other professions (and even comparing with assault vanguards) it needs a little more DPS. The numbers don't seen so bad because of the AoE's but it's lacking single target wise.

 

This tree focus on sustained damage and some utility but it feels like we need just a bit more of higher numbers on some skills. Need a single burst skill to match the anticaster pattern, or a overall dps increase since i think i would be asking too much.

 

My suggestion would be something like replace serrated blades with a 15% critical chance boost (3*5) to ion pulse (just like commando and others have on their main skill, but keeping it away from the assault tree since they already do way more damage and the best kind, burst), increase gut's damage by 100%~200% (we only use it for the slow, and please don't mention non-hib builds because they only exist for the reasons i'm complaining here) or something else, dunno. Maybe +30% fire pulse damage, since it's on a 15 sec CD.

 

thanks

Edited July 2, 2012 by huehuebrbr

[SajPl]

A 15% crit chance to ion pulse would be very nice, but yes, high in the tree because a pyro-assault hybrid would be too powerful if doable ... Tactics is working ok as it is but yes right now it definietly forces the player to work for the damage and is one of the harder builds in the whole game.

[huehuebrbr]

yeap, i didn't even asked for that much of a buff but we sure need a big one the 15% critical increase on ion pulse would be nice, right now it feels like any shield or aditional mitigation just completely nullifies our sustained and besides targets with less expertise and no shield reduction (like reactive shield) fire pulse doesn't really do that much of a spike i can do some good damage with pulse cannon stacks and it's not THAT hard to land but i don't think most people would mind if they changed the tree to focus on something else, even if single target Edited July 2, 2012 by huehuebrbr

[CharterMonkKent]

I run the PT mirror Advanced Prototype and while I'd like a boost in damage it doesn't seem needed. Yesterday, I led in damage quite often and topped 400k damage a number of times.

 

That being said I wouldn't mind an increase in the damage of Prototype Flamethrower (Pulse Generator). 50% increase on a low damage attack is kind of meh. It can do good damage to a group in the right situations but it's not a knockout attack. I'd like it to be feared like Smash, although over the duration it already does more damage than Smash... ok never mind.

[Fdzzaigl]

Some talents do need to be made more appealing in the tree.

Serrated blades: required for the slow, 3 talent points for +15% damage to a meagre DoT = not good.

 

Don't think this should give Ion Pulse crit though, that would be a bit too strong, maybe the DoT could be buffed or the talent could give additional damage or some sort of utility: like healing reduction. I always had huge trouble dealing with healers playing Tactics, because you could only get enough burst off once the stars aligned and 3-4 abilities in a row crit.

 

Would be cool if gut could be tied into the rotation more for the talent tree giving additional benefits to other abilities in it, right now it's just something you spam on people to apply a slow and then forget it.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[FeralPug]

I think the damage of Tactics/AP is fine where it is. If you are grappling to line up multiple targets for flamethrower, you can do a lot of damage.

 

I'd love to see the retractable blade snare last a little longer or cost a little less heat-wise. My biggest complaint is that Hydraulic Overrides have a silly animation (great sound effect though!)

[TheOpf]

Tactics is a fine tree, the problem we have is when you come in expecting to play like it's pyro/assaults "live or die" motto. Tactics is a highly mobile and extremely consistent damage spec. It is the most feared powertech/vangaurd spec by intelligent teams simply because it has no mitigation to any of it's attacks and is next to impossible to control. Remember every single attack will hit someone for 2500-3500 on a well-geared player. With HTL it becomes a beast to control or peel off someone.

 

For the weaker players or part timers, pyro seems holy cow awesome, but I have never been beaten by a pyro/assault in a fight where I saw him. When they dot we cleanse, when they use AP or TD we shield, when they Rocket Punch/Stock we stun. They die so fast it's funny.

 

AP/Tactics is 4.7 percent behind Pyro, but has significantly higher survival rates and a greater mobility. Boosting it's damage would be crazy. A small boost to HEGC or making PFT/PG contingent on HEGC would be a much better change.

[FrankyMcShanky]

Tactics is near perfect as is. One of the most well balanced specs in the game. No it's not as powerful as Assault, but that's because assault is insanely OP. Edited July 2, 2012 by FrankyMcShanky

[Dissentus]

Tactics is near perfect as is. Once of the most well balanced specs in the game. No it's not as powerful as Assault, but that's because assault is insanely OP.

 

I think most people are just spoiled because of the other tree, I agree.

[FeralPug]

 

For the weaker players or part timers, pyro seems holy cow awesome, but I have never been beaten by a pyro/assault in a fight where I saw him. When they dot we cleanse,

 

Does HO actually remove the PT DoT? Is that the cleanse you're referring to??

[TheOpf]

Does HO actually remove the PT DoT? Is that the cleanse you're referring to??

 

No referring to the Scoundrel/Operative Cleanse or the Commando/Merc one or the healing sage one. I play with the same group so we watch who gets the dot and cleanse them. If you are playing your Tact against an Assault/Pyro, than shield after TD and stun after RP. HO will cleanse the slow on the dot though.

[huehuebrbr]

No referring to the Scoundrel/Operative Cleanse or the Commando/Merc one or the healing sage one. I play with the same group so we watch who gets the dot and cleanse them. If you are playing your Tact against an Assault/Pyro, than shield after TD and stun after RP. HO will cleanse the slow on the dot though.

so we should get a nerf since we'll be immortal with 7 people healing us at the same time

[TheOpf]

so we should get a nerf since we'll be immortal with 7 people healing us at the same time

 

Huh? where did you get anyone talking about a nerf? We were discussing whether AP/Tactics needed a buff to it's damage.

[CharterMonkKent]

Huh? where did you get anyone talking about a nerf? We were discussing whether AP/Tactics needed a buff to it's damage.

 

he was being snooty because you included cleansing dots as one reason why Advanced Proto beats a pyro. But AP can't cleanse

 

just normal forum back and forth stuff I guess

[TheOpf]

he was being snooty because you included cleansing dots as one reason why Advanced Proto beats a pyro. But AP can't cleanse

 

just normal forum back and forth stuff I guess

 

haha, gotcha, I actually think both Pyro and AP are fine where they are at. Pyro if left unchecked will wreck you, but if you keep an eye on them they are essentially neutered. Their damage is easily removed, and when stunned they die very quickly.

 

AP gives unmitigated consistent damage, and the only way to stop them is to cc and kill them off, but they are extremely tough to peel, and the stun kill takes some time. In fact, most of the time it's best to fight them, but to kill off the easy ones before going back to them. Using stuns to keep them from hurting you too much. The downside is straight consistent damage means you can look at the damage and go okay I can take one or two more before I need to stun.

[TheOpf]

By the way, Huehue, if you haven't figured out why the Norse build is around, than you haven't been playing your PT long. Gut is better than it looks in terms of it gives you a rolling dot for your crit HiB's. The biggest benefit of Norse is the damage mitigation, increased CC, and unmitigated attacks. It does not do as much damage nor have the burst of HiB Tactics, but it does give you greater utility and control in a WZ.

[CharterMonkKent]

haha, gotcha, I actually think both Pyro and AP are fine where they are at. Pyro if left unchecked will wreck you, but if you keep an eye on them they are essentially neutered. Their damage is easily removed, and when stunned they die very quickly.

 

AP gives unmitigated consistent damage, and the only way to stop them is to cc and kill them off, but they are extremely tough to peel, and the stun kill takes some time. In fact, most of the time it's best to fight them, but to kill off the easy ones before going back to them. Using stuns to keep them from hurting you too much. The downside is straight consistent damage means you can look at the damage and go okay I can take one or two more before I need to stun.

 

I also like the tanky-ness of AP. A stunned AP will have 60% flat damage reduction with adrenal/shield/stabilized armor

[TheOpf]

I also like the tanky-ness of AP. A stunned AP will have 60% flat damage reduction with adrenal/shield/stabilized armor

 

I can transfer to Bastion haha as a member of AP they are offering it to us ;P. Going to see what the guild wants to do, but if we transfer I shall hunt you on my scoundrel and wave hello ;p.

[HeavensTerror]

Tactics is how AS should be. I do decent dmg and have good burst with it.

 

AS is just lulz.

[SajPl]

By the way, Huehue, if you haven't figured out why the Norse build is around, than you haven't been playing your PT long. Gut is better than it looks in terms of it gives you a rolling dot for your crit HiB's. The biggest benefit of Norse is the damage mitigation, increased CC, and unmitigated attacks. It does not do as much damage nor have the burst of HiB Tactics, but it does give you greater utility and control in a WZ.

 

Just checked out your guides - awesome insight - and while I think Tactics could use a slight buff overall I lately grately enjoy the tree, respecced from Assault Specialist.

[CharterMonkKent]

I can transfer to Bastion haha as a member of AP they are offering it to us ;P. Going to see what the guild wants to do, but if we transfer I shall hunt you on my scoundrel and wave hello ;p.

 

Please do. I played 3 WZs last night to do the daily and had a one bug me while I killed healers. I'd say he was a little guy but my toon is as small as they get, and wears purple armor. So really I'm the little guy.

 

But for realz if you head to the bastion we should pvp together. I rarely fight with another AP, would be great to throw 2 PTFs on a group

[TheOpf]

Please do. I played 3 WZs last night to do the daily and had a one bug me while I killed healers. I'd say he was a little guy but my toon is as small as they get, and wears purple armor. So really I'm the little guy.

 

But for realz if you head to the bastion we should pvp together. I rarely fight with another AP, would be great to throw 2 PTFs on a group

 

I rarely play my PT anymore, as my entire pvp team decided to play Republic so I became a dirty fighting scoundrel. I wouldn't mind getting on him from time to time for some fun WZ's. As for moving it looks like it may be a few days before they let us move over.

Edited July 3, 2012 by TheOpf

[vojinsa]

there is a NoRS spec (sure VG twin could apply) floating around and the vid is awesome.

 

 

not mine but an awesome spec for tactics with a vid.

[Percee]

Tactics is near perfect as is. One of the most well balanced specs in the game. No it's not as powerful as Assault, but that's because assault is insanely OP.

 

No man Pyro isnt op they trade high mobility and good survivability for better damage. Also pyro is all about burst damage whereas tactics is more about sustained damage. So those are different trees that serve different purpose, take the burst away from the pyro tree and you might as well delete it. I do agree that tactics needs a slight buff to make it more appealing tho.

[FrankyMcShanky]

No man Pyro isnt op they trade high mobility and good survivability for better damage. Also pyro is all about burst damage whereas tactics is more about sustained damage. So those are different trees that serve different purpose, take the burst away from the pyro tree and you might as well delete it. I do agree that tactics needs a slight buff to make it more appealing tho.

 

Okay. I know it won't help but let me try and explain to you how everything you just said is completely false.

 

Pyro/assault is the definition of mobile. They have melee dps on a ranged platform and don't you dare try and claim they're melee with only stockstrike/rocket punch being their only 4 meter ability. Yes it has the highest chance to proc HiB/RS but who cares, they can move in stockstrike and move out all while their target is snared by 50%.

 

Poor survivability? Really? This is the most asinine Assault/Pyro myth out there. They are no more fragile than any other dps (with the exception of muraders/sents.) They require just as much support as any other dps in the game and are actually one of the sturdier classes when they have it.

 

I never said assault/pyro needs their burst removed and I don't appreciate you implying that I did. They deserve a burst spec and that's okay. The problem is that they have WAY to much burst. When you they can pop a +25% crit chance ability and fire off an assault plastique, railshot, stockstrike, and another railshot all while their two dot's are ticking away for for 4.5k, 3k, 4.5k, and 4.5k hits all over the span of 3 global cooldowns you have a serious issue. Those numbers are not only realistic but very conservative estimates that don't consider the two dot's slowly burning away health at the same time.

 

Tactics is a very good spec for applying pressure to a team. It brings a tremendous amount of utility, mobility, and survivability to the table as well as a large amount of sustained unmitigatible damage. Not only that, it is most importantly incredibly fun play.

 

So no, Tactics doesn't need a buff. Assault needs a nerf. If you're too blind to see that you're probably far to biased or incompetent to be taken seriously.

Edited July 4, 2012 by FrankyMcShanky