Why are PvPers getting screwed?

[LordNyxus]

I do not understand why BioWare has decided to push PvPers to the back burner. It seems that every "patch" does less to offer a more engaging PvP experience and more to drive PvP away. Before you get all riled up, hear me out.

 

There is no real integration between PvP and PvE. A PvEer can sustain himself without ever needing to step into a warzone. As a matter of fact, a PvEer will excel financially over any hard-core PvPer. PvPers are being forced to move outside of the PvP arena to sustain themselves. In order to to be competitive, PvPers must sink credits into the new Augments. The cost of modifying all gear with augment slots is far greater than the reward given for participating in PvP.

 

BioWare overlooked the need for an open world PvP system, which could have been used as a means to integrate the PvE and PvP community. Though Ilum was a failure, mechanically, it was a great respite from warzones and provided another opportunity for PvPers to earn some credits without having to resort to PvE dailies.

 

Creating daily missions in which opposing factions (Republic and Imperial) are brought into contention would be a great way to add life back to PvP. Why can't every planet have daily missions in which opposing factions fight for the same reward?

 

The grind cost for PvP gear is extremely ridiculous. It is not equal to PvE gear grinding. Rated Warzones are a great addition as it allows us to grind Ranked Warzone credits a bit faster. If you lose the match you will receive a little more than what you would have gained by winning a regular warzone (After converting WZ commendations to RWZ commendations). However, the reward is not equal to the cost. The rewards from the PvP daily and weekly are minuscule. The amount of credits earned for a warzone is pathetic---all while BioWare tries to make us spend more and more.

 

How can BioWare fix SWTOR, or is it too late? Why does every new modification seem to push the game further into the rut?

[Orangerascal]

A PvEer can sustain himself without ever needing to step into a warzone. As a matter of fact, a PvEer will excel financially over any hard-core PvPer. PvPers are being forced to move outside of the PvP arena to sustain themselves. In order to to be competitive, PvPers must sink credits into the new Augments.

 

As someone who has not pve'd in months, you must be doing something incredibly wrong.

 

1) You just got 350k for free with the new patch, per character

 

2) You're not forced to augment your gear (though you should to be competitive). Make friends who are crafters, or craft them yourself. A little forward thinking would have allowed you to make so much money this patch because of the sudden need for augments and augment kits. Augments and augment kits are really easy to make.

 

3) This is another example of the 'give-me' culture. If you pvp 3 times a day, you gain about 30k, without having to spend all the little things pvers spend money on (respecs, repairs, travel). Also nothing stops you from doing dailies between pops instead of being a wall ornament in the fleet.

 

4) If you decide not to craft, then wait a bit before buying augments and kits, they are highly inflated right now.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Orangerascal

[kweassa]

...yet another "I want to be as versatile as someone who took the long time and effort to make adequate preparations for PvP - except I wants it right now, with zero effort" tantrum.

 

 

Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

[Lord_Karsk]

This is very true OP, by doing only PvP one can not afford to craft or by anything in the legacy that one

have alredy earnd by PvP in hundreds maybe thousands of warzones.If one do only PvP when one comes to lvl 50 one is lucky if one can afford all the skills as one lvl up.And at 50 you can make 7000 k X 5-15 along the lines of 70-400 k a day doing PvE dailys. PvP players get 7000 thats it,+ those few credits from the warzones loss/winn.

 

Fact is everytime bioware have done something with PvP as in costs etc it have only been to nerf and punish PvP players for enjoying that type of gameplay.And anyone saying somethhing else must have been playing a new game.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Lord_Karsk

[kweassa]

This is very true OP, by doing only PvP one can not afford to craft or by anything in the legacy that one

have alredy earnd by PvP in hundreds maybe thousands of warzones.If one do only PvP when one comes to lvl 50 one is lucky if one can afford all the skills as one lvl up.And at 50 you can make 7000X 5-15 along the lines of 70-400 k a day doing PvE dailys. PvP players get 7000 thats it,+ those few credits from the warzones loss/winn.

 

Fact is everytime bioware have done something with PvP as in costs etc it have only been to nerf and punish PvP players for enjoy that type of gameplay.And anyone saying somethhing else must have been playing a new game.

 

Spare us the theatrics, please.

 

People always seem to find a way to present their own vices (such as laziness) as if its due to no fault of their own... and there's always this grand scheme of things where the developers touch something, and some changes or chain reaction occurs that effects every player on a universal scale and brings doom to the game... talk about exaggeration, sheesh.

 

Run daily missions while queued to PvP, and enjoy a few games whenever you're enroute somewhere, or doing some dailies, and within a week you get all the credits and commendation you'd need for most piece of gear, or a GTN purchase, or etc.

 

PvP is many things, but it is not the be-all end-all method of making money or levelling. The XP and monetary gain is a mere supplement to PvP itself, and if you want to gain money or progress in level, then go play PvE.

 

Simple as that.

 

So stop conjuring some ridiculous mumbo-jumbo excuse as to why you're too lazy to run a few dailies, and just go earn the credits you need. Again, simple as that.

[Cooperal]

Simple answer: Whiners.

 

-It's the reason that Battlemaster instantly went from requiring experience to begin earning to practically getting handed out in a few small matches.

 

-It's the reason high valor players have little left to fight for other than getting some new pets and a meh-looking speeder (whoopee doo).

 

-It's the reason cheapskates now a get quest that hands them recruit gear free and instantly.

 

-At this rate medpacks are probably going to see a removal at some point.

 

Extremely vocal idiots are the worst kind of idiots. Without respect to other players, they wish to reap all the benefits of the people that worked for them. Usually the excuse being that their unwillingness to play or that their busy lifestyle is a good excuse to punish everyone else. In other words, they want all incentive besides some vanity items to be over and done with in less than a month.

 

They should really change the paint job on the Korrealis Sovereign. It should have words to say something like "I reached Valor 65 before patch 1.2 and all I got was this landspeeder.

 

Edit: On the topic of PvPers not being able to sustain themselves... What? All PvP related expenses are paid for with PvP rewards. No credits for repairs, no credits for medpacks, no credits for gear (not even recruit as of 1.3), no need to craft. At most they need credits for augment slots or to swap mods into different gear for aesthetic sake (not important). A game types rewards will sustain you for that gametype. Thank god higher end PvE gear won't get people far in PVP.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Cooperal

[Rehme]

I added a few things from my own experience in orange below.

 

As someone who has not pve'd in months, you must be doing something incredibly wrong.

 

1) You just got 350k for free with the new patch, per character

 

I agree. Yeah because I have 4 alts geared in recruit already I basically got 1.2 mil in creds free. As an aside I think its absolute ridiculous Biofail not only gave people free recruit gear but a frickin 320k credit token! lol Really? Money was stupid easy to get in this game to begin with.

 

2) You're not forced to augment your gear (though you should to be competitive). Make friends who are crafters, or craft them yourself. A little forward thinking would have allowed you to make so much money this patch because of the sudden need for augments and augment kits. Augments and augment kits are really easy to make.

 

You're not forced to augment but if you plan on being viable in ranked warzones id HIGHLY recommend it. For my scenario I had 4 alts with the applicable crew skills and with all the credits I amassed from #1. I dumped those credits into crafting augmention kits and buying augments for my main and Im now fully augmented. I admittedly spent too much on overpriced power augments.

 

3) This is another example of the 'give-me' culture. If you pvp 3 times a day, you gain about 30k, without having to spend all the little things pvers spend money on (respecs, repairs, travel). Also nothing stops you from doing dailies between pops instead of being a wall ornament in the fleet.

 

In addition to the dailies/pvp you can also run low level flashpoints like boarding party for credits. For about 15 minutes per run you can get about 35-38k. Its mind numbingly boring but it adds up per hour and you dont even need to leave the fleet.

 

4) If you decide not to craft, then wait a bit before buying augments and kits, they are highly inflated right now.

[kitsinni]

Before the last patch I had all augmented war hero gear and I don't run ANY dailies or any other BS. I purchased all the crit crafted gear and all the augments and paid to move all the mods with just the money I got from PvPing.

[DarkDruidSS]

I'm a PvPer at heart, but the PvP community never seccess to amaze me with thier complaints. I get that you want to PvP and only PvP, but if that is your main drive and only goal in the game then you have to come to the realization that acquiring some things are going to be slower than someone that actually plays more of the game.

 

I don't see how forcing people to PvE in this game is a bad thing. We already have very little open world PvP going on. So anything that makes people get off the fleet into the open world is a good thing. I just wish they would make the PvE daily hubs closer or give some incentive for open world.... because sadly no one does anything in a MMO now without incentive. The days of OPvPing for the sake of PvP are over. People want rewards... that is why you are complaining in this thread in the first place because you feel you are not being rewarded enough for the WZs you do.

 

Even if you don't want to PvE you can do missions for crafting mats. High demand crafting mats sell well. You want to get those augments then you need the Advanced Neural Augmentors and those always sell decently. So you can sit there at 50... I hope you did your main quest so that you have all your companions and you can send out 5 at a time just to get mats to sell. That way, you can sit on the fleet and pvp all day still making more money than just pvping by itself.

 

Another thing you can do its you can play AH clean up. By that I mean search for items that people are selling at extremely low undercut prices and then see how much that same item sells at the vendor. If I'm extremely strapped for cash then I will gladly buy a few stacks of crap that people are selling for way too low because they don't under stand economics and how always undercutting is a bad thing. You can actually turn good profits by doing this and it helps out with all the bloat on the AH.

[CaptainApop]

Someone who only warzones probably doesn't have a ton of superfluos cash. (Although they have no expenses either tbh)

 

Someone who only plays operations probably doesn't have a ton of superfluous cash (assuming they aren't just farming content)

 

Any cash these give you are not intended to be the be all and end all to your credit worries. The following are.

 

- GTN crafting/selling. Perfectly viable standalone source of income.

 

- Dailies As said do them between queues and it's not even a chore.

 

- FARM CONTENT ( This is what you're mistaking for pve'ing)

 

As for augments, protip MK-5 kits and lvl 21 augs are considerably cheaper atm and only one endurance point is lost.

Edited June 29, 2012 by CaptainApop

[LarryRow]

It's the reason that Battlemaster instantly went from requiring experience to begin earning to practically getting handed out in a few small matches.

 

Much of your post was spot on, but I disagree with this ^.

 

Can we as a community please stop treating post-1.2 Battlemaster the same as pre-1.2 Battlemaster. All the pvp gear was re-tiered and Battlemaster is now the new Champion. It's the middle tier, it's about as easy to get as Champion, and this makes sure that new 50s don't get utterly destroyed for longer than a couple weeks.

 

If the new War Hero gear was as easy to obtain as the old Champion gear, then you'd have something. But it was my understanding that when new tiers of gear come out in an MMO to give the top players something new to shoot for, the rest of the gear is reworked to keep the system more or less equally fair for the newbies.

[Kanana]

I fully agree. You shouldn't have to do anything - especially not anything "mind numbingly boring" - to be able to enjoy the game and get the gear. If you only pvp that should be enough to let you gain credits to keep up with those who farm dailies.

 

Spare me the "But I have costs" lies. You don't get noticeable repair costs in pve grinds. Even as a tank the repair costs are neglible when doing dailies.

 

Any activity - pve, raiding, pvp, space - should net comparable credits for time spent.

 

And before anyone comes with the oh so "intelligent" argumentabout "earning" stuff: it's a game. If you think it should be work you probably are too young to have worked in your life yet.

 

And no, I am not lazy and want free stuff - I got all crafting skills covered on alts, and I had enough materials prepared to make a decent sum of 1.3's initial augment rush. But that shouldn't be needed to enjoy the game.

 

A pvper's playtime is as valuable as a pvers, and should net equal credits.

[DarkDruidSS]

I fully agree. You shouldn't have to do anything - especially not anything "mind numbingly boring" - to be able to enjoy the game and get the gear. If you only pvp that should be enough to let you gain credits to keep up with those who farm dailies.

 

Spare me the "But I have costs" lies. You don't get noticeable repair costs in pve grinds. Even as a tank the repair costs are neglible when doing dailies.

 

Any activity - pve, raiding, pvp, space - should net comparable credits for time spent.

 

And before anyone comes with the oh so "intelligent" argumentabout "earning" stuff: it's a game. If you think it should be work you probably are too young to have worked in your life yet.

 

And no, I am not lazy and want free stuff - I got all crafting skills covered on alts, and I had enough materials prepared to make a decent sum of 1.3's initial augment rush. But that shouldn't be needed to enjoy the game.

 

A pvper's playtime is as valuable as a pvers, and should net equal credits.

 

You guys know why WZ credits were nerfed right? It has nothing to do with the PvErs. You can thank all the AFK/Botters farming credits. I've seen these bots back in the first few months of release.

[Altheran]

Doing PvP don't earn as much money, as doing PvE does. It's a fact. In a Warzone you earn as much money as you would do just killing NPC in 5 minutes. If you add trash loots, and green loots that you sell 1000 creds each, in 15 minutes of random-NPC-killing, you can earn 3 times more money than doing PvP.

 

And this is true without the fact that PvP has only 1 daily quest earning 7000, while PvE has 10+ quests giving 7000 each. And if you find a "Treasure Chest", 5000+ credits for free. We can add, free crafting materials, that PvPer have to pay with missions.

[pureeffinmetal]

Wow. Just wow.

 

Why is it when a PVP Player might have to occasionally PVE for say, credits, its an unbelievable outrage and Bioware is out to get them?

 

But say, when a PVE Player, has to PVP to achieve his Best in Slot items, such as augmented gloves and boots prior to 1.3, or War Hero Relics, post 1.3, people just gloss over and ignore the facts?

 

Did 1.3 Not give you Ranked Warzones? Did 1.3 include any new Operations?

 

I PVE and PVP. Enjoy both, and am would consider myself quite good at both. But seriously, just because you're sole PVP Player (or PVE) - you are not more entitled than any other player that pays his 15$ a month. Get over it.

 

TL;DR. Bioware has more things to do than just babysit the concerns of every PVPer crying about something. There are plenty other people crying about plenty other things.

Edited June 29, 2012 by pureeffinmetal

[DarkDruidSS]

Wow. Just wow.

 

Why is it when a PVP Player might have to occasionally PVE for say, credits, its an unbelievable outrage and Bioware is out to get them?

 

But say, when a PVE Player, has to PVP to achieve his Best in Slot items, such as augmented gloves and boots prior to 1.3, or War Hero Relics, post 1.3, people just gloss over and ignore the facts?

 

Did 1.3 Not give you Ranked Warzones? Did 1.3 include any new Operations?

 

I PVE and PVP. Enjoy both, and am would consider myself quite good at both. But seriously, just because you're sole PVP Player (or PVE) - you are not more entitled than any other player that pays his 15$ a month. Get over it.

 

TL;DR. Bioware has more things to do than just babysit the concerns of every PVPer crying about something. There are plenty other people crying about plenty other things.

 

Um.... Ranked Warzones aren't new content. PVErs did get a new Operation and flashpoint in 1.2. PVPers have had PvP content removed. Ranked Warzones are a feature... features are not content.

 

I won't argue with your gear statements, but add that the only way to get orange belts or bracers is through PvE and they can't be fully modded for PvP... so it goes both ways with gear.

[Jalal]

This is a question Bioware should ask themselves. Do they want the PVP only crowd to keep playing or not. If so make it viable for them. I assume they are doing this for money otherwise they would have created something new and risky instead of SWWOW.

 

Working hard for stuff has nothing to do with it and is childish to ridicule someone for in a game that I am paying for. I would simply like reasonable rewards for time spent, Pvp is a significant amount of time that I enjoy, reward me reasonably for that and you will keep getting my money.

 

Life has stuff you don't enjoy because there is no way around it, games shouldn't.

[netskink]

Simple answer: Whiners.

 

-It's the reason that Battlemaster instantly went from requiring experience to begin earning to practically getting handed out in a few small matches.

 

-It's the reason high valor players have little left to fight for other than getting some new pets and a meh-looking speeder (whoopee doo).

 

-It's the reason cheapskates now a get quest that hands them recruit gear free and instantly.

 

-At this rate medpacks are probably going to see a removal at some point.

 

Extremely vocal idiots are the worst kind of idiots. Without respect to other players, they wish to reap all the benefits of the people that worked for them. Usually the excuse being that their unwillingness to play or that their busy lifestyle is a good excuse to punish everyone else. In other words, they want all incentive besides some vanity items to be over and done with in less than a month.

 

They should really change the paint job on the Korrealis Sovereign. It should have words to say something like "I reached Valor 65 before patch 1.2 and all I got was this landspeeder.

 

Edit: On the topic of PvPers not being able to sustain themselves... What? All PvP related expenses are paid for with PvP rewards. No credits for repairs, no credits for medpacks, no credits for gear (not even recruit as of 1.3), no need to craft. At most they need credits for augment slots or to swap mods into different gear for aesthetic sake (not important). A game types rewards will sustain you for that gametype. Thank god higher end PvE gear won't get people far in PVP.

 

I think you miss the point, I don't enjoy daily pve missions nor do I enjoy space missions. Yes, I've done them. But seriously do you realize the space missions and pve dailies are the same each and every time? Do you understand that despite the setting of the pvp matches being the same, each game and result is different?

 

If a company wants to have a "good" game, it should create the ability for peope to do things they enjoy and not require them to do boring grinding mind numbing things. I do not understand why that is difficult to understand.

[KBSIP]

Um.... Ranked Warzones aren't new content. PVErs did get a new Operation and flashpoint in 1.2. PVPers have had PvP content removed. Ranked Warzones are a feature... features are not content.

 

I won't argue with your gear statements, but add that the only way to get orange belts or bracers is through PvE and they can't be fully modded for PvP... so it goes both ways with gear.

 

PVP got a new currency, new warzone, two new gear tiers, nerfed access to the new middle tier gear, and server merges (admittedly for everyone). PVE got a new operation and a new flashpoint, along with a new gear tier. seems pretty on par to me.

 

to say additions of RWZ doesn't count is BS, because we still don't have nightmare mode of Denova. so guess what, PVP got more than PVE in 1.3.

[KBSIP]

I think you miss the point, I don't enjoy daily pve missions nor do I enjoy space missions. Yes, I've done them. But seriously do you realize the space missions and pve dailies are the same each and every time? Do you understand that despite the setting of the pvp matches being the same, each game and result is different?

 

If a company wants to have a "good" game, it should create the ability for peope to do things they enjoy and not require them to do boring grinding mind numbing things. I do not understand why that is difficult to understand.

 

most PVE players don't like dailies either. its farm content, I do it because it gives me money. that's about it.

[DarkDruidSS]

PVP got a new currency, new warzone, two new gear tiers, nerfed access to the new middle tier gear, and server merges (admittedly for everyone). PVE got a new operation and a new flashpoint, along with a new gear tier. seems pretty on par to me.

 

to say additions of RWZ doesn't count is BS, because we still don't have nightmare mode of Denova. so guess what, PVP got more than PVE in 1.3.

 

Currency is not content. Gear is not content. Nerfs are not content. Server merges are not content... What is this? Trying to grab at straws here? Seriously... currency, gear, nerfs and server merges are new content for you? NO, just no.

 

PvE since release has 1 new daily quest area, 4 new bosses added in KP, 2 flashpoints (Kaon Under Seige and Lost Island) added, 1 new operation added Explosive Conflict.

 

PvP since release Ilum's PvP content was completely removed. Outlaw's Den has been nulified because the high end crafting material nodes were removed. They added chests to get recruit gear in 1.2, but then in 1.3 turned around and gave free recruit gear to all that ding 50... so once again it's pointless to go there other than the exploration quest... which is PvE.

 

1 warzone was added for PvP. That is all the actual new content that has been added to PvP.

[Quinlynn]

Easiest fix to your gripe would be removal of Expertise / PVP gear and make Gear Gear regardless of your chosen game activity.

 

This is exacly how SWG worked and it was loads of fun doing both PVP and PVE. Many PVE achievements also offered benefits for PVP. i.e. stat increases and best gear / rewards.

 

IMHO

[islander]

Well you know, Bioware has 2 months left to unscrew us.

 

GW2 has a release date now (in 2 months, to the day yesterday)

[Eillack]

As someone who has not pve'd in months, you must be doing something incredibly wrong.

 

1) You just got 350k for free with the new patch, per character

I haven't

2) You're not forced to augment your gear (though you should to be competitive). Make friends who are crafters, or craft them yourself. A little forward thinking would have allowed you to make so much money this patch because of the sudden need for augments and augment kits. Augments and augment kits are really easy to make.

 

3) This is another example of the 'give-me' culture. If you pvp 3 times a day, you gain about 30k, without having to spend all the little things pvers spend money on (respecs, repairs, travel). Also nothing stops you from doing dailies between pops instead of being a wall ornament in the fleet.

Not really in my opinion, PvP in TOR really does limit someone compared to a more active PvE'er.

4) If you decide not to craft, then wait a bit before buying augments and kits, they are highly inflated right now.

 

2 cents

[DarkDruidSS]

Many PVE achievements also offered benefits for PVP. i.e. stat increases and best gear / rewards.

 

This is exactly why there is expertise. PVE shouldn't have advantages in PvP. The best PVE gear is campaign gear. Which means you would have to be a hard core PVEr to get that gear. Without expertise that gear would be the best in the game.. period. If they gave equivalent gear to PvPers for PvPing then a lot of people would stop PvEing for there gear because PvP grinding is largely considered easier or better because there is a clear set track of how much gear costs and how long it will take you to get it vs RNG drops praying to the gaming gods you get your upgrade in Ops while rolling against fellow players that also want that upgrade which can only be run once a week. Not to mention people do both modes of gameplay so they would gear up twice as fast versus someone that only does PvE or PvP.

Edited June 29, 2012 by DarkDruidSS