Again no love for Commandos in the patch 1.1.5?

[Aritok]

Well. Letting run the subcription out it seems. No help for commandos = no love for Bioware.

Waiting week after week for fixes made me total lose my faith in Bioware.

 

This patch even is a total joke. No OPS fix. No PVP fix. No commando fix. No Faction imbalance fix. NOTHING AT ALL!

 

And dont tell me 1.2 will fix everything, and will be the ultimate help. It will make everything just worse when they add new stuff without fixing the old first. Week after week where they dont change and remove the problems, it will make it worse and worse.

[Gradywhite]

Any specifics on what you're complaining about or just vague, blanket statements?

[Nytak]

OK.. 1.2 won't fix everything.

 

But it will have some juicy Commando changes in it..

[Kinetixx]

The amount of people with zero patience for new games absolutely astounds me.

[Spikespeigl]

The amount of people with zero patience for new games absolutely astounds me.

right here ^

[Kassamina]

OK.. 1.2 won't fix everything.

 

But it will have some juicy Commando changes in it..

 

 

lol what changs??? grav round can't be interrupted?? that will never happen thats the only fix that needs to happen. with out grav round the gunnery spec is crap

[RuQu]

Well. Letting run the subcription out it seems. No help for commandos = no love for Bioware.

Waiting week after week for fixes made me total lose my faith in Bioware.

 

This patch even is a total joke. No OPS fix. No PVP fix. No commando fix. No Faction imbalance fix. NOTHING AT ALL!

 

And dont tell me 1.2 will fix everything, and will be the ultimate help. It will make everything just worse when they add new stuff without fixing the old first. Week after week where they dont change and remove the problems, it will make it worse and worse.

 

Since 1.2 has been scheduled for mid-March, and its current Feb 28...perhaps most significant changes are in a major patch, where you would expect them to be, and not in the weekly bug fix patches?

 

Perhaps 1.2 won't fix everything, but with the patch coming so soon, is now a rational time for such hyperbolic doomsaying? Perhaps switch the sub to monthly instead of 3-6, if your resub is coming soon, and wait 2 weeks? If you are paying on a 3 or 6 month plan, your resub shouldn't be soon yet anyway, so why bother with posts like this?

[Freeborne]

They've already said that the animation team is creating a new (faster) animation for Mortar Volley to bring it up to par with Bounty Hunters.

 

 

Other than that, I can't think of a single fix our class needs.

[Buckit]

Are the patch notes up on swtor.com somewhere? I can't find them. At work so I can't read them from the launcher.

[RuQu]

Are the patch notes up on swtor.com somewhere? I can't find them. At work so I can't read them from the launcher.

 

PTS notes are up. I tend to read them over on darthhater.com, since the put up a new listing when the notes update so I don't have to keep checking on the PTS forums.

[DarthGrimmith]

lol what changs??? grav round can't be interrupted?? that will never happen thats the only fix that needs to happen. with out grav round the gunnery spec is crap

 

 

I assume the grav round comment is referring to pvp and all I can say is if you were serious about pvp you would know that when something is high damage and or healing and is able to be interrupted , the best thing to do is fake cast.

 

Problem solved.

Edited February 28, 2012 by DarthGrimmith

[Nytak]

lol what changs??? grav round can't be interrupted?? that will never happen thats the only fix that needs to happen. with out grav round the gunnery spec is crap

 

You do realize you get an instant one every couple min, and a free one as well...

 

Uninterruptable? Come on now, Commando's are tough enough in PVP as is, that would cross well into the OP realm there.

 

We are getting new animations. For mortar volley at least, however if I recall, Georg Zoeller used the plural, which means quite a few tweaks to bring us more in line w/ our imperial conterpart.

 

What else do you want, a big red 'I Win' button? We got one pretty darn close already, it's called full auto.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Nytak

[Calavero]

My guess is he wants an interrupt for PVP. If he thinks the class is broken because it doesn't have one and he's willing to quit over it, might as well tell him to get gone now.

 

Mortar Volley's animation change has been confirmed for 1.2.

 

Aside from that, I have no idea what he's crying about. Overall, I'm thinking this is a PEBKAC issue, to be honest.

[RuQu]

My guess is he wants an interrupt for PVP. If he thinks the class is broken because it doesn't have one and he's willing to quit over it, might as well tell him to get gone now.

 

Mortar Volley's animation change has been confirmed for 1.2.

 

Aside from that, I have no idea what he's crying about. Overall, I'm thinking this is a PEBKAC issue, to be honest.

 

Lack of an interrupt is more than a PvP issue. Lots of boss mechanics require interrupts, both in FPs and the bosses of quest chains. A post by Georg Zoeller a month or so ago made it clear that proper interrupt usage is intended for those quest bosses (he was explicit about lockout interrupts, not KB or stuns), yet Commandos/Mercs are the only AC without one.

[Calavero]

This isn't WoW (thankfully). Every class doesn't get the exact same kit of abilities that all do the exact same thing, just with different names.

 

Commandos can keep one mob CC'ed indefinitely, and can talent to keep a second mob CC'ed as well with the 15 second overlap. Many classes can't CC anything for more than a few seconds.

 

There's a long list of utility skills in this game that some classes offer a PVP team or a raid that others don't. That's not an oversight, it's by design. You can disagree with that design; there's nothing wrong with that, but some people aren't going to agree that your opinion indicates that there is something wrong or "broken" with the class.

 

Heck, you can even throw a baby fit on the forums about it (like the OP did) and threaten to quit the game! It's your subscription, to do whatever you want with.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Calavero

[dejavy]

Nothing is broken in commando except his stupid mechanic in general. Spaming whatever is a bad design for any MMO. I rerolled to vanguard dps - happy as a dinosaur.

[KaneBlueriver]

Yep I agree there is nothing worng with my commando. It's just as simple as learning how to use it. I admit at first I thought that there was something wrong with it. But I realize I was just playing it wrong. Seriously make sure your build matches your play style. Hope you dont quit the game just because of that dude.

[RuQu]

This isn't WoW (thankfully). Every class doesn't get the exact same kit of abilities that all do the exact same thing, just with different names.

 

Commandos can keep one mob CC'ed indefinitely, and can talent to keep a second mob CC'ed as well with the 15 second overlap. Many classes can't CC anything for more than a few seconds.

 

There's a long list of utility skills in this game that some classes offer a PVP team or a raid that others don't. That's not an oversight, it's by design. You can disagree with that design; there's nothing wrong with that, but some people aren't going to agree that your opinion indicates that there is something wrong or "broken" with the class.

 

Heck, you can even throw a baby fit on the forums about it (like the OP did) and threaten to quit the game! It's your subscription, to do whatever you want with.

 

Note this post by Georg Zoeller over in this thread.

 

We're looking at this.

 

A few general notes on challenging fights.

 

One of the most important aspects of higher level fights against elites is to counter their special abilities. You are required to use your interrupting abilities (e.g. Distraction on the Imperial Agent) in these fights to prevent these enemies from gaining the upper hand. In the short term, stuns and ballistic attacks/knockback will also help, but your interrupt abilities have the added benefit of preventing the target from using their special abilities.

...

 

Fight design expects you to have a true interrupt, not just a knockback or stun (which are mentioned as helping, but not being the interrupt he is talking about). That is something they assume everyone has when designing fights.

 

Only one AC lacks that ability: Commandos/Mercs.

 

That fights are designed with this in mind is important. I just did a quest on Quesh where the end of the chain boss was quite challenging for my Commando, but trivial for my Shadow. I had been looking forward to that fight, since it was a little epic battle for my Combat Medic, and it literally lasted 1.5 minutes total with no risk of death on the Shadow. Why? Interrupt blocked the huge amounts of damage my Commando couldn't avoid and that slaughtered my Commando's pet.

 

Yes, differences in class abilities can make things more interesting, but they also limit combat design if you can't assume an ability will be present. Or you assume it is, and it isn't, and those without have to struggle much more.

[Aritok]

First of all, i am combat medic. So the grav round spamming or something does not bother me at all.

Second: i dont care if we have an interrupt. Interrupt makes the healer part even worse, so i am happy we dont have one (healer view).

Third: missing a combat ress? Sad. I would love to have it. But I can as well live without one.

 

 

I am refering the part RuQu was already saying as well. Commando heal is a joke compared to Sage heal when it comes to AE heal with ops size. Or just even burst healing over short time (fights dont last long enough so a sage becomes problems as Trooper do with the ammo).

I am refering to the delay of the Mortar Volley. Even they said they working on it. As far as i know there was no word about 1.2.

Its the part that any sage healer, no matter how stupid he is, can heal in flashpoints. But for commandos its harder, and random groups look down on commando as healer.

 

 

Few stories?

EV last week. Healer were a scoundrel and me. Comment from Guild as we were at Soa? Ohh, no sage. Guess we have to leave. I was like ***????

I convinced them to do it without Sage. After 15 min of talking we tried, and won on first try.

Later in KP: Foreman Crusher. Tank was calling for the AE bubble from Smuggler. I tried to tell him, he cant die when i heal him. Not even in Frenzy. Just told him to stand still and eat the hits. he didnt belive me and said he need the bubble. Sidenote is that i healed several tanks at Foreman on Nightmare through frenzy without any smuggler. So i know that its possible.

 

Another Story?:

Pickup Group for HM Flashpoint (normaly i do it with guild, but sometimes as well with randoms to help).

General: Looking for healer for HM FP.

Me whisper guy: I am healer, and can help you.

Guy whispers back: No, we need a healer, not a commando.

Just told him good luck and added him to blacklist.

 

 

Its in the players mind, Sage = easy mega healer. Commando = can maybe heal as well.

I KNOW that a commando can heal really well. The problem is, the true strenght of the commandos are not viewable. They dont pop up in big heal numbers over the heads.

But these are not the parts that make me lose faith.

 

Its the small parts on it that make me go mad.

- The Stupid KB, that is always healing the players that are full HP, and not the tank that need it.

- The KB that only hit 3 targets, when a normal group has 4 player. Combined with any Sage that outheal us by a great factor with the AE heal.

- The Mortar Volley, that when used needs 2/3 of the channel time to start fire for the first time. So everyone has an eternity to run around in circles, laught at you, and than stun you, without you even having done any damage.

- Same with Full Auto

- The lack of fixed CC for PVP. Root does not count against resolve? You can get stunned, stunned, rooted, rooted and nothing you can do against it? (Not even a Trooper only Problem).

- The imbalance in CC for PVP. Trooper have clearly to few. And these even add resolve and dont work on someone with full resolve.

- And even this stupid meaningless **** as the bonus mission that is still in my quest book but cant be finished or removed.

- And i dont even want to start with all the additional **** they are not fixing that are not even trooper related. Not even want to start with stuff like: interrogator, who was said to be fixed but never was. This list will be endless.

 

Yes. 1.2 was said to come out in march. The 1.1.5 is announced as well. After they didnt it add yesterday, it will most likly come out next downtime. This give them, lets say, 2 weeks untill 1.2.

And from experience i can tell you, that problems / bugs / errors didnt got fixed untill the next content patch, they are never fixed at all.

So why bother to wait for fixes that will never come.

[RuQu]

First of all, i am combat medic. So the grav round spamming or something does not bother me at all.

Second: i dont care if we have an interrupt. Interrupt makes the healer part even worse, so i am happy we dont have one (healer view).

Third: missing a combat ress? Sad. I would love to have it. But I can as well live without one.

 

 

I am refering the part RuQu was already saying as well. Commando heal is a joke compared to Sage heal when it comes to AE heal with ops size. Or just even burst healing over short time (fights dont last long enough so a sage becomes problems as Trooper do with the ammo).

I am refering to the delay of the Mortar Volley. Even they said they working on it. As far as i know there was no word about 1.2.

Its the part that any sage healer, no matter how stupid he is, can heal in flashpoints. But for commandos its harder, and random groups look down on commando as healer.

 

 

 

They have said new Mortar Volley animation (among others but MV was said specifically) are coming in 1.2 to deal with the animation delay problem.

 

They have said the cap is being raised for KB (didnt say what to) in 1.2.

 

How does an interrupt make healing worse? Solo it means less self-healing. In groups, this would just let DPS Commandos interrupt, which, again, is only a benefit. Without target of target macros, assigning your healer interrupt duty is a pretty bad idea at the moment.

[Calavero]

Note this post by Georg Zoeller over in this thread.

 

 

 

Fight design expects you to have a true interrupt, not just a knockback or stun (which are mentioned as helping, but not being the interrupt he is talking about). That is something they assume everyone has when designing fights.

 

Only one AC lacks that ability: Commandos/Mercs.

 

That fights are designed with this in mind is important. I just did a quest on Quesh where the end of the chain boss was quite challenging for my Commando, but trivial for my Shadow. I had been looking forward to that fight, since it was a little epic battle for my Combat Medic, and it literally lasted 1.5 minutes total with no risk of death on the Shadow. Why? Interrupt blocked the huge amounts of damage my Commando couldn't avoid and that slaughtered my Commando's pet.

 

Yes, differences in class abilities can make things more interesting, but they also limit combat design if you can't assume an ability will be present. Or you assume it is, and it isn't, and those without have to struggle much more.

 

You're assuming the fights were balanced around having interrupts. That is not what he was actually saying. What he said, quite literally, is that interrupts prevent a lot of incoming damage - nothing more. That they are required is your interpretation.

 

Shadows can interrupt with the best of them, but they have no inherent self healing. Even a non Combat Medic Commando has excellent healing abilities. One may favor your playstyle more than the other, but in my eyes it's an even trade.

 

Given the choice of abilities available to the Shadow and the Commando, I'll take the Commando every time (I did, actually, I deleted my Shadow around level 20. I Just didn't like how it played). The Shadow seemed difficult to me, while the Commando came naturally and felt easier. I have a Merc BH that I leveled solo, did Flashpoints and Hard Mode Operations with enough to get full Columi/half Rakata gear on, and my Commando is currently lv 42. I have yet to find any solo quest boss even remotely difficult, on either character, and I routinely solo my Heroic 2+ quests as I get them while leveling.

 

Perhaps the opposite is true for you. Maybe you weren't playing the fight right. Maybe you had the wrong companion out. Maybe the Shadow playstyle just "feels right" to you and the Commando playstyle doesn't.

 

That still doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the class. I realize I'm not going to change your opinion on whether we need an interrupt, but I am offering the point of view that we have plenty of other strengths (many of which interrupt-enabled classes don't have) to offset this. In fact, I have to admit I find your statement that we "have to struggle much more" a bit ridiculous. After leveling a Sniper and bailing on a Shadow, playing my Merc/Commando does feel like I am playing a class that is a bit broken - except that it's overpowered, not underpowered.

[RuQu]

You're assuming the fights were balanced around having interrupts. That is not what he was actually saying. What he said, quite literally, is that interrupts prevent a lot of incoming damage - nothing more. That they are required is your interpretation.

 

Read this line from the GZ quote again:

You are required to use your interrupting abilities (e.g. Distraction on the Imperial Agent) in these fights to prevent these enemies from gaining the upper hand.

 

I highlighted the relevant word in his post...

 

To assume that when he said "required" he meant "it would be nice" isn't just misinterpretation of an ambiguous statement, it is completely changing what he said. What he said, quite literally, explicitly, and exactly, is that they are required. What you interpreted that as is "they prevent a lot of damage." While your interpretation is correct (they do prevent a lot of damage,) that doesn't negate him explicitly using the same word I used, that is, "required."

 

Shadows can interrupt with the best of them, but they have no inherent self healing. Even a non Combat Medic Commando has excellent healing abilities. One may favor your playstyle more than the other, but in my eyes it's an even trade.

 

This isn't a healing vs interrupting debate. The only AC without an interrupt is Commando/Merc, which means Sages and Scoundrels (the other healers) all have heals and an interrupt. The fights aren't designed around "prevent OR heal the damage" they are designed with the assumption you will prevent that massive attack. We are the only AC that can't.

 

Given the choice of abilities available to the Shadow and the Commando, I'll take the Commando every time (I did, actually, I deleted my Shadow around level 20. I Just didn't like how it played). The Shadow seemed difficult to me, while the Commando came naturally and felt easier. I have a Merc BH that I leveled solo, did Flashpoints and Hard Mode Operations with enough to get full Columi/half Rakata gear on, and my Commando is currently lv 42. I have yet to find any solo quest boss even remotely difficult, on either character, and I routinely solo my Heroic 2+ quests as I get them while leveling.

 

Perhaps the opposite is true for you. Maybe you weren't playing the fight right. Maybe you had the wrong companion out. Maybe the Shadow playstyle just "feels right" to you and the Commando playstyle doesn't.

 

Agreed, Commandos are very hard to kill, and a heal is something I miss when playing my Shadow. We have a lot of tricks on hand to stay alive. That doesn't change the fact that it takes a lot of self-healing to counter the hard hitting spells we can't interrupt and everyone else can.

 

That still doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the class. I realize I'm not going to change your opinion on whether we need an interrupt, but I am offering the point of view that we have plenty of other strengths (many of which interrupt-enabled classes don't have) to offset this. In fact, I have to admit I find your statement that we "have to struggle much more" a bit ridiculous. After leveling a Sniper and bailing on a Shadow, playing my Merc/Commando does feel like I am playing a class that is a bit broken - except that it's overpowered, not underpowered.

 

You say "interrupt-enabled classes" as if there was a list of classes with and without. What you meant to say there was "EVERY OTHER CLASS." Now, I'm a pretty big Commando fan (see that sticky up top with my name on it?), but I'd be interested to know what capability we have that no other class has that offsets the lack of a mechanic that the design team assumes everyone has. Note that there are HM FPs where interrupts are key, and if you bring too many Commandos you simply cannot interrupt as needed. We are the only class that suffers from that, any other class can be stacked with no such consequence.

 

I understand that you like the class and there is a popular subculture that prides itself on denying the existence of any flaws or room for improvement. That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the game is designed with the assumption of certain mechanics being present for players, and then they forgot to give that mechanic to 1 AC.

[Calavero]

 

I understand that you like the class and there is a popular subculture that prides itself on denying the existence of any flaws or room for improvement. That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the game is designed with the assumption of certain mechanics being present for players, and then they forgot to give that mechanic to 1 AC.

 

I believe Commando/Mercs not having an interrupt was a design decision. Would I like one if it was given to us? Sure I would. However, when a game takes 7 years, hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to create and develop, I find the idea that they just "forgot to give us an interrupt" is a little ludicrous.

 

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I believe the term you rather eloquently described above is "fanboy", and I assure you I'm anything but. I was simply pointing out that lack of an interrupt hasn't been the slightest problem for me playing solo, nor has it been an issue in FP/Op content, due to the abundance of other classes that can interrupt.

 

This conversation had been entertaining, but frankly I'd rather play the game than argue about it any more.

[RuQu]

I believe Commando/Mercs not having an interrupt was a design decision. Would I like one if it was given to us? Sure I would. However, when a game takes 7 years, hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to create and develop, I find the idea that they just "forgot to give us an interrupt" is a little ludicrous.

 

 

With anything as complicated as this game, the idea that there weren't mistakes and oversights is far more ludicrous than one team designing content around interrupts and another design team lining up lists of knockbacks, stuns, slows, CCs, and interrupts and making classes have a mix, which happened to wipe the interrupt Team A was assuming out of one class, and then it never got put back.

 

So I suppose we probably agree that someone made that design decision...but that doesn't mean it wasn't an oversight.

[Warkyd]

You're assuming the fights were balanced around having interrupts.

Ever do Ironfist in HM Eseless?

How about Darth Malgus on hardmode?

 

If by balanced you mean required; then yes, fights are balanced around interrupts.

 

Still waiting for the fix on mortal volley's damage.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Warkyd