Contrablast Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I have a well geared Vanguard (Black Hole/Rakata set bonus fully augmented out since 1.3) and I really want to maximize my overall damage in raids. I am currently sporting the Tactics build with a rotation centered around the Pulse Generator. I can hack it in most ops groups but I really want to do more. Is the Assault spec much better? I've tried it and it doesn't seem to be much more damage. What is the best rotation? Or does anyone have rotation suggestions for either of these specs? Thoughts and ideas are appreciated...thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjfett Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 You want something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMbZ0cZfhrbzGGMs.1 Quoted from a thread on VG Assaults I started on my own guild's forum, rotation will look something like this.... Rotation is generally: 1. Assault Plastique 2. Incendiary Round (just to get the DOT rolling so apply sparingly, do not spam) 3. ION PULSE SPAM LIKE YOU ARE A FREAKING JEDI!!!!!! (< good DPS, but also high increase in HIB insta GQD) 4. high impact bolt EVERYTIME it comes up....HIB will often times require no ammo as the spec can make it instantly up before the GCD and free ammo cost 5. if you have no ammo (as this is a heavy ammo usage temp) hit Recharge Cells (hot keyed as you'll use it often) 6. If none of the above apply, hit Hammer shot...a lot. If you are in range and 1-4 are not usable, you need to be spamming HS over and over and over....it has an increased chance to trigger Plasma Cell, which has a 100% chance to apply a 50% snare that you need in order to catch up to the target to kick in 1-4 That rotation should give you a nice solid DPS that compares with any other DPS classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickAdams Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Kjfett, how come that rotation doesn't include stock strike? Also, becaue ammo regen gets worse when you get under 8 bars, instead of spamming hammer shot when you've blown all your ammo (.24 bars per sec regen vs .6), it's about 250% better to weave in hammer shot before you go below 8 bars (assuming reload is on CD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrablast Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) That's an Assault rotation I have never tried. I will give it a shot. And yes, I would definitely sprinkle HS throughout the rotation instead of depleting ammo...that kills DPS more than anything in my book. Edited June 27, 2012 by Contrablast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjfett Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Kjfett, how come that rotation doesn't include stock strike? Also, becaue ammo regen gets worse when you get under 8 bars, instead of spamming hammer shot when you've blown all your ammo (.24 bars per sec regen vs .6), it's about 250% better to weave in hammer shot before you go below 8 bars (assuming reload is on CD). I'm sure you are correct for PVE regarding ammo usage as they tend to drag out longer. I'm all PVP though and I should have clarified that for the rotation, which does deliver major spike damage (needed to kill a player in PVP). As for SS, why? slight increased chance to proc HIB, but it requires <4 range and has a long CD? IP is instant so it can be fired at every GCD till HIB procs and it has a <10m range, making me more mobile and more able to stay outside of the 4m range of melee attacks. SS just isn't worth the QCD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrablast Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Okay yeah, that clarifies it. This sounds like a more PVP friendly rotation...but as mentioned this is for PVE. I'm looking for the optimal rotation and damage in raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjfett Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 That's an Assault rotation I have never tried. I will give it a shot. And yes, I would definitely sprinkle HS throughout the rotation instead of depleting ammo...that kills DPS more than anything in my book. I should have clarified it was more of a PVP rotation so adjustments would have to be made for PVE, sorry. The rotation should give you an idea of how the skills play together when working a PVE rotation though. PVP requires the burst DPS that it gives. Having ammo and not killing anything because healers are healing your target doesn't work so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjfett Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Okay yeah, that clarifies it. This sounds like a more PVP friendly rotation...but as mentioned this is for PVE. I'm looking for the optimal rotation and damage in raids. Mixing in HS in #3 for big targets like a boss would be a good PVE approach. HS keeps applying damage while not using ammo and allowing ammo to recharge. Just don't use HS so much that you are constantly full of ammo. Mix it in at #3 to ride the 8 bars as near as possible. The more IPs you shoot, the greater the chance to proc a free HIB, which is great for DPS vs ammo usage. There are time in PVE where you will need to lay down a lot of DPS very quickly as well and my rotation is perfect for that. It is a very big spike that can last a fair amount of time when you can blow recharge to feed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrablast Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 kjfett, excellent suggestion. I am going to test this on a dummy tonight and see what happens. Thanks for the pointers guys...anyone else have ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrablast Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 Just tried your rotation on a 5/5/31 Assault built and got almost 300 more DPS. Pretty good improvement if may say so. I may tinker around with it a bit as it is bursty for PVE, but all in all I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjfett Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Just tried your rotation on a 5/5/31 Assault built and got almost 300 more DPS. Pretty good improvement if may say so. I may tinker around with it a bit as it is bursty for PVE, but all in all I like it! good to hear you liked it. Also, I know people sometimes forget about the other self buff in VG, Battle Focus. Be sure you are using that as well. 25% crit bonus for 15 seconds....when you are getting ready to go into my spike DPS rotation, hit that and run IPs as fast as possible cycling in the HIBs as they proc. that'll give you a fast 15 second spike that is a nice boost as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starrhawk Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Here's a standard Assault PVE build: http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pve/trooper/vanguard/assault-specialist/talent-builds And a link detailing the basic rotation for single target and AOE Assault PVE dps: http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pve/trooper/vanguard/assault-specialist/dps-rotation-and-cooldowns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 As a sheild spec vanguard, when i switch to dps i prefer Tactics. It has more utility and its lack of burst can be made up for with monster aoe dmg for fights with adds. I also like it for the lower interupt cooldown. I'd point out that the Tactics tree is a much more melee heavy rotation. You will need to be within 10 yards or closer for optimum dps. Which means you compete with sentinels for a melee dps spot. If you are haveing ammo regen problems, i highly suggest tactics over assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skodde Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 All terrible suggestions. Here are some key facts about being an Assault Vanguard: - You live and die by HIB - Dots comprise more than 30% of your damage - You cannot spec in both highest DPS and ammo management Let me expand on these points. HIB is your main nuke. You want it to proc as soon as 6 second internal cooldown is up. SS is essential since it has a 45% chance of proccing HIB. it costs exactly the same amount of ammo as AP, does about 70% of AP's damage and is a gateway to free HIB + 1 ammo restored. AP does nothing of the sort and, therefore, is an inferior skill. Dots must be up on target at all times, both from IR and IP. Yes, there is a lot of grief given to IR for it being expensive for the damage it does, but in my personal opinion it's worth it because it doesn't require your attention for 18 seconds, it doesn't proc internal cd for HIB and can be refreshed for free 1 out of 3 times (if specced into reserve powercell cd reduction). Dots have a chance to crit every time they tick, dots get a substantial damage boost on targets below 30% health, dots generally rock. AP does not. Spend those ammo points on IP, SS or IR because all of these abilities are a gateway to more damage - HIB or dot. Finally, whoever suggested spamming IP has probably never been in an intense boss fight. You can do that in PVP because your TTL is less than a minute. In PVE, ammo management is absolutely paramount. Once you screw up your ammo management and let it dip below 5 points, your DPS for the rest of the fight is going to be affected. Let me repeat that - ONE screw up on ammo management on a boss fight affects THE REST of the fight. From experience, once you get trigger happy and end up with 0 ammo, consider that a 100-200 DPS loss for the entire fight, because you are going to be hammer-shooting for 30-40 seconds while you are getting back on track. I am not going to get into specs here, but I do want to provide a blueprint for PVE dps rotation: - Keep HIB on cd - Keep SS on cd - Keep IR dot up - Use IP if all of the above is true and you are over 8 ammo points - if you are below 7 ammo points, use HS - if you ended up in 4-6 ammo point land, use HS between every dps ability to help get your ammo back to 11-12 Source of all this: personal experience, trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skodde Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Oh, and if you want to be taken seriously as DPS, never go full tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjfett Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) All terrible suggestions. and yet you pretty much nailed what I had detailed out through the first page of posts by 90%. The 10% difference is in your recommendation of using SS, which from a PVE standpoint may make more sense, but is not justified in PVP, which was where my translation from Assault PVP to Assault PVE ran into trouble. Ohh, and AP isn't a waste, single GCD to apply and it. Only 2 ammo. Is as good a bang for the buck as any other attack. Edited June 28, 2012 by kjfett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytea Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 You want something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMbZ0cZfhrbzGGMs.1 Quoted from a thread on VG Assaults I started on my own guild's forum, rotation will look something like this.... That rotation should give you a nice solid DPS that compares with any other DPS classes. When I click on that link I see a 4/2/4 build Could you re-post the link please? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyssandra Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I have a well geared Vanguard (Black Hole/Rakata set bonus fully augmented out since 1.3) and I really want to maximize my overall damage in raids. I am currently sporting the Tactics build with a rotation centered around the Pulse Generator. I can hack it in most ops groups but I really want to do more. Is the Assault spec much better? I've tried it and it doesn't seem to be much more damage. What is the best rotation? Or does anyone have rotation suggestions for either of these specs? Thoughts and ideas are appreciated...thanks! From a PVE perspective I tend to agree with Skodde and not so much with kjfett (e.g. Assault Plastique is a waste, you cannot maximize both ammo regen and DPS, etc). My advice to you would be to spend a couple of hours with different builds, parsing your logs and figuring out what makes sense, as then you have verified for yourself what internet strangers have told you I am partially Rakata/ Columi geared. With 1.3 I see a significant nerf to my DPS (around 1140 before) but I was in assault spec using HiB, Stock Strike quite heavily. I'm still trying to figure out how to better my DPS. Hmm torhead seems to have switched the trees around - so I'm referring to what it is on torhead in the following comments. Pre 1.3 I used to run mostly as Assault Spec 28/8/5 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc/#801fhMbdGhMcZhMhZMc.2 Rather than rotations per se I tend to have priorities whch are adjusted depending on the enemy, situation, etc. For single target - I usually start off with incendiary round, HiB (whenever procced), use SS and IP to proc HIB and sprinkle hammer shot and HiB as needed to keep myself at 4 regen. I used to lead with sticky but found that using sticky was actually a loss in DPS once I parsed on the dummy - so now I use sticky only to CC normal mobs. This used to be the highest PVE DPS for vanguard as far as I know - not as easy energy management wise as tactics but higher DPS if you can pull it off. I tried a tactics build post 1.3 2/8/31 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc/#801bZhMhZMsrrRrfo0s.2 with single target priorities being gut, pulse cannon, HiB, SS, firepulse, IP. With this yesterday I was hitting actual DPS in a HM FP of around 860. My recommendation to you would be to try different builds and parse to see what is best. PS - don't forget to change cell e.g. high energy cell for tactics tree If anyone has comments or results to share - I would be interested in your results as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I wrote the vanguard tactics guide and there is a phenomenal guide for Pyro PT's on the Powertech forums. I will freely admit in the way fights are stationed right now. Assault is better for pve in terms of pure damage output, but you will die more often. When I run as AP, I am about 2 percent better than my guild. When I run as Pyro/Assault, I am 6 percent better. Currently that's about standard AP/Tactics is 4.7 percent behind Pyro/Assault. Which puts it close enough for you to play what you are comfortable with. However in Denova's heavy movement fights - Assault/Pyro dominates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsanth Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I'd actually like to add some things about the assault plastique or not discussion... I"m not gonna lie, but in a straight out dummy parse, not having assault plastique will give better results, however, in many fights, you will have burst phases for damage, such as on Kephess, Soa, and guys like that, where you will have to burst dps, so AP is actually very useful. There are also fights that require one to go out of that wonderful 10m comfort zone, though not many. I'd recommend finding out which you'd prefer based on the situations you'd be thrown into. I personally use AP, as I like the added utility, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suryi Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 When I run as AP, I am about 2 percent better than my guild. When I run as Pyro/Assault, I am 6 percent better. Currently that's about standard. Just curious, what's your PvE gear and how much do you parse as AP on a dummy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bliapis Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 How about skipping "Intimidation" in favour of "Frontline Offence" and "Blaster Augs". Is it a DPS sink or boost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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