Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[Urdnaxela]

You can not care all you want, but the concerns are valid.

The presence of a cross server dungeon finder is the difference between an online multiplayer co op game and an mmorpg.

 

Thankfully, the developers said the incoming FP finder will be server wide only.

 

yeah, this will surely ruin the strong community of 10s of people (multiply it by the number of low population servers) that are on fleet each day foolishly trying to make a group for a ****in' flashpoint while praying that more people will come to the server...

 

a dungeon finder without cross realm, in the absence of server merges and/or transfers is useless. why?

- people that are on servers with a good population are already clearing group content, so they don't actually "need" an automated LFG tool

- people on low population servers have nobody to group up with, so an automated LFG tool will automatically NOT ****in' find people to group up with.

[BucMan]

At least you're distracting me from work, even if it is to wonder how you're failing to understand anything.

 

You know, since there is no empirical evidence(because nobody tracks it so that there can be evidence of it - and even if they did some kind of test pre and post it would be dismissed as not being scientific enough due to variables) any argument about the negative effects are speculation since you can't pinpoint the actual reason for what has been observed.

 

It's like the old question, what killed the general community in WoW? Was it LFD, Gearscore, DPS Meters, Easy Access Raids making more wannabe elitists, global warming, the Mayans?? When you look at it you can see a drastic shift in the general community but you can't really pinpoint. People arguing in favor of any of the above will say you can't prove that what the aspect that they are arguing for was the cause.

 

Or if you have circumstantial evidence against two suspects and both are saying the other did it. Neither can be convicted because each casts a shadow of a doubt on the other.

 

And anyway, they aren't all sitting in town waiting for their queues to pop. Some are doing their 30 minutes worth of dailies, then heading back to the towns to wait for it to pop.

[MajikMyst]

You know, since there is no empirical evidence(because nobody tracks it so that there can be evidence of it - and even if they did some kind of test pre and post it would be dismissed as not being scientific enough due to variables) any argument about the negative effects are speculation since you can't pinpoint the actual reason for what has been observed..

 

Don't forget, the same would also apply to you as well.. How can you say it would be beneficial to the community?? So by your standards, there is no arguement that it is good for the community as well.. Since any argument about the positive effects are speculation since you can't pinpoint the actual reason for what has been observed..

 

The cross server LFG system is bad for guilds.. Because it meant that people didn't need guilds to run stuff.. Be it raids, flashpoints or PVP activities.. That is simply logic and simply to see.. Why be in a guild when people have only to press a button and then be inserted into a ready made group..

[chaosdefined]

One of the more intelligent responses, thank you Bucman.

 

So far the only actual solid evidence about anything to do with Cross Server LFD in WoW was that from the date is was implimented the subscriptions numbers began to rise for a solid year. Now that may not, and probably wasn't entirely due to the Group Finder tool. However what it is evidence of, is that the tool certainly did not kill the game or cause a mass exodus of it like some are claiming.

 

Currently you can level up on a planet and perhaps ask in Chat for a Flashpoint, but the majority of people looking for one will be sitting in the Fleet. At least an automated Group Finder gives people the ability to do missions and queue for a flashpoint.

 

More options on being able to play are far better then less.

[chaosdefined]

Don't forget, the same would also apply to you as well.. How can you say it would be beneficial to the community?? So by your standards, there is no arguement that it is good for the community as well.. Since any argument about the positive effects are speculation since you can't pinpoint the actual reason for what has been observed..

 

The cross server LFG system is bad for guilds.. Because it meant that people didn't need guilds to run stuff.. Be it raids, flashpoints or PVP activities.. That is simply logic and simply to see.. Why be in a guild when people have only to press a button and then be inserted into a ready made group..

 

The forum rules forbid me from reacting in the appropriate manner at your decision to once again reply to these topics. However be assured it is with a great disappointment.

 

Cross Server is not bad for guilds, that is complete nonsense. Simple log is not something you seem to use often. People will still choose to run content with their friends and Guilds. Always.

 

Want evidence of that? Go look at WoW. 2 and a half years after Cross Server Dungeon Finder and OMG! There are GUILDS in this game!!!

Just please go sit in the corner or something.

Edited April 24, 2012 by chaosdefined

[BucMan]

Don't forget, the same would also apply to you as well.. How can you say it would be beneficial to the community?? So by your standards, there is no arguement that it is good for the community as well.. Since any argument about the positive effects are speculation since you can't pinpoint the actual reason for what has been observed..

 

No, but you can say that it was at least a part of the problem. Especially since the same thing happened in Rift, but Rift had fewer variables(no GearScore or integrated ingame DPS Meters just to name a couple). So no, neither side has concrete evidence, but one side can't tell the other side to get evidence or go home. It's really nothing against the guys in here. Even on the Rift boards, there were a few guys who would actually understand the opposing viewpoints, even if they did not agree with it. But many who brought up the "no evidence" argument did so out of some kind of legalistic ideology as if we were in some kind of court of law, and were quite dismissive.

[chaosdefined]

I only use the 'no evidence' stance against people who shout about how the Group Finder destroyed something and state it as a fact. It can't be a fact without evidence.

 

I still vote for a Group Finder with the options of Group Finder or Single Server so that the player gets to choose how they wish to use it.

[RachelAnne]

I only use the 'no evidence' stance against people who shout about how the Group Finder destroyed something and state it as a fact. It can't be a fact without evidence.

 

I still vote for a Group Finder with the options of Group Finder or Single Server so that the player gets to choose how they wish to use it.

 

The fact´s are there, go play wow and see it for yourself. If you dont want to just read the forums there, your evidence is all over the place.

 

A LFG in the state of Wow´s LFG is not a good thing, it does not matter if single server, server group or worldwide - idiots are everywhere.

The problem is, that such a tool if automated cant decide about the who is with whom compatible. This is the whole problem, not single server or xrealm or the basic idea of helping finding groups.

 

If you throw 1 elitist in a group of 3 non elitist´s, then this cant work - just like 3 elitist wont have a mom in their group. You allready see at this forum here, how different people rate stuff. Some dont want weaker geared in their runs, others dont want to skip trash, again others dont want that others roll for their mainspec etc.

All those get thrown into 1 pool, thats not good and in the long run it destroys the fun.

[chaosdefined]

The fact´s are there, go play wow and see it for yourself. If you dont want to just read the forums there, your evidence is all over the place.

 

A LFG in the state of Wow´s LFG is not a good thing, it does not matter if single server, server group or worldwide - idiots are everywhere.

The problem is, that such a tool if automated cant decide about the who is with whom compatible. This is the whole problem, not single server or xrealm or the basic idea of helping finding groups.

 

If you throw 1 elitist in a group of 3 non elitist´s, then this cant work - just like 3 elitist wont have a mom in their group. You allready see at this forum here, how different people rate stuff. Some dont want weaker geared in their runs, others dont want to skip trash, again others dont want that others roll for their mainspec etc.

All those get thrown into 1 pool, thats not good and in the long run it destroys the fun.

 

/sigh

 

That's not a fact, that's still a perspective, an opinion! The tool has nothing to do with player behaviour. In the last few years I have had 19/20 runs be perfectly fine on the cross server group finder!

 

Honestly, if you have such a low opinion of other players, even on your own server, why are you playing an MMO?!

Edited April 24, 2012 by chaosdefined

[Katahn]

If I placed a pot of water on a heat source and then observed that some time later the water is boiling I would be justified in making the tentative assumption the heat source was what caused the water to eventually boil.

 

If I placed a second pot of water on that same heat soruce and observed that it too came to a boil some time later I would have an even greater justification for concluding the heat source caused the water to boil.

 

I have seen in WoW a series of shifts in player behavior I regard as negative changes in the status quo since the introduction of a cross-server LFG tool to the game. By itself this is a single data point and does not constitute a pattern.

 

I have seen in Rift a series of shifts in player behavior I regard as negative changes in the status quo since the introduction of a cross-server LFG tool to the game. These changes in behavior closely mimic the exact same changes I observed when the same situation happened in WoW. Given two different games with superficial similarities both implemented the same feature and I saw similar states follow it I feel entirely justified in saying "You know, I think this might be a bad idea". I have evidence that would strongly imply there is at least some kind of causal relationship there.

 

All of this said I do think it is probably inevitable that SWTOR will get such a feature - I just do not look forward to that day. I suppose I can take consolation in the following... If I am right, I will have a third game's worth of "this is what happens with cross-server LFG" that I can use when this comes up in a future game's discussion forums. If it turns out I am wrong then I "win" in that the game I am currently enjoying won't have its adventure zones acting like ghost towns and I won't suddenly have a problem finding Heroic groups.

[chaosdefined]

If I placed a pot of water on a heat source and then observed that some time later the water is boiling I would be justified in making the tentative assumption the heat source was what caused the water to eventually boil.

 

If I placed a second pot of water on that same heat soruce and observed that it too came to a boil some time later I would have an even greater justification for concluding the heat source caused the water to boil.

There is also scientific evidence to back that up. So your comparison is somewhat flawed.

 

 

 

I have seen in WoW a series of shifts in player behavior I regard as negative changes in the status quo since the introduction of a cross-server LFG tool to the game. By itself this is a single data point and does not constitute a pattern.

People were mean to you. People were nice to me. One could just as easily argue that you caused the bad behaviour. There's just as much proof to that as your claims.

 

 

I have seen in Rift a series of shifts in player behavior I regard as negative changes in the status quo since the introduction of a cross-server LFG tool to the game. These changes in behavior closely mimic the exact same changes I observed when the same situation happened in WoW. Given two different games with superficial similarities both implemented the same feature and I saw similar states follow it I feel entirely justified in saying "You know, I think this might be a bad idea". I have evidence that would strongly imply there is at least some kind of causal relationship there.

 

All of this said I do think it is probably inevitable that SWTOR will get such a feature - I just do not look forward to that day. I suppose I can take consolation in the following... If I am right, I will have a third game's worth of "this is what happens with cross-server LFG" that I can use when this comes up in a future game's discussion forums. If it turns out I am wrong then I "win" in that the game I am currently enjoying won't have its adventure zones acting like ghost towns and I won't suddenly have a problem finding Heroic groups.

GROUP FINDER ISN'T TO DO WITH HEROIC MISSIONS. Why are you having such a difficult time taking that in? Seriously it's really not difficult?!

 

I weep for the future of humanity.

Edited April 24, 2012 by chaosdefined

[Psiwuff]

It is still amazing that there are people arguing how an LFG tool would ruin their game experience. Their argument seems to be "Someone ninja'd my loot in an LFG once, thus I want NO ONE to be able to actually find people for flashpoints, because what happened to me sucks".

 

Let's face it. I visit the station often, and there is NO LFG going on that I can see. We tried to run flashpoints several times as a group of three, and could not find a single person for three different normal mode FP's within half an hour to hour of spamming. In all this time, we were doing nothing but waiting on companion mission timers and standing around chatting via skype, and it was /boring/. We decided to drop the idea of flashpoints for the time being and go back to questing.

 

I have yet to run any flashpoint with a level-appropriate group besides Esseles and Black talon. The only time when we ran one or two was with a lvl 50 friend who basically pulled us through the whole thing, again because no one else was in sight. LFG is imho needed badly for anyone not in a guild, no matter if it attracts idiots. Who guarantees me that the person i pick up during general chat LFG spam isn't a retard either? Granted I can avoid him next time, but there are more 'tards out there who don't know basic etiquette. An LFG tool is essentially no different. My personal experience from about a year's worth of WoW LFG for low level to heroic troll runs? There are *******, yes. But it's a small percentage and those who act up are kick-voted and replaced fairly soon usually.

 

My point is, if Bioware wants people to run flashpoints anymore, LFG tools - cross-server too - are required. Else, it is simply a too big time investment - about an hour plus for an hour-long flashpoint to not possible at all.

People who do not wish to use the LFG tool are free to gather friends, guildies, or continue hopelessly spamming chat in general trying to find that one person they want for an FP run. Personally, I've just about had it with futily trying to participate in group content, if I wasn't running with a group of two competent friends already, I would not be able to complete heroic open world missions either, again, for lack of players and the utter worthlessness of spamming LFG in chat.

[tkinnunzero]

My evidence is WoW and Rift. In both games people stand around in the cities and troll the trade chat while waiting for their group finder to pop. They do this because the ease and convenience of levelling exclusively via doing dungeons far exceeds the alternative. This has twice had the effect of emptying out the adventure zones and making finding a group for non-dungeon content next to impossible. It is one of the prime reasons why Blizzard ending up removing all but a scant few of the elite (group required) quests from their adventure zones.

 

You have the causality a bit mixed up. WoW started changing elite quests to be soloable long before they introduced LFD. Here's a quote from patch 2.3 released on 13 November 2007:

 

"Many elite creatures and quests in the level 1-60 experience have been changed to accommodate solo play."

 

LFD was only introduced in patch 3.3 on December 8, 2009, more than two years after.

[RachelAnne]

/sigh

 

That's not a fact, that's still a perspective, an opinion! The tool has nothing to do with player behaviour. In the last few years I have had 19/20 runs be perfectly fine on the cross server group finder!

 

Honestly, if you have such a low opinion of other players, even on your own server, why are you playing an MMO?!

 

You just dont want to see fact´s, its not making much sense trying to explain it to you, again and again. You dont even read the post´s of those who have an opinion that doesnt fit yours or might just close your eyes at specific parts which might make your argumentation weak. You dont even understand that not the tool is the problem, but the execution of it.

 

If the tool is able to select the right group for players, especially casuals then be my guest and write an email to BW so that they can drop it and merge all servers of the world into it. But aslong those tools are unable to detect what kind of game / group we as players want, they will fail always.

 

I do play an MMO because I can have fun there, choose those I want to play with.

 

I dont play an MMO because I want to meet random people that insult me because I am not an elitist but a casual.

 

I am pretty sure that elitist players are having a easier time with LFG tools, they have the power and will control it. It happens at wow, with all the spyware tools that were used against casuals who dont take the game that serious.

 

 

I repeat again my advice, go read the wow forums or read the pvp forum here. You will find many examples of elitist behaivour that is used against casuals and the reason why people dont want to be grouped randomly.

Edited April 24, 2012 by RachelAnne

[Psiwuff]

You just dont want to see fact´s, its not making much sense trying to explain it to you, again and again. You dont even read the post´s of those who have an opinion that doesnt fit yours or might just close your eyes at specific parts which might make your argumentation weak. You dont even understand that not the tool is the problem, but the execution of it.

 

If the tool is able to select the right group for players, especially casuals then be my guest and write an email to BW so that they can drop it and merge all servers of the world into it. But aslong those tools are unable to detect what kind of game / group we as players want, they will fail always.

 

I do play an MMO because I can have fun there, choose those I want to play with.

 

I dont play an MMO because I want to meet random people that insult me because I am not an elitist but a casual.

 

I am pretty sure that elitist players are having a easier time with LFG tools, they have the power and will control it. It happens at wow, with all the spyware tools that were used against casuals who dont take the game that serious.

 

 

I repeat again my advice, go read the wow forums or read the pvp forum here. You will find many examples of elitist behaivour that is used against casuals and the reason why people dont want to be grouped randomly.

 

What somewhat confuses me about this post is the following. Why do people go around assuming that flashpoints/hardmode flashpoints would attract elitists? If it is anything like WoW concerning the difficulty to heroics versus raids, then you simply do not need elitism at any point in order to complete the content.

 

I have not once run into elitism during my 5-man runs back in the wow days. I have during raids, however, yes. Since raids are where you want your potential maximized to provide good results and easy clears, juggling 10 to 20 people. However when running a simple little flashpoint, the argument is moot. The content - from all that has been said in forums and told by friends who actually had the fortune to get into a flashpoint run - is easier than WoW comparably, so I seriously fail to see why elitism versus casual is even an issue.

 

To fail a flashpoint consistently means to not have a grasp of your class /at all/ and being blind to anything that is being done by the mobs that attack you. And while a learning curve goes without saying, if people aren't able to handle content this easy, they should not be running it. But that does not boil down to casual versus elitism, rather boils down to simply being able to play the game.

 

Also note that this is not intended as personal attack, Rachel, only as my opinion on the statement of elitism playing a role outside raid/operation content. I much share the same view, I just want to play the game and enjoy it. I also want to participate in group content however, which currently I simply can not do, for lack of people around to run it with, even with two friends tagging along. That fourth person is elusive for hours, until we quit looking out of boredom.

[chaosdefined]

You just dont want to see fact´s, its not making much sense trying to explain it to you, again and again. You dont even read the post´s of those who have an opinion that doesnt fit yours or might just close your eyes at specific parts which might make your argumentation weak. You dont even understand that not the tool is the problem, but the execution of it.

 

I am happy to see facts if they are supported by evidence. You have yet to provide anything more than opinion, at times incoherent ones too. Once again you're leaping to assumptions, you do that quite often, see I do read peoples opinion hence why I have stated numerous times that the best option would be a group finder that allowed you to choose if you want to queue Cross-Server or Single Server. My arguments are not weak just because you say they are, you have yet to do anything other than throw slanderous accusations at me.

 

If the tool is able to select the right group for players, especially casuals then be my guest and write an email to BW so that they can drop it and merge all servers of the world into it. But aslong those tools are unable to detect what kind of game / group we as players want, they will fail always.

 

I do play an MMO because I can have fun there, choose those I want to play with.

 

I dont play an MMO because I want to meet random people that insult me because I am not an elitist but a casual.

You claim you are not an elitist yet earlier on said you want control over who you pick for your group because there are too many idiots in the game. That sounds fairly elitist to me.

 

 

I am pretty sure that elitist players are having a easier time with LFG tools, they have the power and will control it. It happens at wow, with all the spyware tools that were used against casuals who dont take the game that serious.

 

 

I repeat again my advice, go read the wow forums or read the pvp forum here. You will find many examples of elitist behaivour that is used against casuals and the reason why people dont want to be grouped randomly.

 

Over on the WoW forums I'm seeing the exact same argument. Those who say they have no problems with the LFD and enjoy it, and those like you who are having control issues and throwing tantrums over the loss of precious loot.

 

It saddens me that those accusing other players of being anti-social are in fact far more guilty of it.

Edited April 24, 2012 by chaosdefined

[Katahn]

I weep for the future of humanity.

 

Let's try it this way, since you seem incapable of understanding my argument and/or I am incapable of making it understandable.

 

A cross-server dungeon finder has to do all of the following:

1. Allow for people to specify playstyle differences (story-mode, fast-run, etc. - add your own).

 

2. Allow for cross-server friend making, communication, and group-forming. In other words I want to be able to make friends running flashpoints that I can seek out to run more in the future. Such additional technology would be needed as statistically speaking I would be unable to count on grouping with people from my own server. Similarly it also has to allow for cross-server ignore lists that prevent an ignored player from joining.

 

3. Add "guild ignore" so that if I determine that every time I've grouped with a given guild its sucked I can ignore that guild and no one in it will be added to my PUG.

 

4. Allow for server transfers so if I find a cool guild on another server I can join it without having to reroll. Ideally such a transfer should be free (limited number allowed per month or quarter or year) OR a guild would itself become cross-server.

 

5. Allow people to specify which servers they specifically wanted to include in the search or specifically exclude from the search - perhaps by category. So people on RP-PvE servers would all go into their own queue, RP-PvP into their own queue, PvE into their own queue, and PvP into their own queue.

 

6. Also include queueing for Heroic Missions, World Arcs, and Class Missions. Since these missions are either not instanced (or not completely instanced) or only really doable for people on the same server the rewards for queueing and completing these missions should be higher than whatever rewards are given for completing purely instanced flashpoints in order to incentivize using the tool for more than just "levelling via flashpoints only".

 

7. All of the additional safeguards against bad player behavior that WoW and Rift had to add. Examples: class-restricted NBG looting, safeguards on abusing vote-kick, punishments for bailing on a group early, etc.

[chaosdefined]

Let's try it this way, since you seem incapable of understanding my argument and/or I am incapable of making it understandable.

Pot kettle black?

 

 

A cross-server dungeon finder has to do all of the following:

1. Allow for people to specify playstyle differences (story-mode, fast-run, etc. - add your own).

Agreed,

 

 

2. Allow for cross-server friend making, communication, and group-forming. In other words I want to be able to make friends running flashpoints that I can seek out to run more in the future. Such additional technology would be needed as statistically speaking I would be unable to count on grouping with people from my own server. Similarly it also has to allow for cross-server ignore lists that prevent an ignored player from joining.

A format similar to Blizzard's Real ID software would be of use here then, and they currently allow you to ignore a player from another server and never be grouped with them again, so that could easily be introduced here also.

 

 

3. Add "guild ignore" so that if I determine that every time I've grouped with a given guild its sucked I can ignore that guild and no one in it will be added to my PUG.

That could be a bit more tricky to impliment, however I'm sure it could be done.

 

 

4. Allow for server transfers so if I find a cool guild on another server I can join it without having to reroll. Ideally such a transfer should be free (limited number allowed per month or quarter or year) OR a guild would itself become cross-server.

Server Transfers are in the works

 

 

5. Allow people to specify which servers they specifically wanted to include in the search or specifically exclude from the search - perhaps by category. So people on RP-PvE servers would all go into their own queue, RP-PvP into their own queue, PvE into their own queue, and PvP into their own queue.

Again I have no problems with this.

 

 

6. Also include queueing for Heroic Missions, World Arcs, and Class Missions. Since these missions are either not instanced (or not completely instanced) or only really doable for people on the same server the rewards for queueing and completing these missions should be higher than whatever rewards are given for completing purely instanced flashpoints in order to incentivize using the tool for more than just "levelling via flashpoints only".

That does make more sense however not all heroic quests take part in instanced areas, so that would be more difficult to do.

 

 

7. All of the additional safeguards against bad player behavior that WoW and Rift had to add. Examples: class-restricted NBG looting, safeguards on abusing vote-kick, punishments for bailing on a group early, etc.

They need to add those anyway. Currently in a group you can need on everything that drops and only the group leader can kick someone. So yes to those as well.

 

I can't believe it, we actually completely agreed for once! See, there is hope for comrpomising yet.

[Esproc]

I only use the 'no evidence' stance against people who shout about how the Group Finder destroyed something and state it as a fact. It can't be a fact without evidence.

 

I still vote for a Group Finder with the options of Group Finder or Single Server so that the player gets to choose how they wish to use it.

 

No.

 

And you still have provided any proof what so ever for your belief that the system works as you claim.

 

WoW has found and admitted that they screwed up. They can't undo what they did, and they are currently trying to put a bandaid on the problem child they created.

 

Yes BW has to fix their problems that are in the grouping and loot in game. So they both need work. We need it fixed first before the blind start following the blind.

[chaosdefined]

No.

 

And you still have provided any proof what so ever for your belief that the system works as you claim.

 

WoW has found and admitted that they screwed up. They can't undo what they did, and they are currently trying to put a bandaid on the problem child they created.

 

Yes BW has to fix their problems that are in the grouping and loot in game. So they both need work. We need it fixed first before the blind start following the blind.

 

Oh for...

 

First you kept throwing up the video from the Guild summit of the top Guilds cheering at the news of a Single Server Group Finder (even though they won't use it) and kept pronouncing that as evidence the majority of the game didn't want cross-server.

 

Now you keep going on about some supposed quote from a Blizz dev saying the Group Finder was a mistake, yet you refuse to actually provide us with this quote and none of us can find it. Which only leads us to believe you are in fact lying about it.

 

Feel free to prove me wrong however.

 

But until then you have no argument at all.

Edited April 24, 2012 by chaosdefined

[Katahn]

Let's try it this way, since you seem incapable of understanding my argument and/or I am incapable of making it understandable.

Pot kettle black?

 

I said that either I am failing to make myself understood or you are failing to understand me. There was no accusation against you exclusively.

 

2. Allow for cross-server friend making, communication, and group-forming. In other words I want to be able to make friends running flashpoints that I can seek out to run more in the future. Such additional technology would be needed as statistically speaking I would be unable to count on grouping with people from my own server. Similarly it also has to allow for cross-server ignore lists that prevent an ignored player from joining.

A format similar to Blizzard's Real ID software would be of use here then, and they currently allow you to ignore a player from another server and never be grouped with them again, so that could easily be introduced here also.

 

Unacceptable - simply because I want to befriend someone on character "A" it does not mean I want to befriend them on all of my other characters. I want nothing more or less than the ability to befriend others on different servers and form groups with them the same way and with the same limitations that I can befriend them if we were on the same server.

 

In other words I want a choice other than "no friends" or "friends who can always find me no matter what".

 

6. Also include queueing for Heroic Missions, World Arcs, and Class Missions. Since these missions are either not instanced (or not completely instanced) or only really doable for people on the same server the rewards for queueing and completing these missions should be higher than whatever rewards are given for completing purely instanced flashpoints in order to incentivize using the tool for more than just "levelling via flashpoints only".

That does make more sense however not all heroic quests take part in instanced areas, so that would be more difficult to do.

 

Something would be needed to prevent people in SWTOR from following the well-established pattern we've seen happen in WoW and Rift in which the adventure zones become ghost towns. Human nature is such that when given the choice between

 

a) Effortless grouping (queue and go) with no need to travel (teleport to FP - this would be a necessity for XLFG) and every resource you might need during or between runs right there in the capitol (trainers, vendors, GTN, etc.)

 

b) Multiple loading screens, lots of travel (riding around on speeders) that can easily involve unwanted encounters (clip too close to aggro and you're in an "unecessary" fight) for sub-par loot (most of the time - minus rewards for heroics), and the possibility of being distant from resources you might want (such as trainers, vendors, GTN, etc.)

 

People overwhelmingly in WoW and Rift have selected "A" to the detriment of the game as a whole. Those games have devolved (or had as of when I quit playing both) into a sort of glorified lobby system.

 

My solution to avoid that would be to include non-flashpoint grouping along with the flashpoints and to heavily incentivize the use of the tool for non-flashpoint groups. I would also be willing to accept other limitations on such a tool as "limited number of uses per account or per character" or a cooldown of how long before you can use it again on the character you queued with. Basically anything that would act as a disincentive for people to follow the same pattern in SWTOR that they followed in WoW and Rift.

[Psiwuff]

I think the decline of adventure zones into ghost towns is an unavoidable part in the life of every MMO. Gradually, it grows top-heavy as less new subscribers/alts are played and people stick around for the endgame. Take everquest 2. A game without dungeon finder - up to the point where i played it anyways, i know it has one nowadays. But I played years before that point - yet the adventure zones are all but desolate wastelands, bereft of other players. Why? because 90% of the community is sitting at lvl 90 running heroics and raids, and dailies at times.

 

This is not inherently related to the LFG tool mechanic, it is primarily related to a natural progression. SWTOR sees the same thing. You play 1-2 alts, then most people get tired and focus on endgame content, never visiting the 1-49 related zones ever again.

 

From what I've seen in WoW - I played from cata launch up until 4.2, myself, pulling two characters to 85 and taking part in heroics (trolls included) and some light raiding - the adventure zones were reasonably populated compared to other MMOs I played. Among which was Rift shortly after release, EQ2, and some others. All of them had about the same population as far as I perceived it. This is a highly subjective point of view, but in the end, you are left with two choices:

a) Allow people to use the LFG tool, and thus accept that some - or many - will choose to level exclusively this way, especially alt characters, thus emptying adventure zones further

b) Deny everyone the use of LFG tools, and accept that barely anyone can complete group content for lack of people to be found, and that as such, you might see a weaker participation in endgame content, since again, you have to spam LFG for that as well

 

Given how - at least on my server, Sanctum of the Exalted (RP-PVP) - there already aren't enough people in the zones to run heroic world quests and barely enough people on the fleet to see any flashpoints being put together, I would rather select option A over B, since personally I would very much enjoy group content.

And the draining of adventure zones is an inevitable fact, though I will say that bioware has made me want to play the quest lines over flashpoints a lot more than other games, since they invest a lot of detail in them, and the voice over cutscenes help create atmosphere.

 

Edit: also I'm surprised Rift saw this so-called decline due to LFG. Because frankly, the game had a lot of fun going on with the full scale invasions and such. I enjoyed it, and was planning to go back for more after swtor ran its course for me eventually.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Psiwuff

[FriendlyTrooper]

No offence but you are not paying money to see the content, you are paying money for be able to play the game.

 

Just you are paying that doesn't mean you are entitled to everything you know

 

This type of comment are typical elites which i hate. This is why the "other game" developer comment that they made an instance which is about 4 yr ago so hard that only 5% of the whole pop get to see it and they felt is a waste of resources. Games develop content to let players enjoy not to force them to leave. Anyway the "other game" also made another mistake during last yr when 20% sub lost cause of ppl with ur mentality. less sub is = bad for business.

[thominoh]

I would rather have MORE open world activities to do, then sit around using LFD .. Is this suppose to be a lobby based game? So many devs and players are stuck on this "follow the numbers" quest mechanic, I'm afraid people forgot how to utilize the open world.. When you go to a park, do you see numbers on a path telling you where to go next?

 

/shrug

[tkinnunzero]

I would rather have MORE open world activities to do, then sit around using LFD .. Is this suppose to be a lobby based game

 

Being able to pop into a Flashpoint from anywhere is going to mean more people playing alts and thus more people going planetside for at least their new alts' class quests. And who knows, now that they're out in the world maybe they'll do some grouping if they feel like it.