Attempted theorycrafting - Knockback and lag

[Crowleyz]

So, I'm probably not the only one to have gotten slightly annoyed or amused at the knockback functionality in this game and how it seems to behave sometimes. I've been knocked over the goal-line and scored in Huttball several times, I have attempted to knock people off the bridge in Voidstar only to have them go flying straight behind me when I perceived them on my screen as being directly in front of me. I decided to attempt some theorycrafting on this issue which might shed some light on what is actually going on, and hopefully start a constructive discussion on the subject which might actually lead to some improvements. Do feel free to correct me on any errors I might have made, but please do so in a constructive manner.

 

Now, I am basing this upon a typical situation in a PvP environment where one player is attempting to use his knockback upon an enemy player:

 

My own crude tests showed that with no sprint it takes about 5 seconds to walk 30 meters ingame. If we then divide 30 by 5 we get an ICMS(in combat movement speed) of aproximately 6 meters per second.

 

Now, if we account for the "average" lag of players in game, call it 75 ms(took some very limited samples then added a bit as a safety margin, feel free to flame me for lazy research), for a total of 150 ms between two players plus let's say 100 ms for the server to figure things out. As already mentioned, please feel free to correct me here as I am in no way an expert of such things, and these are very general numbers for easy visualization and calculation.

Anyway, this gives us a constant "lag" of 250 ms compared to what we actually see happening, so 1/4 of a second.

 

Now we combine this with the movement speed mentioned earlier, which means a player at any given time should be able to move 6 x 0,25 = 1,5 meters in any direction relative to where you can actually see them.

 

We can now devise this information into the following grid, using the trooper knockback as an example since it has no animation time:

 

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac344/Takomuhra/Knockback.jpg

 

Please note: Relative player size is much greater than it appears in the picture(Objects may appear smaller than they actually are )

 

In this example the victim, or knockback-ee if you will, has moved directly forwards 1,5 meters from his current position relative to where the knockbacker saw him on his screen. Can the knockback-er anticipate this? In some cases yes, but there are a lot of situations where a root ends, a cc ends or the person was actually standing still until the knockback-er walked over to give him a good rogering with his knockback.

 

So, is there a way to fix this? Some games have a process tree on actions originating from the client side which actually tells the server what the person controlling the client(Player 1) is experiencing. The server then forces the actions of Player 1 upon the victim(Player 2), regardless of what Player 2 perceived as the actual "truth". If you've ever been shot behind a wall in Battlefield, you know what I mean(often referred to as a "lag-kill"). Simple fact of the matter is it would be almost impossible to hit anything in FPS-games like Battlefield unless the system worked in this manner.

 

Now there are arguements both pro and against this being implemented in SW:TOR, most commonly found are "The victim is more important, what he sees should matter" and "The attacker has no idea where he might be, impossible to use skills effectively" and of course "Leave it as it is". I personally favour option #2, the attackers perception is the prevalent one, and what he does to his opponent matters the most. The reason for this is because I am a very competitive player, and I like to be able to use my skills the way they are intended to be used and prevent or inflict what I intend to. I also am not happy with having to resort to excessive safety margins simply to make sure I don't completely bungle the game for my own team when I'm actually trying my best to help us.

 

Now, I'm sure there are many like me who have adapted to this and are employing our own measures to ensure we don't hurt our team, though the help we provide is somewhat limited because of this. But are we really happy with doing that?

 

No idea if this will generate interest or not, but it is an issue that holds a great deal of importance to me relative to the competitive PvP they plan on introducing.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Crowleyz

[Ttoon]

Good post, makes sense.

 

Happens to me all the time, especially on Huttball.

 

I was gonna record it, because I thought I was cracking up, the opponent is a yard in front of me, and it somehow knocks him/her behind me. Ive had abuse in the past, people accusing me of helping the opponents. Its usually a double whammy, because my knock back benefits them and tops up their resolve.

[muzzle_flash]

This is especially irritating when you line up a good knockback and a mixture of dodgy server lag, and a train-wreck garbage-heap of an engine steals it from you

[Crowleyz]

Happens to me all the time, especially on Huttball.

 

Yes, this is where the greatest source of annoyance and amusement comes from me as well. Been punted over the goal line several times and doubling up on cc before I dare kb the enemy carrier. And even then it sometimes goes horribly, horribly wrong.

[Crowleyz]

I feel this thread got buried a bit quickly, would love some more comments and viewpoints on this matter, as it is something that I feel will virtually make or break competitive PvP in SW:TOR.

[xDJFx]

I have experienced this issue as well.

 

I am, very fortunately, always under 100ms. Usually between 20 and 60ms and my framerate never drops below 30 in warzones (I don't really know what it is because I have never had a problem with FPS, thankfully).

 

Server lag in SWTOR:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGaWuvWWf8s&feature=related

 

 

In WoW, if you attempt to sap a mounted player, you will sometimes see the character "slide" when they get sapped. They've been sapped, but their precise position is a little uncertain until they stop sliding. However, you still get an update of that player's position as they slide. Lag will happen, but WoW is much better at helping us adapt to it.

 

 

In SWTOR, you get no update of position at all, until its too late. What's especially disconcerting about the above example is the way the player opens first with a stun, waits to ensure position is secure, and THEN activates the knockback only for it to still fail. I've personally experienced this many times: set up an overload with electrocute, wait a few SECONDS, only to have it send my enemy in the wrong direction.. Seconds are HUGE in PVP. Gigantic.

[Crowleyz]

Aye, and competitive PvP needs precision in order to be truly competetive and interest the serious PvP crowd. I just feel that if this is left as it is at the moment, proper PvP in SWTOR will remain somewhat of a gimmick. There are a lot of knockbacks in this game, and there are a lot of ledges. I do believe Bioware intended for there to be a relation between the two, but seeing how this actually functions within the game, I am beginning to wonder if this was just a happy accident.