More pvp brackets are obviously needed

[sweederland]

The title should make this post's topic abundantly clear.

 

It's been several months since the 50's have been separated from levels 10-49 because of an obvious imbalance.

 

However, it seems hardly justifiable that a bracket exist where characters in their teens are competing against others in their 40's with nearly all their talent points and abilities at their disposal.

 

Perceivable counter-argument argument #1: "L2P. I kill players in their 40's on my (X class) when he is level 14 just fine!"

 

While this may be true for some of us (I was astounded to see how hard my assassin hit with his starter abilities, such as maul) this mentality presents an obvious flaw:

 

Player "A" (10) can kill player "B" (40) despite a level gap of 30. So what happens when player "A" is behind the wheel of a level 40+ character and he is bearing down on an inexperienced level 10? Claiming that you can compete with a wholly incompetent player (or key board turner) despite a 30 level gap does not justify such an immense handicap: in fact, it does not highlight skill at all. But, like most PVP in an MMO setting you've given the new guy an undeserved handicap.

 

Compare it to golf. The guy with years of experience (the level 40) goes head to head with his caddie who has only held a club in his hands for less than a week (level 10). The former player would assume a handicap, taking the current hole from a par 4 to a par 2. This makes the game more competitive, interesting and in turn fun.

 

MMOs on the other hand would have the caddie take a handicap while allowing the man with years of experience to stay at a par 4. Where is the fun or sportsmanship in that? Do you deserve to win simply because you've been doing it longer? Or would a real man acknowledge that winning an unfair fight is no victory at all? And this CERTAINLY translates into the gear grind post level 50. After all: MMO culture insists that playing longer should entitle you to an easier victory over those who have not: and this victory is not derived solely from skill.

 

If you don't want players in their teens pvping with players in their 40s then either remove their ability to Queue up, or create separate brackets. And the same goes for the disparity in post 50 pvp gear: you might be good after logging those hundreds of hours in WZ, but you'll never really know because the guy who might wreck your sh*t quit after realizing he has more important things to do in the real world than participate in an online e-peen stroking contest which costs hundreds of hours to realistically participate in.

 

2L : DR─Add more pre and post 50 brackets. A fair fight is fun: face rolling is for angry children who think an unfair advantage is a good time.

 

Either way it is high time to address this issue (like others before you have failed to do) because an MMO is coming out next month that is already taking progressive strides towards establishing a fair fight.

[Darth-Rammstein]

Not enough people bro, even with consolidated servers it's not in the stars.

[sweederland]

Not enough people bro, even with consolidated servers it's not in the stars.

 

Sad times: when a game's lack of population prohibits innovation then the game is truly dying.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

Nobody really cares about 1-49, it is just a means to an end, levelling to avoid having to do the same pve quests 8 times.

 

What the game actually needs is more Warzones, not more brackets.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ThorgrimLutgen

[sweederland]

Nobody really cares about 1-49, it is just a means to an end, levelling to avoid having to do the same pve quests 8 times.

 

This is why I referred to the post-50 pvp gear grind as well. Don't let the recruit gear fool you: it's an obvious disadvantage, and one that will provide the average PUG or casual player with hundreds of hours of frustration derived from unfair matches.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

This is why I referred to the post-50 pvp gear grind as well. Don't let the recruit gear fool you: it's an obvious disadvantage, and one that will provide the average PUG or casual player with hundreds of hours of frustration derived from unfair matches.

 

In what way ?

 

Recruit gear is a far better concept than the old pre 1.2 method, centurion, champion progression. Grinding for weeks to get 1 BM piece was no fun, now you can have 4 BM pieces the moment you hit 50, using recruit pieces to fill in the gaps, you are infinately more competitive than previously.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ThorgrimLutgen

[sweederland]

In what way ?

 

Recruit gear is a far better concept than the old pre 1.2 method, centurion, champion progression. Grinding for weeks to get 1 BM piece was no fun, now you can have 4 BM pieces the moment you hit 50, using recruit pieces to fill in the gaps, you are infinately more competitive than previously.

 

Being "more competitive" than previous models does not equate to a fair fight. Is it better? Sure it is. Is it balanced? No.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

Being "more competitive" than previous models does not equate to a fair fight. Is it better? Sure it is. Is it balanced? No.

 

People have to start somewhere.

 

Unfortunately MMOs mirror society in general, where people are not prepared to "pay their dues".

 

I want everything and I want it now!!

[sweederland]

People have to start somewhere.

 

Unfortunately MMOs mirror society in general, where people are not prepared to "pay their dues".

 

I want everything and I want it now!!

 

Capitalistic mind sets belong in the real world, not in our form of entertainment. Wanting a fair fight in a video game doesn't merit ridicule.

 

I have no qualm with you if you admit one simple fact: you want an unjustified unfair advantage.

[Natalatalie]

Nobody really cares about 1-49, it is just a means to an end, levelling to avoid having to do the same pve quests 8 times.

 

What the game actually needs is more Warzones, not more brackets.

 

So you're saying Bioware and EA spent 200 million dollars to create content for levels 1-49, and it is all just trivial?

Treating level 50 PvP content as more important and ignoring 1-49 doesn't make for a fun game. Nor does ignoring the discrepancies between a new 50, and a 50 who has grinded out a full set of War Hero because they happened to pick a server where the population didn't plummet for 4 months.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Natalatalie

[sweederland]

People have to start somewhere.

 

Unfortunately MMOs mirror society in general, where people are not prepared to "pay their dues".

 

I want everything and I want it now!!

 

 

And besides, people do start somewhere: level one. Why be sent arbitrarily back to the bottom of the barrel as soon as you hit level 50? Halo doesn't need a carrot on a stick to retain its players, so why do MMOS?

[Lunez]

Technically, a lvl 16 is scaled up to meet the relative strength of a lvl 40+, the only exception being that they lack the skill-tree points, but let's be fair here, you're a lvl 16... you can't expect to be a powerhouse, and the majority of people who pvp at 1-40 are hardcore pvp'ers like me who don't really care about the disadvantage. I like challenge.

[sweederland]

Treating level 50 PvP content as more important and ignoring 1-49 doesn't make for a fun game. Nor does ignoring the discrepancies between a new 50, and a 50 who has grinded out a full set of War Hero because he happened to pick a server where the population didn't plummet for 4 months.

 

I completely agree. But the MMO community has been trained to think that, unless it involves an ungodly grind, it isn't worth playing. And furthermore, that ungodly grind should some how exempt you from having to participate in real competition.

[Natalatalie]

And besides, people do start somewhere: level one. Why be sent arbitrarily back to the bottom of the barrel as soon as you hit level 50? Halo doesn't need a carrot on a stick to retain its players, so why do MMOS?

 

 

Colin Johanson post on the Guild Wars 2 blog summed it up perfectly: http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success#more-8572

I want an MMO constructed around fun, like Sweederlands example of Halo. Not something that has been influnced by capitalism's dirtys fingers and force me to slave away at yet another mindless task to finally get where I want to be. I really wanted SWTOR to be that MMO

[sweederland]

Technically, a lvl 16 is scaled up to meet the relative strength of a lvl 40+, the only exception being that they lack the skill-tree points, but let's be fair here, you're a lvl 16... you can't expect to be a powerhouse, and the majority of people who pvp at 1-40 are hardcore pvp'ers like me who don't really care about the disadvantage. I like challenge.

 

If liking a challenge validates the scenario then why rob the level 49s from the same pleasure? Besides, you fit player "A" in my first analogy.

 

And its more than just talent points: why should one marauder have "vanish" while the other doesn't? Unless of course you admit to wanting an unfair advantage.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

Capitalistic mind sets belong in the real world, not in our form of entertainment. Wanting a fair fight in a video game doesn't merit ridicule.

 

I have no qualm with you if you admit one simple fact: you want an unjustified unfair advantage.

 

What you are essentially asking for is a Call of Duty style Shoot em up game, where all things are equal and player reactions/ skill, better quality mouse, faster internet speeds, play a part in being successful.

 

This is an MMO. Progression, whether it be via inherant class skills, gear, titles or any one of a thousand other shiny things dictate to some people, their skill.

 

In an MMO not everthing can be fully balanced, there has to be differentiation between classes, levels, skills groups etc, otherwise we might as well all play the same class.

 

I actually am failing to grasp your point about recruit gear, I have no trouble on my mainly recruit geared shadow. I do what I need to in order to help win games. Yes, she dies like crazy if she ends up 1 to 1 with a full WH geared Sniper, but so what? PVP is not about winning 1 v 1, it is about being useful for your team.

 

i will also state again, you can have 4 BM peices the moment you hit 50, add to them recruit bits and you have around 900 expertise, more than enough to be useful.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ThorgrimLutgen

[troyh]

So.. if level and gear shouldn't matter in pvp can we make EC bolster our gear and stats for my level 12. I would love to clear that without having to work hard leveling or gearing up. Shouldn't it just be about skill? PVP is no different then PVE. Everyone talks about skill.. well let me tell you. I could dress you up in all the war hero gear in the game and you still won't beat me. Its not just my gear but the hundreds of hours it took to get while perfecting my class.

 

If you want to play a game that doesn't have a gear grind then maybe you should play Unreal Tournament.

 

2L:DR; These posts are so dumb. The OP should be playing Unreal Tournament, not an MMO or any modern FPS.

[Natalatalie]

Technically, a lvl 16 is scaled up to meet the relative strength of a lvl 40+, the only exception being that they lack the skill-tree points, but let's be fair here, you're a lvl 16... you can't expect to be a powerhouse, and the majority of people who pvp at 1-40 are hardcore pvp'ers like me who don't really care about the disadvantage. I like challenge.

 

I really respect that, I think a challenge is infintey more fun then facerolling. But why make a game challeneging by denying players 65% of thier class mechanics? Of course scaling helps a somewhat, but why handicap me? And why shouldn't I be as much of a powerhouse as the 40? Why does he get to 100 to 40 me because he happened to be playing longer? Does everyone really think that time invested grinding should be rewarded? Why not skill?

 

Lunez do you think that a skilled level 16 player should be handicapped just because they haven't put in the 30 hours that the 40 has?

[dronepilot]

This is why I referred to the post-50 pvp gear grind as well. Don't let the recruit gear fool you: it's an obvious disadvantage, and one that will provide the average PUG or casual player with hundreds of hours of frustration derived from unfair matches.

 

I'm sorry you don't enjoy the grind towards earning better gear. As I also said in another thread similar to this, the recruit gear is actually 'better' than the gear I began with as a fresh 50 back in January. I had to grind for Centurion then champion gear. Your basically saying, give us Battlemaster or war hero gear now "for nothing" !! don't make us work for it, because its boring, and I don't like being face rolled by better geared players, who have legitimately earned the right to have their gear.

 

Unfortunately Bioware eventually listens to people like you, and gives you what you want, while the rest of us feel ripped off then for the thousands of hours of game play we grinded to get to War Hero, conquer and Warlord.

 

No, more brackets will hurt the game further, we don't have enough players for a filtered system like that, I seriously think you guys should stop complaining, and actually spend this time, not here on the forum moaning about WZ's but actually playing them, sooner you get your WZ tokens and better gear, the more happy you will be.

 

Really sorry if I offend people, but seriously, I have been around since early access, and have taken some real beatings in War zones, but at the end of it, when you actually get the gear you wanted, you feel you earned that gear. Your not entitled to wear any gear, you have to earn the right to wear it. That was ofc, until they gave you recruit gear for nothing almost, just at the cost of some credits.

[sweederland]

What you are essentially asking for is a Call of Duty style Shoot em up game, where all things are equal and player skill, better quality mouse, faster internet speeds, play a part in being successful .

 

Now you're starting to understand. Why are MMOs exempt from having to provide balance? Does some letter in the MMORPG acronym dictate this? Does some letter stand for "mindless grind to overcome and unfair advantage"?

 

It's also funny that you reference the one class to take heavy nerfs in 1.3 as being a valid example for recruit gears own viability.

 

It's a simple conclusion: MMO's do not, and will not, hold a respectable place in the competitive gaming circuit because it is a system with a broken handicap system where those who grind hundreds of hours are rewarded and skill, as you stated above, is a secondary consideration.

[sweederland]

I'm sorry you don't enjoy the grind towards earning better gear. As I also said in another thread similar to this, the recruit gear is actually 'better' than the gear I began with as a fresh 50 back in January. I had to grind for Centurion then champion gear. Your basically saying, give us Battlemaster or war hero gear now "for nothing" !! :

 

You have no idea when I started playing or for what gear I worked towards. Desperation is a stinky perfume: fortunately Bioware may very well listen to people "like us."

 

And what is "legitimately earned" even mean? Is there a ranking system? Does someone who has no idea how to play not eventually end up in the same gear as one of us should they decide to lose enough games?

 

Legitimately we earned nothing but an unfair fight. There is nothing fun about that, there is nothing desirable about that unless you say these words and embrace them: I dislike fair fights, I want to win because I want to win. Not because I am good, not because I have skill, but because I like to pick on the inexperienced.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

I really respect that, I think a challenge is infintey more fun then facerolling. But why make a game challeneging by denying players 65% of thier class mechanics? Of course scaling helps a somewhat, but why handicap me? And why shouldn't I be as much of a powerhouse as the 40? Why does he get to 100 to 40 me because he happened to be playing longer? Does everyone really think that time invested grinding should be rewarded? Why not skill?

 

Lunez do you think that a skilled level 16 player should be handicapped just because they haven't put in the 30 hours that the 40 has?

 

 

Absolutely. We all have low level characters and high level characters. Besides my L50's, my highest toon is L32 now, and is by your reckoning disadvantaged. I also play my L17 Sawbones, she dies all the time, she is easy to kill, but I accept that and know that at some point, she will have the upperhand due to her skill tree etc developing.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ThorgrimLutgen

[Natalatalie]

To ThorgrimLutgen & Toryh:

 

Why exactly does an MMO have to fit those standards? Don't genres progress and get better? I don't understand why everyone wants to spend so long living with a handicap and not being on a gear chase. There are no rules anywhere that say if a game doesn't have a gear chase it is no longer an MMO (GW2). It is outdated, boring and needs to be discarded.

Of course learning to play your class and getting good at it over time should be rewarded. And it is when you are in a balanced fight. But why reward someone who spent that time getting gear and not learning how to play (and those things are NOT one in the same).

[sweederland]

So.. if level and gear shouldn't matter in pvp can we make EC bolster our gear and stats for my level 12. I would love to clear that without having to work hard leveling or gearing up. Shouldn't it just be about skill? PVP is no different then PVE. Everyone talks about skill.. well let me tell you. I could dress you up in all the war hero gear in the game and you still won't beat me. Its not just my gear but the hundreds of hours it took to get while perfecting my class.

 

If this is the case then why hide behind your clearly advantageous gear? Why aren't aesthetic increases enough for you?

[ThorgrimLutgen]

To ThorgrimLutgen & Toryh:

 

Why exactly does an MMO have to fit those standards? Don't genres progress and get better? I don't understand why everyone wants to spend so long living with a handicap and not being on a gear chase. There are no rules anywhere that say if a game doesn't have a gear chase it is no longer an MMO (GW2). It is outdated, boring and needs to be discarded.

Of course learning to play your class and getting good at it over time should be rewarded. And it is when you are in a balanced fight. But why reward someone who spent that time getting gear and not learning how to play (and those things are NOT one in the same).

 

So essentially you are saying that you want all classes, players to be the same ? If not, that is certainly how you and others are coming across. FPS time again I think.