Outraged! - chapter 2 spoilers right after Taris...

[Mutive]

 

 

It wasn't Kothe that was the problem - he had the whole stupid-Jedi vibe going on that implied that he would be above really messing with her. Chance was a gentleman about it. It was the thought of working under Hunter that terrified me. By the time you left that meeting you already knew he was a sadistic sob and was going to enjoy 'playing' with you. If not for his secret, what would he have done to her? I shudder to think. And what's worse? I really want to know.

 

 

It's not just Hunter's secret. It's you getting over the mind control. The implication of that scene (to me anyway) was that if you hadn't broken free, Hunter would have gone about her dastardly plan. Although I'm curious as to how she thought this would work. I can just imagine:

 

Agent: *wakes up feeling awful, sees a pretty blonde lady sitting somewhere near by* Who are you?

Hunter: Hunter

Agent: I remember Hunter looking somewhat different.

Hunter: Yeah, Old Man on Tatooine, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Agent: I guess I can buy that. So why am I here?

Hunter: Well, you see I have these fun little plans for you. I've kind of had this crazy crush on you for ages, and now you're finally in my control. We're going to have so much fun!

Agent: Huh. That's a bit disturbing. Then again, you are pretty cute. I'm pretty much putty in the hands of women, as my encounters with pretty much every woman I run into proves.

Hunter: ...I was sort of expecting you to look slightly more disturbed by that.

Agent: I can pretend, if that's your thing.

Hunter: ....I think you're even crazier than I am.

 

Okay, it probably would have been a lot more disturbing than that. But I almost got the feeling that Hunter wanted to *make* you love her. But I'm not really sure that you can *make* someone love you. Force the agent to do terrible, awful, sickening things. Yes. But love, perhaps not. IDK. I really think that this was something she hadn't thought through all the way. Like, she has a fantasy regarding you. But at some level, she probably knows that it's not going to happen quite in the way she wants.

 

 

 

[Celacia]

I find it hard to say that Hunter is suddenly no longer Hunter at the bitter end. Yes, you realize that there's a facet to the character that is doubting and perhaps even self hating. But in many ways, that makes me like the character better. I have a hard time buying that someone as bright as Hunter seems to be doesn't - at least to some extent - question what she's doing and realize that some of it is pretty terrible stuff.

I am sure that he did question it - but I am also fairly certain that he didn't really start to until the agent started chasing him down. Before that, he had never had anyone who was not a part of the Star Cabal and its culture in which he had grown up that he could consider an equal, and thus he never really had any reason to take a hard look at what he was doing - or at how much it had cost him - or at the fact that it had actually cost anyone else. It's his interactions with the agent that force him to become aware of his humanity (which has a nice echo in the Vector romance, where his interactions with the agent cause him to want to reclaim some of his own humanity).

[bright_ephemera]

I am sure that he did question it - but I am also fairly certain that he didn't really start to until the agent started chasing him down...

 

...It's his interactions with the agent that force him to become aware of his humanity

 

Now there's an interesting idea. I'll have to review my Agent recordings to see if that fits well...because it honestly didn't occur to me at the time. And would make the story even better.

[ekimmak]

I think it is in an Act 2 scene for Jadus supporters that you get even more horrifying details about how Jadus treated Zhorrid. There's a whole story about singing lessons that I didn't trigger in my own playthrough, but I've heard the rumors.

 

 

 

Actually, I just was respectful to Zhorrid, and she told me about those lessons herself in act 1. I don't think you have to support Jadus to get them, and I'm glad. When I heard about that... I knew he was going down.

 

[Celacia]

It's not just Hunter's secret. It's you getting over the mind control. The implication of that scene (to me anyway) was that if you hadn't broken free, Hunter would have gone about her dastardly plan. Although I'm curious as to how she thought this would work.

I was thinking even earlier than that, to be honest. Hoth, perhaps. Before you even know he had plans *shudder* for you. Would he have stayed away and only seen you in person at the end of that mission if he wasn't afraid that physical contact would let the cat out of the bag? What would have happened then if there was no cat to let out?

I can just imagine:

 

Agent: *wakes up feeling awful, sees a pretty blonde lady sitting somewhere near by* Who are you?

Hunter: Hunter

Agent: I remember Hunter looking somewhat different.

Hunter: Yeah, Old Man on Tatooine, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Agent: I guess I can buy that. So why am I here?

Hunter: Well, you see I have these fun little plans for you. I've kind of had this crazy crush on you for ages, and now you're finally in my control. We're going to have so much fun!

Agent: Huh. That's a bit disturbing. Then again, you are pretty cute. I'm pretty much putty in the hands of women, as my encounters with pretty much every woman I run into proves.

Hunter: ...I was sort of expecting you to look slightly more disturbed by that.

Agent: I can pretend, if that's your thing.

Hunter: ....I think you're even crazier than I am.

 

It's probably wrong, but that made me laugh. I don't think Livia would have been quite so blase about it though, before the mind control she was putty in exactly no-one's hands. I don't think Hunter's reveal would have made a huge difference to her there either though, just as it didn't at the end. She might have been a little relieved - at first anyway.

Okay, it probably would have been a lot more disturbing than that. But I almost got the feeling that Hunter wanted to *make* you love her. But I'm not really sure that you can *make* someone love you. Force the agent to do terrible, awful, sickening things. Yes. But love, perhaps not. IDK. I really think that this was something she hadn't thought through all the way. Like, she has a fantasy regarding you. But at some level, she probably knows that it's not going to happen quite in the way she wants.

Yes! That was the feeling that I got too. I think the only reason that Hunter didn't just try using the codeword and ordering her to love him was that he had enough sense to know that it wouldn't work - and that the facade that it might result in (at best) would not be enough. (I don't know, though, if he would have really been able to tell the difference. After all, what experience had he had of love in his life? So it might just have been because he didn't think it would work.) But by making the agent play along with whatever he desired at all times maybe there would be a chance that she would forget that it was all a sham, something forced on her, something that she hated, and then she might love him on her own. I don't think it would have worked, because I don't know if he could have gotten over how much he enjoyed rubbing her face in the fact that he could control her.

 

 

[Celacia]

Actually, I just was respectful to Zhorrid, and she told me about those lessons herself in act 1. I don't think you have to support Jadus to get them, and I'm glad. When I heard about that... I knew he was going down.

Yeah, that was what sealed it for me. Monster.

[bright_ephemera]

I have to ask...of the people who felt that intense dynamic with Hunter, how many of you were playing female Agents? As a male Agent I resented the smug know-it-all who liked asserting his power just because he could. There was no pull to go with the push. And as if his attitude weren't bad enough, he made me look like a gentleman around women. Just...ugh. Ugh.

He went from a bully to a complete sadist: "We could've wandered the galaxy together - me as the captain, you as my servant." And then, when he kicked off the real killing at Isen Four, "I tried to behave for the SIS - but for you and me? Let's be bad." Nothing good there, nothing with a personal appeal. I just had to keep talking until he was in reach.

 

Throughout Act 3 our conversations alternated between sardonic affection and blunt threats. I wasn't kidding myself with the former. I sure hope he wasn't, either.

 

[Kalterien]

I have to ask...of the people who felt that intense dynamic with Hunter, how many of you were playing female Agents? As a male Agent I resented the smug know-it-all who liked asserting his power just because he could. There was no pull to go with the push. And as if his attitude weren't bad enough, he made me look like a gentleman around women. Just...ugh. Ugh.

He went from a bully to a complete sadist: "We could've wandered the galaxy together - me as the captain, you as my servant." And then, when he kicked off the real killing at Isen Four, "I tried to behave for the SIS - but for you and me? Let's be bad." Nothing good there, nothing with a personal appeal. I just had to keep talking until he was in reach.

 

Throughout Act 3 our conversations alternated between sardonic affection and blunt threats. I wasn't kidding myself with the former. I sure hope he wasn't, either.

 

Weird, I got fairly "civil" interactions with Hunter with my male IA. Granted I am relying on memory, since I didn't actually record most of the early part of the IA story. I think my husband's going to be suspicious about the one folder that's taken up almost half of a 2TB external hard drive.

[Celacia]

I have to ask...of the people who felt that intense dynamic with Hunter, how many of you were playing female Agents? As a male Agent I resented the smug know-it-all who liked asserting his power just because he could. There was no pull to go with the push. And as if his attitude weren't bad enough, he made me look like a gentleman around women. Just...ugh. Ugh.

He went from a bully to a complete sadist: "We could've wandered the galaxy together - me as the captain, you as my servant." And then, when he kicked off the real killing at Isen Four, "I tried to behave for the SIS - but for you and me? Let's be bad." Nothing good there, nothing with a personal appeal. I just had to keep talking until he was in reach.

 

Throughout Act 3 our conversations alternated between sardonic affection and blunt threats. I wasn't kidding myself with the former. I sure hope he wasn't, either.

I was.

It would have worked for me almost as well if he had been presenting as a woman from the start too, though, if that is what you are wondering.

 

Edit: I am pretty sure he was at least somewhat flirty with my husband's male agent, too.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Celacia

[ekimmak]

Yeah, that was what sealed it for me. Monster.

 

 

I also wanted to recruit her as a companion. Sure, it doesn't make sense that a lowly imperial agent have someone much higher rank than the player character on their ship, but it could be fun and interesting. Like having her shock the agent everytime they lose affection with her, kind of a reverse of the inquisitors and warriors. Problem is, I think it's possible for some agents to kill her, so it wouldn't make sense write her into the team now.

 

[Mutive]

I am sure that he did question it - but I am also fairly certain that he didn't really start to until the agent started chasing him down. Before that, he had never had anyone who was not a part of the Star Cabal and its culture in which he had grown up that he could consider an equal, and thus he never really had any reason to take a hard look at what he was doing - or at how much it had cost him - or at the fact that it had actually cost anyone else. It's his interactions with the agent that force him to become aware of his humanity (which has a nice echo in the Vector romance, where his interactions with the agent cause him to want to reclaim some of his own humanity).

 

 

I'm not sure if it's the agent, or something that's always been there. There are some lines in the Watcher X letters that imply that Watcher 2 wasn't always the docile little puppet of the Sith. Assuming that similar conditioning was done to Hunter (just it probably started later so wasn't quite as thorough), it's entirely possible that Hunter *always* sort of questioned what was going on. Just never really had any ability to escape. (Just like you probably have questioned what's going on with the Empire...but have a limited ability to make any real change.) It's kind of this sad, hamster wheel of tragedy. Everyone knows that the current situation is @#$#ed up, but no one can really do much of anything about it. (Of course, with that said, you know so little about most of the characters that...yeah, who knows.)

 

It does seem possible, though, that the agent is the wake up call, if you will.

 

 

[Mutive]

I

Yes! That was the feeling that I got too. I think the only reason that Hunter didn't just try using the codeword and ordering her to love him was that he had enough sense to know that it wouldn't work - and that the facade that it might result in (at best) would not be enough. (I don't know, though, if he would have really been able to tell the difference. After all, what experience had he had of love in his life? So it might just have been because he didn't think it would work.) But by making the agent play along with whatever he desired at all times maybe there would be a chance that she would forget that it was all a sham, something forced on her, something that she hated, and then she might love him on her own. I don't think it would have worked, because I don't know if he could have gotten over how much he enjoyed rubbing her face in the fact that he could control her.

 

 

 

Yeah, I could see Hunter trying to get what she wanted (probably love, such as it is, with the agent) with the hope that the fascimilie would eventually turn into something real. But what's sad is that I highly suspect that Hunter is perceptive enough to know that whatever she had was just the simulacrum of love...which would mean that even if the agent *did* end up loving her, she'd probably still be miserable. It would be a horrible situation that I highly suspect would destroy them both. I honestly don't think that there are any happy endings with Agent/Hunter.

 

[Mutive]

I have to ask...of the people who felt that intense dynamic with Hunter, how many of you were playing female Agents? As a male Agent I resented the smug know-it-all who liked asserting his power just because he could. There was no pull to go with the push. And as if his attitude weren't bad enough, he made me look like a gentleman around women. Just...ugh. Ugh.

 

 

I've played both. (Actually, am 100% through female, about 67% through male.)

 

I think it actually is *worse* as a female agent. The lines are pretty much identical, about 95% of the time. So Hunter is as charming/evil/bullying/friendly/whatever to either gender, depending on the dialogue options.

 

The biggest difference is in perception. I'm going to note that sexual assault is something that pretty much every woman realizes is a fairly likely to happen at some point in her life. (As something like 30% of women have experienced it, so it's kind of naive to think that this is a remote possibility.) So having a male character threaten a female character with something that sounds an awful lot like that is...probably somewhat *more* terrifying and triggering than the reverse, just as the alternate doesn't happen as often to the best of my knowledge.

 

Plus, the game sets it up so that as a female character you *can* flirt with Hunter from the time you meet him. (One of my friends actually looked him up to see if he was a romancable companion. I kid you not. She was highly disappointed that she could not hit that, at least until she got to know Hunter a bit better and was like, "I want to blow his head off!!!!") So as a female character, you end up flirting with this guy who doesn't seem to care at all about you...just to suddenly want to do terrible things to you as soon as he makes it so you can't consent to them. (Which is utterly creepy. You're like "I would have done what you wanted...but you didn't want me as long as I was capable of consent." I honestly think that the whole Hunter thing plays out *so* much more disturbingly when you're playing a female agent. Sure it's creepy as a male agent, but...less so.

 

[bright_ephemera]

I've played both. (Actually, am 100% through female, about 67% through male.)

 

I think it actually is *worse* as a female agent. The lines are pretty much identical, about 95% of the time. So Hunter is as charming/evil/bullying/friendly/whatever to either gender, depending on the dialogue options.

 

The biggest difference is in perception. I'm going to note that sexual assault is something that pretty much every woman realizes is a fairly likely to happen at some point in her life. (As something like 30% of women have experienced it, so it's kind of naive to think that this is a remote possibility.) So having a male character threaten a female character with something that sounds an awful lot like that is...probably somewhat *more* terrifying and triggering than the reverse, just as the alternate doesn't happen as often to the best of my knowledge.

 

Plus, the game sets it up so that as a female character you *can* flirt with Hunter from the time you meet him. (One of my friends actually looked him up to see if he was a romancable companion. I kid you not. She was highly disappointed that she could not hit that, at least until she got to know Hunter a bit better and was like, "I want to blow his head off!!!!") So as a female character, you end up flirting with this guy who doesn't seem to care at all about you...just to suddenly want to do terrible things to you as soon as he makes it so you can't consent to them. (Which is utterly creepy. You're like "I would have done what you wanted...but you didn't want me as long as I was capable of consent." I honestly think that the whole Hunter thing plays out *so* much more disturbingly when you're playing a female agent. Sure it's creepy as a male agent, but...less so.

 

Wow. Great to know about the [Flirt] options. I agree 100% with what you've written...I'm female IRL, but I play characters of both genders.

I could see the [Flirt] setting up an unhealthy-attraction dynamic - flirting with pure poison isn't a new phenomenon - so I can imagine some female Agents might feel drawn to Hunter. But at the same time, the power dynamic gets way, way worse than a male Agent has to deal with.

 

(This is not to say that male-on-male abuse doesn't happen. Here I'm using pronouns to match the usual direction of that power differential. Physical coercion is far from theoretical for many of us women.)

 

Me, I was just a guy. I hated Hunter, he hated me, but at worst we would kill each other. Hearing the way Hunter talked about Ensign Temple and other women...it was sometime around Hoth he announced that he thought Kothe was too restrained with the codeword and Hunter himself intended to use it more. And I thought, wow, as uncomfortable as I was with Ardun Kothe forcing me into things on Nar Shaddaa, at least I knew where he would stop. Hunter...if my character were female, I would be dying of panic right around then.

 

So I think there's a lot of room for depth in either direction - fascination and horror - when Hunter presents as male and the Agent character is female. Playing my male agent, I only had to worry about getting killed. Perhaps a shallower relationship overall, but, uh, I'm willing to live with that.

 

[Celacia]

Yeah, I could see Hunter trying to get what she wanted (probably love, such as it is, with the agent) with the hope that the fascimilie would eventually turn into something real. But what's sad is that I highly suspect that Hunter is perceptive enough to know that whatever she had was just the simulacrum of love...which would mean that even if the agent *did* end up loving her, she'd probably still be miserable. It would be a horrible situation that I highly suspect would destroy them both. I honestly don't think that there are any happy endings with Agent/Hunter.

No, I believe you're right - it would have been a disaster. It would have destroyed Livia had Hunter taken her then, and it would have destroyed her had she been able to run off with Hunter at the end. She would have done it anyway though. It wouldn't have worked out. It couldn't have worked. It would have been awful. It would have been glorious.

I think it actually is *worse* as a female agent. The lines are pretty much identical, about 95% of the time. So Hunter is as charming/evil/bullying/friendly/whatever to either gender, depending on the dialogue options.

 

The biggest difference is in perception. I'm going to note that sexual assault is something that pretty much every woman realizes is a fairly likely to happen at some point in her life. (As something like 30% of women have experienced it, so it's kind of naive to think that this is a remote possibility.) So having a male character threaten a female character with something that sounds an awful lot like that is...probably somewhat *more* terrifying and triggering than the reverse, just as the alternate doesn't happen as often to the best of my knowledge.

 

Plus, the game sets it up so that as a female character you *can* flirt with Hunter from the time you meet him. (One of my friends actually looked him up to see if he was a romancable companion. I kid you not. She was highly disappointed that she could not hit that, at least until she got to know Hunter a bit better and was like, "I want to blow his head off!!!!") So as a female character, you end up flirting with this guy who doesn't seem to care at all about you...just to suddenly want to do terrible things to you as soon as he makes it so you can't consent to them. (Which is utterly creepy. You're like "I would have done what you wanted...but you didn't want me as long as I was capable of consent." I honestly think that the whole Hunter thing plays out *so* much more disturbingly when you're playing a female agent. Sure it's creepy as a male agent, but...less so.

Yeah, I was kind of like your friend, to be honest. I love that face.

Here's the thing, I think (for me at least). The flirtation, the mind control, the possibility of sexual assault, the odd flashes of vulnerability, and attempts at genuine feeling all combine to give the relationship with Hunter the sense of trying to walk on a razor's edge - that heady combination of excitement, exhilaration, sex, and terror that the best f-ed up disastrous relationships with crazy dangerous people have. There is nothing healthy about it, and it is going to end badly at the very least and yet... moth meet flame.

 

[Celacia]

I could see the [Flirt] setting up an unhealthy-attraction dynamic - flirting with pure poison isn't a new phenomenon - so I can imagine some female Agents might feel drawn to Hunter. But at the same time, the power dynamic gets way, way worse than a male Agent has to deal with.

...

Me, I was just a guy. I hated Hunter, he hated me, but at worst we would kill each other. Hearing the way Hunter talked about Ensign Temple and other women...it was sometime around Hoth he announced that he thought Kothe was too restrained with the codeword and Hunter himself intended to use it more. And I thought, wow, as uncomfortable as I was with Ardun Kothe forcing me into things on Nar Shaddaa, at least I knew where he would stop. Hunter...if my character were female, I would be dying of panic right around then.

Oh, yes. There was panic. Especially when my imagination got away from me. (And I think it was around that time that I spoiled Hunter's secret for myself, and it made no difference. The dynamic was already in place.)

So I think there's a lot of room for depth in either direction - fascination and horror - when Hunter presents as male and the Agent character is female. Playing my male agent, I only had to worry about getting killed. Perhaps a shallower relationship overall, but, uh, I'm willing to live with that.

I think really the issue is that (for me at least) it's not so much an 'in either direction' as in both at the same time, and that is where the attraction lies: Hunter is both fascinating and terrifying in equal amounts.

 

Edited May 24, 2012 by Celacia

[Mutive]

Wow. Great to know about the [Flirt] options. I agree 100% with what you've written...I'm female IRL, but I play characters of both genders.

I could see the [Flirt] setting up an unhealthy-attraction dynamic - flirting with pure poison isn't a new phenomenon - so I can imagine some female Agents might feel drawn to Hunter. But at the same time, the power dynamic gets way, way worse than a male Agent has to deal with.

 

Yeah, there isn't a huge amount of flirting as Hunter shuts you down fairly fast. But still, you can do it. And it's more than a bit annoying to be like, "Why is he ignoring me? He's hitting on everything else with a pulse. Why is EVERY OTHER WOMAN IN THE GAME GOOD ENOUGH BUT NOT ME."

 

(This is not to say that male-on-male abuse doesn't happen. Here I'm using pronouns to match the usual direction of that power differential. Physical coercion is far from theoretical for many of us women.)

 

Me, I was just a guy. I hated Hunter, he hated me, but at worst we would kill each other. Hearing the way Hunter talked about Ensign Temple and other women...it was sometime around Hoth he announced that he thought Kothe was too restrained with the codeword and Hunter himself intended to use it more. And I thought, wow, as uncomfortable as I was with Ardun Kothe forcing me into things on Nar Shaddaa, at least I knew where he would stop. Hunter...if my character were female, I would be dying of panic right around then.

 

So I think there's a lot of room for depth in either direction - fascination and horror - when Hunter presents as male and the Agent character is female. Playing my male agent, I only had to worry about getting killed. Perhaps a shallower relationship overall, but, uh, I'm willing to live with that.

 

 

Yeah, Hunter is really sick. But again, the way the power dynamics are presented with a female agent...and the way they're comparable to real world power dynamics...the whole thing feels really sick. Again, not that men can't (and don't) abuse men. It just seems to be statistically smaller (and something that I think is less nightmare fuel-ish for your average man, for better or worse). While (as presented with a female agent), the whole scenario feels frighteningly close to something that you might see in the real world that is sadly far too common.

 

I actually found it really interesting that, ultimately, the game really turns the tables on male agents in the end. Ultimately, here you've (potentially) been like, "Hah hah hah, this guy is hitting on me, but only because he was written to terrify the female agents and...what? What? OMG...Hunter wants to do what with me?" It's kind of interesting to see the dynamic turned on its head.

 

[Mutive]

No, I believe you're right - it would have been a disaster. It would have destroyed Livia had Hunter taken her then, and it would have destroyed her had she been able to run off with Hunter at the end. She would have done it anyway though. It wouldn't have worked out. It couldn't have worked. It would have been awful. It would have been glorious.

 

 

Yeah, the whole relationship had mutual self-destruction written all over it. But like your agent, mine would have gone for it. They would have died in each other's arms. With that said, I strongly felt like the agent's story was *about* self-destruction. So in its own way, it was perfect. I sort of wonder whether, if the game wasn't an MMO, whether you'd have been allowed to join with Hunter, watch Corellia burn, and die there with your lover.

 

 

 

Yeah, I was kind of like your friend, to be honest. I love that face.

Here's the thing, I think (for me at least). The flirtation, the mind control, the possibility of sexual assault, the odd flashes of vulnerability, and attempts at genuine feeling all combine to give the relationship with Hunter the sense of trying to walk on a razor's edge - that heady combination of excitement, exhilaration, sex, and terror that the best f-ed up disastrous relationships with crazy dangerous people have. There is nothing healthy about it, and it is going to end badly at the very least and yet... moth meet flame.

 

I'm okay with Hunter's looks, but honestly, it's the wit that gets me. The character gets the best lines in the game.

Flirting with Hunter was so perfectly dysfunctional. I mean, every last relationship in the game you have is controlling, abusive and terrible. (I mean, Watcher Two is loved. But she starts off your relationship by calling you a "dirty alien", and manages to improve upon it by sending you into torture...not to mention a lot of scenarios in which you'll probably die. Kaliyo is pretty abusive and the relationship is a complete trainwreck. Temple's thing with her father has me convinced that I'm next. Vector is okay, but I almost feel like he's an anomaly.) Hunter is almost the crystallization of that - the abusive, horrible, pleasure mixed with pain, fantasies twisted in with nightmares until you can't distinguish one from the other - relationship. As such it's perfect. I almost feel sorry for people who didn't let their characters throw themselves at Hunter. (Mine felt like she really, *really* wanted to, which is the only reason I broke down and let her.) I honestly think that it's one of the best (and worst) parts of the class - and probably in most ways the definitive relationship.

 

[Celacia]

I'm okay with Hunter's looks, but honestly, it's the wit that gets me. The character gets the best lines in the game.

Oh, yes. But Livia was throwing herself at him from the moment she saw him. Before he had even opened that damned mouth of his.

Flirting with Hunter was so perfectly dysfunctional. I mean, every last relationship in the game you have is controlling, abusive and terrible. (I mean, Watcher Two is loved. But she starts off your relationship by calling you a "dirty alien", and manages to improve upon it by sending you into torture...not to mention a lot of scenarios in which you'll probably die. Kaliyo is pretty abusive and the relationship is a complete trainwreck. Temple's thing with her father has me convinced that I'm next. Vector is okay, but I almost feel like he's an anomaly.) Hunter is almost the crystallization of that - the abusive, horrible, pleasure mixed with pain, fantasies twisted in with nightmares until you can't distinguish one from the other - relationship. As such it's perfect. I almost feel sorry for people who didn't let their characters throw themselves at Hunter. (Mine felt like she really, *really* wanted to, which is the only reason I broke down and let her.) I honestly think that it's one of the best (and worst) parts of the class - and probably in most ways the definitive relationship.

I think Vector is supposed to be an anomaly - he is there to be the agent's anchor. He is there to give her something to hold on to so that she at least has a chance not to get sucked down into that vortex of madness, destruction, and death that is hungrily pulling at her for pretty much the entire plot line, from that meeting in Jadus' office right on through till the end. His tragedy (perhaps) is that it still wasn't quite enough.

[Acherom]

It bothered me, but less than a huge portion of the plot. In many ways, I was honestly more disturbed by the fact that Watcher 2/Keeper so callously ordered me to be tortured than the torture itself. (There's something pretty ghastly about that - like, she knew what would happen but just didn't care as long as it got her what she wanted. I like W2, but man is that ruthless...) As you said, the character has been pretty badly tortured prior to this. In many ways, what upset me more is that people who are supposedly on my side are totally cool with this happening to me.

 

Which is precisley why I honestly expected something along the lines of:

 

 

 

Watcher2: "I was monitoring your life signs while we were out of contact... I'm so very disappointed I didn't get to hear the sweet sound of it flat-lining... uh? Oh... must be the meds, I mean I'm glad you're alive, and I'm glad you won."

 

In one of the last scenes when you and your crew return to the Tenebrus. I got the feeling that she desperately was trying to erase my agent. (Probably because we hooked up at the end of Ch 1) Really I could have kept the whole dynamic with her going and forgone another relationship if she hadn't kept slowly delving into that trying-to-get-you-killed side. (Note she didn't actually say anything relating to being disappointed about me not dieing; it was just heavily implied in her tone.)

 

At the beginning I really did like watcher 2. We had this whole dashing upstart field agent, and professional ranking veteran officer who flirt back and forth thing going. Looking back; I let her opinion shape a lot of my early decisions because Kol was seeking her favor. It wasn't until the Jadeus thing where I think we started falling apart. She kept feeding me lines about people will be lost; but we'll stop him in the long run... and I flat out told her to take that off the table because it simply wasn't an option. It was almost like she was fine with stringing me along; as long as I played specifically to her instructions. Disobey one? Well now I have to figure out a way to make sure that never happens again...

 

 

 

And to re-open the Hunter thing:

 

 

I believe both characters; the Agent and Hunter are just actors. Like mentioned before; they are playing their parts, and following the script. However; I think the Agent was less of a flat actor, and more of a ... "That's a nice mask I can wear; but I'm still always going to try and stay me." where as I believe hunter fell into: "Its all I've ever been, so Hunter is me.".

 

The agent spends the latter half of the story trying to escape their role; where I believe Hunter is trying to desperately cling to it because she's come to the realization that she doesn't know what she is behind the role.

I've done a bit of stage play myself; its quite easy to build an image that isn't me and play it as if it was. But wow I don't know how I would deal with not having a "Me." to fall back on once the masks are taken off. And as briefly touched on in a past post: I don't think Hunter has ever come across a situation where the Mask was questioned to the point of it failing; leaving the "Me." that wasn't there exposed.

 

 

Just my own opinion; as ramble-ish as it may be. I'm quite interested in how the perception of these characters can change so much between playing the male / female agent. Mark of quality in my book.

[bright_ephemera]

Reviewing the whole thread here over lunch, because I'm really enjoying this, especially the explosion of Hunter-talk.

 

Hunter was definitely a construct, but so is Cipher Nine. I found it interesting that she seems to remove the disguise at the end in large part to attempt to talk to you as two real people, rather than as two actors in a play.

This really got to me.

Now that I look at it, of course Cipher Nine is a construct. I used to talk about that identity with Vector. But at the same time, coming in as a player, Cipher Nine is all I've ever known. I didn't live the backstory in my head, I just sketched it in after the fact. I don't know how to not be Cipher Nine, and so every attempt Hunter made to connect with me as a person was doomed to fall flat. I denied his personhood because I had always denied my own personhood. I think he understood that better than I did in the end. "It's gonna be hell without me"? Maybe, with nobody else to so much as try to reach me, maybe it will be.

 

(I suspect this "all I've ever known" feeling was not an accident. The Agent's writers, more than any class I've played, use elements from beyond the fourth wall to mess with the player's mind and enrich the story. It's one of the reasons I love it.)

 

 

It bothered me, but less than a huge portion of the plot. In many ways, I was honestly more disturbed by the fact that Watcher 2/Keeper so callously ordered me to be tortured than the torture itself. (There's something pretty ghastly about that - like, she knew what would happen but just didn't care as long as it got her what she wanted. I like W2, but man is that ruthless...) As you said, the character has been pretty badly tortured prior to this. In many ways, what upset me more is that people who are supposedly on my side are totally cool with this happening to me.

 

 

And this forces me to wonder about any future Intelligence operations. The Minister was remarkable for protecting his people where he could. They had ugly jobs, but he went out of his way to see that his agents were all right. Watcher Two...doesn't. And her successors probably don't understand why anybody would. Will the Agent have to be the conscience for the whole operation?

 

 

 

I can just imagine:

...

Hunter: Well, you see I have these fun little plans for you. I've kind of had this crazy crush on you for ages, and now you're finally in my control. We're going to have so much fun!

Agent: Huh. That's a bit disturbing. Then again, you are pretty cute. I'm pretty much putty in the hands of women, as my encounters with pretty much every woman I run into proves.

Hunter: ...I was sort of expecting you to look slightly more disturbed by that.

Agent: I can pretend, if that's your thing.

Hunter: ....I think you're even crazier than I am.

 

I giggled. It's a relief to find a way to laugh at some of this stuff.

 

Hunter thought we were worth it, at least. I'm not sure if that's good, but there it is.

 

It's kind of this sad, hamster wheel of tragedy.

 

I find your imagery delightful. That is all.

 

Yeah, I was kind of like your friend, to be honest. I love that face.

 

Crazy handsome face. I now recognize that model in all NPCs because my stomach seizes up a second before I can identify the problem with this stranger who hasn't done anything to offend me yet. It's like "you remind me of my ex" x50.

 

Kaliyo is pretty abusive and the relationship is a complete trainwreck.

 

Oddly, Kaliyo felt like the most normal, refreshing relationship I had. Not counting Vector. Kaliyo was a manipulative psycho impolite word, but I knew I could count on her to be that way. I enjoyed her romance as one of the most traditional, comprehensible things in my Agent's life.

 

Twisted.

 

I'm cleaning up and uploading my Agent's interactions with Hunter to Youtube and will post the playlist when I'm finished. I ran through as a neutral/LS, pro-Empire, male, Hunter-hating kind of guy.

[bright_ephemera]

And to re-open the Hunter thing:

 

I believe both characters; the Agent and Hunter are just actors. Like mentioned before; they are playing their parts, and following the script. However; I think the Agent was less of a flat actor, and more of a ... "That's a nice mask I can wear; but I'm still always going to try and stay me." where as I believe hunter fell into: "Its all I've ever been, so Hunter is me.".

 

The agent spends the latter half of the story trying to escape their role; where I believe Hunter is trying to desperately cling to it because she's come to the realization that she doesn't know what she is behind the role.

 

Depends how you play. ^.^ I spent the second half of the game working like mad to justify my mask, and the narrative made sense that way, too.

Even breaking the brainwashing was about freeing me from the Republic elements, not from the Imperials I reported to. In my case Hunter was the one trying to tug at the edges, tell me about a relationship or a vision that wasn't all about my Imperial servitude. And I was the one saying "I don't know how to do that and I don't want to try." Maybe that's why I ended up with such a baldly antagonistic dynamic.

 

[Acherom]

Depends how you play. ^.^ I spent the second half of the game working like mad to justify my mask, and the narrative made sense that way, too.

Even breaking the brainwashing was about freeing me from the Republic elements, not from the Imperials I reported to. In my case Hunter was the one trying to tug at the edges, tell me about a relationship or a vision that wasn't all about my Imperial servitude. And I was the one saying "I don't know how to do that and I don't want to try." Maybe that's why I ended up with such a baldly antagonistic dynamic.

 

See that's part of the wonder of this story;

 

 

From the second I knew it was the Imperials that conditioned me for the code word; I wanted out. Period.

Now I hold no deep grudge against Keeper / the Minister because I understand why it was done; but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

I wanted to get out of the stupid web of conflict between the Republic and Empire; because it was painfully apparent that I was nothing but a chess piece to either side. (And not even a good one, like a Knight or a Rook. Just an average pawn.) The SC? If it were an option I would have joined them without a second's hesitation. Because despite how completely agitating Hunter was; he was the closest thing to a rival I had. (That all goes without saying: Kol has his own code, and does not break it. Period. I would not join up with the SC just to... go around the galaxy setting fire to force-sensitive orphanages in the outer rims simply because more Sith / Jedi could come from them.)

 

And you know what? Both approaches work.

 

Edited May 24, 2012 by Acherom

[Celacia]

Reviewing the whole thread here over lunch, because I'm really enjoying this, especially the explosion of Hunter-talk.

Seriously. I could talk about this for days. (Wait, we have been, haven't we?)

This really got to me.

Now that I look at it, of course Cipher Nine is a construct. I used to talk about that identity with Vector. But at the same time, coming in as a player, Cipher Nine is all I've ever known. I didn't live the backstory in my head, I just sketched it in after the fact. I don't know how to not be Cipher Nine, and so every attempt Hunter made to connect with me as a person was doomed to fall flat. I denied his personhood because I had always denied my own personhood. I think he understood that better than I did in the end. "It's gonna be hell without me"? Maybe, with nobody else to so much as try to reach me, maybe it will be.

That is an interesting way to think about it. Livia never denied her personhood, but when she dropped her family's names she utterly rejected her past - they didn't want her anymore, so she no longer even acknowledged their existence or her connection to it. When Vector asked her about her family and her past she refused to talk about it. (She would tell him about it, haltingly, much later, when they had been involved for a good while.) She had walls up, but she remained essentially who she was - her masks were more transient. She was easier to reach, I guess?

And this forces me to wonder about any future Intelligence operations. The Minister was remarkable for protecting his people where he could. They had ugly jobs, but he went out of his way to see that his agents were all right. Watcher Two...doesn't. And her successors probably don't understand why anybody would. Will the Agent have to be the conscience for the whole operation?

I think she tries, but, given who and what she is, it often falls a little short. She wants to take care of her operatives, but she is locked in to placing results first when she evaluates plans. Evaluating how much things might cost individual people is something she has a hard time with. And yes, the later watchers probably don't see it at all.

Crazy handsome face. I now recognize that model in all NPCs because my stomach seizes up a second before I can identify the problem with this stranger who hasn't done anything to offend me yet. It's like "you remind me of my ex" x50.

My male agent, Antinous, has that face. He is waiting oh, so patiently to get to come out and play.

Oddly, Kaliyo felt like the most normal, refreshing relationship I had. Not counting Vector. Kaliyo was a manipulative psycho impolite word, but I knew I could count on her to be that way. I enjoyed her romance as one of the most traditional, comprehensible things in my Agent's life.

I love her for that consistency. She's nuts, but you can count on her completely, within her limits.

I'm cleaning up and uploading my Agent's interactions with Hunter to Youtube and will post the playlist when I'm finished. I ran through as a neutral/LS, pro-Empire, male, Hunter-hating kind of guy.

Excellent. Thank-you, I can't wait to watch.

[Celacia]

I wanted to get out of the stupid web of conflict between the Republic and Empire; because it was painfully apparent that I was nothing but a chess piece to either side. (And not even a good one, like a Knight or a Rook. Just an average pawn.)

One of my favorite things about the Corellia part of the plot (just a small thing, but still) relates to this: Lord Razer, even with how much my agent (and I) hated him and his stupid Sith attitude, had the decency to treat her like she was valuable - he insisted on giving her time to extract herself before letting his bombers loose on the area she was in. It felt kind of remarkable - like a tiny sliver of hope that getting commandeered by the military and sent to this horror show of a planet just might be survivable. She had fully expected him to treat her as disposable, because, well, he was Sith, and the only other Sith who hadn't treated her that way had his own reasons for it.