It took a bit...

[Aaoogaa]

I played gunnery in beta and enjoyed it but never had an issue with ammo regen. Now that I have respecced from CM to gunnery I am having some ammo issues. I have had to put a greater number of hammer shots into the rotation. I was trying to put my finger on the difference in ammo totals with ability usage. It seems that I have to watch ammo a great deal more than I used to even though they added additional abilities to regen on crits. I think I figured it out.

 

When grav round is cast the ammo cost does not count until the ability completes casting. While for full auto the cost comes off when the button is pressed. The burst usage i.e. 4 ammo used is in most cases instantly dropping us into the next lower ammo regen. Where this wasn't an issue pre 1.2 with less COF procs now it is. I think this is where people are seeing the overall damage nerf because of the need to rotate in more hammershots to sustain dps output. Now if hammer shot is supposed to be an actual part of our dps rotation then fine...if not, the new mechanic should be beneficial but it is working against us.

[RuQu]

How long does CoF last?

 

With Grav Round at 2 Ammo, and FA at 2 Ammo, casting GR/FA is an instant 4 Ammo cost. If you start at 12 Ammo you don't regen while casting GR, and that lands you at 10 Ammo. If you start below 12 Ammo, you regen while casting GR. If you start casting GR with less than 11.1 Ammo, you will finish GR with less than 10, which means an immediate FA will drop you below 8.

 

Both of those situations reduce your Ammo regenerated. Sitting at 12 Ammo reduces your ammo regenerated during the fight, as does dropping below 8 Ammo. Less ammo regenerated = less DPS.

 

Since you GR, FA, and DR all cost 2 Ammo and you cannot ensure every GR will generate a CoF, you need to weave in HS any time your Ammo drops below 10. Once every 2 minutes you can use the rest of your resource pool...it seems some redesign might be in order.

[JLapp]

I think COF last 10s (somewhere around there). And can only proc every 6s.

 

I haven't really noticed a huge difference in the amount of COF procs. I'm sure it is proc'ing more often but it was pretty frequent before as well. It's always been the case that grav eats ammo and the end and FA at the beginning.

[Freeborne]

Assuming your tank can hold the aggro, or the boss fight has no aggro table, you should be leading with Three Grav Rounds (for the 5 armor debuff), and then your Demo Round, to consume its CD asap.

 

Then HiB (which should be free from your spec and set bonus. Imo, waiting for 5 stacks of your dmg buff isn't worth it for the first shot)), and a HS.

 

Now you just we'vein hammer shots while:

 

1. Keeping your ammo at 8 or above.

2. Keeping your grav round debuff up.

3. Using Demo Round on Cool Down

4. Using HiB on Cool Down. (You should always have at least 3 stacks of the damage increase when you use it.)

5. Using Full Auto when the damage buff proc's.

 

And save your damage boosts from relics/stims for when Demo Round and HiB are both off CD and you have 5 stacks of DEBUFFS>

[RuQu]

Assuming your tank can hold the aggro, or the boss fight has no aggro table, you should be leading with Three Grav Rounds (for the 5 armor debuff), and then your Demo Round, to consume its CD asap.

 

Then HiB (which should be free from your spec and set bonus. Imo, waiting for 5 stacks of your dmg buff isn't worth it for the first shot)), and a HS.

 

Now you just we'vein hammer shots while:

 

1. Keeping your ammo at 8 or above.

2. Keeping your grav round debuff up.

3. Using Demo Round on Cool Down

4. Using HiB on Cool Down. (You should always have at least 3 stacks of the damage increase when you use it.)

5. Using Full Auto when the damage buff proc's.

 

And save your damage boosts from relics/stims for when Demo Round and HiB are both off CD and you have 5 stacks of DEBUFFS>

 

I don't tend to play Gunnery, but I'm curious about your choice of 8 Ammo as the threshold to use HS.

 

Shouldn't you be using HS to keep your Ammo at 10+? GR, DR, and FA all cost 2 Ammo. For FA and DR you need to be at 10+ when you start casting since it charges you immediately. For GR you can cast it at 9.1+ Ammo, since you will regen 0.9 while casting it (with 0 Alacrity), which puts you at 10 as it finishes and thus 8 once it charges you on completion of the cast.

 

If you cast GR at exactly 8 Ammo, you will finish at 6.9, and it will take 3.5s to get back above 8 again. If you cast GR at 9.1, it will take 2.2s to get back to 9.1 Ammo (of course, Ammo only appears as integers, so it is more likely you should cast it at 10, which is easier since it is the same as DR and FA, but the 2.2s is still the same for 9.1 or 10). That means you should be able to fit in 1.59* as many non-HS casts if you switch your threshold for GR. The results are even larger for DR/FA, since casting them at 8 drops you all the way down to 6, although you do regen while casting / on GCD. It takes 5.55s to get back to 8 Ammo, vs casting at 10 and only needing 2.2s, a difference of 2.52 times as long.

 

Working in the 10+ range really is a remarkably small window.

 

I would recommend counting to 5 before starting to let your tank get a head start, then burn all of your Ammo on the openers you suggested to build up your stacks, pop Recharge Cells, then shift into the priority list you gave, only use 10 Ammo as your threshold to maintain instead of 8. You should see a notable improvement in DPS and a decrease in HS usage.

[JLapp]

Grav round and Full auto crits also have a 50% chance to generate one ammo (can only happen every 3s). So about 1/4 of grav rounds are basically going to be free (1 + 0.9). Full auto is almost free as well (in the max regen range generates 1.8s assuming no alacrity).

 

I think you two are saying basically the same thing. Don't use abilities that drop you below 8 ammo...at least not consistently.

Edited April 17, 2012 by JLapp

[Aaoogaa]

If you are sitting at 12 ammo 10 ammo or 8 ammo its does not matter. When grav round fires you use 2 ammo if you get a CoF proc you use it for another 2 ammo cost right away..least that is what you would want to do with CoF to maximize the number of procs in a fight. Doing so at any time will either put you at 8 ammo (if you were at 12) or at the .36 ammo regen if you have anything less than 12 ammo. This isn't a discussion on rotation...at least to me. It is a discussion of the new mechanic using more ammo due to more CoF procs. These 4 ammo burst usages automatically put us into the lower ammo regen bracket unless we are at 12 ammo. So we are forced to space our GR and CoF FA usages with a hammer shot to maintain the higher ammo regen for sustained dps. I just wanted to point out that before 1.2 this wasn't necessary due to casting more GR and staying in the higher regen rate longer. After 1.2 the mechanics changes are forcing more HS usage due to the burst ammo usage of a GR/CoF FA. I like the changes to be less reliant on GR, but I feel that BW needs to tweak the ammo regeneration off of our specials because of how we use ammo now. If this change to use more HS is intended by BW then fine, great, but they said if output was nerfed from pre 1.2 they would want to look at it because they didn't intend to nerf overall output. To me more time in the lower ammo regen bracket is a nerf to output. Edited April 17, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Aaoogaa]

Grav round and Full auto crits also have a 50% chance to generate one ammo (can only happen every 3s). So about 1/4 of grav rounds are basically going to be free (1 + 0.9). Full auto is almost free as well (in the max regen range generates 1.8s assuming no alacrity).

 

I think you two are saying basically the same thing. Don't use abilities that drop you below 8 ammo...at least not consistently.

 

Yes, except a GR/FA combo removes 4 ammo (2+2) at almost the same time. So even if you are at 11.9 ammo when you pop this combo you will be at the .36 ammo regen rate...no matter what you do. To ensure you stay in the .6 ammo regen rate you have to go GR,HS,FA...is the forced usage of HS between every 2 ammo combo to ensure you stay at 8 or higher ammo intended or a byproduct of limited tweaking to the ammo regen skill?

[Sotaudi]

Yes, except a GR/FA combo removes 4 ammo (2+2) at almost the same time. So even if you are at 11.9 ammo when you pop this combo you will be at the .36 ammo regen rate...no matter what you do. To ensure you stay in the .6 ammo regen rate you have to go GR,HS,FA...is the forced usage of HS between every 2 ammo combo to ensure you stay at 8 or higher ammo intended or a byproduct of limited tweaking to the ammo regen skill?

 

Your math is incorrect because you are leaving out a lot of the ammo mechanics. Ammo regens even when you are casting. At 11.9 ammo, you are at a .6 ammo regen rate. In the 1.5 seconds it takes GR to cast, you will regen .9 ammo. That means that, by the time GR casts, you will be subtracting 4 ammo from 12, not 11.9 ammo, and you still be in the top ammo regen rate. In fact, because you return .9 ammo in the time it takes to cast GR, you will still be in the top ammo regen rate even if you start at 11.1 ammo. Since at the top ammo regen rate, FA will return 1.8 ammo during its cast time, you will be at 9.8 ammo by the time the combo finishes when starting at 11.1.

 

Also, the previous poster was incorrect. You only get a 50% chance of returning 1 ammo on a crit from "rounds" or FA if you only invest 1 point in Charged Cells. Investing the full 2 points in Charged Cells will give you a 100% chance to return ammo on a crit from "rounds" or FA. Since FA fires multiple shots during its cast time, each of which can crit, with a decent crit rate, FA is almost guaranteed to return one ammo. Add a chance for GR to crit into the mix, and your chances of the combo returning one ammo is even greater. Add to that the fact that the proc can occur once every three seconds and that the combination takes 4.5 seconds to cast, it is even possible that you can get two ammo back from the combo (although, this is only functionally possible if you fire FA then GR since GR damage -- and, therefore, its crit -- is only calculated after it casts).

 

So when you add the almost guarantee that you will get one ammo back from the combination with Charged Cells maxed, starting at 11.1 ammo, you will generally be at 10.8 ammo by the end of the cast, which is a net cost of only .3 ammo for the entire combination at that regen rate. Losing .3 ammo during the cast of that combo is not going to drop you below the .6 ammo regen rate even at starting 11.1 ammo.

 

On the other hand, yes, the ammo costs were increased, making ammo management more difficult. This was by design, and thus, you can conclude that, yes, they intended you to use Hammer Shot much more often than before.

[Sotaudi]

If you are sitting at 12 ammo 10 ammo or 8 ammo its does not matter. When grav round fires you use 2 ammo if you get a CoF proc you use it for another 2 ammo cost right away..least that is what you would want to do with CoF to maximize the number of procs in a fight. Doing so at any time will either put you at 8 ammo (if you were at 12) or at the .36 ammo regen if you have anything less than 12 ammo. This isn't a discussion on rotation...at least to me. It is a discussion of the new mechanic using more ammo due to more CoF procs. These 4 ammo burst usages automatically put us into the lower ammo regen bracket unless we are at 12 ammo. So we are forced to space our GR and CoF FA usages with a hammer shot to maintain the higher ammo regen for sustained dps. I just wanted to point out that before 1.2 this wasn't necessary due to casting more GR and staying in the higher regen rate longer. After 1.2 the mechanics changes are forcing more HS usage due to the burst ammo usage of a GR/CoF FA. I like the changes to be less reliant on GR, but I feel that BW needs to tweak the ammo regeneration off of our specials because of how we use ammo now. If this change to use more HS is intended by BW then fine, great, but they said if output was nerfed from pre 1.2 they would want to look at it because they didn't intend to nerf overall output. To me more time in the lower ammo regen bracket is a nerf to output.

 

With Charged Cells maxed and getting a 100% chance to return 1 ammo on a crit (max. every 3 seconds), a decent crit chance will almost guarantee a return of one ammo with Full Auto. Additionally, ammo regens while Full Auto is casting. In its 3 second cast time, FA will regenerate 1.8 ammo at the top regen rate, 1.08 ammo at the middle regen rate, and .72 ammo at the bottom regen rate. Adding in the almost guaranteed addition of one ammo from crit during full auto, and FA is a net gain of .8 ammo (1.8 + 1 - 2) for the top regen rate, a net gain of .08 (1.08 + 1 - 2) for the middle regen rate, and only a net cost of .28 (.72 + 1 - 2) for the bottom regen rate.

 

At the top to regen rates, FA is basically a net gain in ammo and dirt cheap even at the lowest regen rate, where it only costs 1 ammo every 3 to 4 casts. The increased proc rate of Curtain of Fire is not an issue in ammo usage.

 

The increase in costs for other abilities does factor into the increased ammo use, and, yes, they intended us to use Hammer Shot more to manage ammo where, before, we rarely had to do so. However, it is not the increased proc rate of CoF that is causing higher ammo usage.

[Aaoogaa]

Your math is incorrect...

 

No, my math is correct. The moment GR ends and FA begins in that split second you are charged 4 ammo...and dropping to the .36 ammo regen rate. It may not last long, if you crit on the first FA pulse and didn't crit withint 3 seconds of this occuring, it may last a couple seconds....it is still a loss of .24 ammo for every second you are in the second tier of ammo regen.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[ArchangelLBC]

Did several attempts tonight to figure out a good rotation. With the 4 piece set bonus and using HiB as often as possible as your filler it's definitely possible to either stretch your ammo pool the full 2 minutes with barely any hammershots, and if you get lucky on the crits you can do so without any hammershots.

 

Can we get a double check on when we enter lower tier regen? Seemed I was sitting at 8 ammo and full regen tonight but I wasn't looking.

 

Also seemed to me that often using FA would put me into second tier regen but I'd be back to full tier regen before the first hit landed which if I had to guess was because the previous GCD had gotten me .9 ammo and the extra .1 just doesn't take that long to get back? Too anecdotal to really say either way.

 

Anyway, point is I think that with CoF procs being up the best thing to do is use HiB on cooldown regardless of charged barrel stacks as your filler, jack crit rate up till you hit diminishing returns (2 piece set bonus helps a ton here as well), and I still say use Hammer shot at 8 ammo or below, and if you misjudge it that's what reserve powercell is for. I feel using it on top tier regen is somewhat of a waste to be honest.

 

Honestly the real difficulty comes in from balancing your ammo usage so that it takes you the 2 minutes to tear through the whole ammo pool. Tear through too quick and you're sitting there dry spamming hammer shot and losing serious DPS. If you're taking longer than 2 minutes then either you got super lucky on crits or you're losing DPS which in OPs means you aren't carrying your weight.

[RuQu]

Did several attempts tonight to figure out a good rotation. With the 4 piece set bonus and using HiB as often as possible as your filler it's definitely possible to either stretch your ammo pool the full 2 minutes with barely any hammershots, and if you get lucky on the crits you can do so without any hammershots.

 

Can we get a double check on when we enter lower tier regen? Seemed I was sitting at 8 ammo and full regen tonight but I wasn't looking.

 

Also seemed to me that often using FA would put me into second tier regen but I'd be back to full tier regen before the first hit landed which if I had to guess was because the previous GCD had gotten me .9 ammo and the extra .1 just doesn't take that long to get back? Too anecdotal to really say either way.

 

Anyway, point is I think that with CoF procs being up the best thing to do is use HiB on cooldown regardless of charged barrel stacks as your filler, jack crit rate up till you hit diminishing returns (2 piece set bonus helps a ton here as well), and I still say use Hammer shot at 8 ammo or below, and if you misjudge it that's what reserve powercell is for. I feel using it on top tier regen is somewhat of a waste to be honest.

 

Honestly the real difficulty comes in from balancing your ammo usage so that it takes you the 2 minutes to tear through the whole ammo pool. Tear through too quick and you're sitting there dry spamming hammer shot and losing serious DPS. If you're taking longer than 2 minutes then either you got super lucky on crits or you're losing DPS which in OPs means you aren't carrying your weight.

 

Are you suggesting that the goal should be to slowly get lower and lower on Ammo so that you run dry just in time for RC to come available?

 

That's what it sounds like you are saying, but I find it hard to believe you would say that in a post where you make it clear you know we have different regen tiers.

 

If that is what you are saying, spend some time on the combat dummy and parse your logs doing it your way, and again doing it trying to stay around 10 Ammo, with big burn phase right before RC is usable. You should see a big improvement.

[Glorionn]

Yeah I always do a massice burn phase before I use RC, I'll get down to 2-4 ammo. In pve, I link this up with inspiration as much as I can.

[ArchangelLBC]

Are you suggesting that the goal should be to slowly get lower and lower on Ammo so that you run dry just in time for RC to come available?

 

That's what it sounds like you are saying, but I find it hard to believe you would say that in a post where you make it clear you know we have different regen tiers.

 

If that is what you are saying, spend some time on the combat dummy and parse your logs doing it your way, and again doing it trying to stay around 10 Ammo, with big burn phase right before RC is usable. You should see a big improvement.

 

 

I am suggesting that, to an extent, but in practice it seems to work out more towards being at around half ammo when RC finishes cooldown. The major difference I think is that your goal isn't to stay in top tier regen as much as possible so much as it is to stay at 7 ammo or above. I'm more than willing to try your experiment though.

 

Here's a parse that includes an almost 20 minute session on the combat dummy. Sustained 1172 DPS. Full raid buffs, only used Rakata stim since I didn't feel like burning an Exotech, and burned an on use Columni Power relic and a Rakata Power adrenal on cooldown. Had a few times where cooldown for RC came and went so probably could have pumped out more. I'll try it your way tomorrow if we don't finish raiding too late (I meet with my advisor on Friday mornings). I'm also trying to figure out if the damage relic, the on-use relic, or both with one replacing my Matrix Cube, are the best relic combo for damage.

 

From a theory crafting perspective I'm interested to know why you think more hammershots will ultimately prove to be better for my DPS. I'm not saying you're wrong. You're pretty good about most of this stuff, but I just don't see how it can be higher with more hammershots. It seems to me, at least theoretically, that the only purpose of keeping ammo regen high is so your DPS is sustainable. If I can keep the DPS up without resorting to Hammer shots, I figure I'm doing my job.

 

More anecdotal thoughts from that parse above, and looking at the actual log for the parse on TORparse, I still don't think it's as cut and dried. It would appear that Cell Charger gives you your ammo back after the ammo is taken, (you can check out the log here assuming it works). So for example if you start at 12 ammo, crit your first grav round, proc CoF and immediately use FA, you're at 9 ammo not 8 because the net cost of that grav round was only 1 ammo so you're still at top tier regen, and you'll be at 11 ammo when FA finishes letting you apply another grav round with Cell Charger available, and on and on. I use HiB either at 5 stacks, or if its off cooldown and I go below top tier regen then use HiB as a filler etc etc.

 

 

I'll do more testing in the following days, but at the least I've found a rotation that, in practice, more or less never runs completely out of ammo (if I'm paying attention) over long periods of time. I might be suffering from minor lag issues that, for an example, actually gives me that extra .1 ammo from grav round before the next button is hit. Hard to say, but that does bring up the question of whether it's actually a better idea to wait that extra 6th of a second instead of wasting an entire GCD on Hammershot.

 

 

Anyway, point is I can more or less keep up a high damage rotation that doesn't have much hammershot in it. Now its time to optimize things because the measure of DPS is DPS, not "how little did you use hammershot".

 

edit: Looking at some of Glorio's parses and Socman's in the other thread it seems they are following your wisdom and getting 70-120 more DPS than me. Now of course there are other variables to take into account but it certainly lends your views credence. Like I said, I'll try it your way, or try and find a nice middle ground, and see what I get =)

Edited April 19, 2012 by ArchangelLBC

[RuQu]

Sorry I haven't replied, I haven't had the time (or level of caring) to invest in doing too much number crunching. I did, however, update my Gunnery calculator to 1.2 after someone requested it, and that is available in my signature.

 

I am working on wrapping up my community support projects for this game (like the Gunnery calculator) as I no longer play due to complete dissatisfaction with Patch 1.2 and the quality/direction of the game.

 

I'm not likely to reply much more, nor do I watch the Patch Notes, but I am willing to make adjustments to my tools if an interested party wants to forward me relevant changes.

[jedip_enguin]

The irony of it all is that despite the increased proc rate you cant really use FA that much more often without nerfing regen into the ground, making the whole affair relatively zero sum in its effect on our dps.

 

A cost reduction on FA would help, but 1 ammo for FA would have the masses screaming overpowered..

 

This is where having 100 ammo rather than 12 would be good as it would allow much more granularity for tuning ability costs, but thats an argument for another day...

[oaceen]

The irony of it all is that despite the increased proc rate you cant really use FA that much more often without nerfing regen into the ground, making the whole affair relatively zero sum in its effect on our dps.

 

A cost reduction on FA would help, but 1 ammo for FA would have the masses screaming overpowered..

 

This is where having 100 ammo rather than 12 would be good as it would allow much more granularity for tuning ability costs, but thats an argument for another day...

with a decent crit rating, doesn't FA pretty much guarantee an extra ammo with cell charger though?

[Aaoogaa]

with a decent crit rating, doesn't FA pretty much guarantee an extra ammo with cell charger though?

 

Yes and no. If you drop to the second tier and are using hammer shot to maintain regen you will be wasting 1.5 seconds doing that and may not average 1 ammo every 3 seconds, which is the cooldown on cell charger. If you were only using 1.5 second abilities that applied the ammo cost at the end of the cast then there would be no issue. The problem comes in from chaining GR/FA and GR/DR both will drop you into the second tier of regen. Is it terrible? No, but it would be nice if they considered everything when making large changes. Ammo issues that were not present before 1.2 are now hanging around.

[oaceen]

Yes and no. If you drop to the second tier and are using hammer shot to maintain regen you will be wasting 1.5 seconds doing that and may not average 1 ammo every 3 seconds, which is the cooldown on cell charger. If you were only using 1.5 second abilities that applied the ammo cost at the end of the cast then there would be no issue. The problem comes in from chaining GR/FA and GR/DR both will drop you into the second tier of regen. Is it terrible? No, but it would be nice if they considered everything when making large changes. Ammo issues that were not present before 1.2 are now hanging around.

 

thanks for the maths lesson, but that doesn't really have anything to do with my post or its purpose.

i mentioned full auto and cell charger and never mentioned any other attack, skill, or commando's intrinsic ammo regeneration.