Question about deep assault pvp

[Culhaven]

I am only mid 30's on my vanguard, but I have already noticed that one of the main focuses is to setup Ionic Accelerator for a HIB proc.

 

This makes HIB more important than I first thought.

 

I have designated 3 points to spend in Shield Spec tree. I was planning on putting them into Intimidation, but now am not sure if 2 points in Brutal Impact would be of more benefit.

 

So +4% elemental damage vs 6% HIB, with the goal of setting up the best burst possible for pvp.

 

Are there any deep assault pvp's, who have tested both care to enlighten?

 

*Edit

 

I guess I have a second question, or more of a curiosity.

 

When IA procs a free HIB, do you still get 1 cell generated from High Friction Bolts?

Edited February 17, 2012 by Culhaven

[Peytona]

Assault balances both sustained and burst damage, primarily through DoTs and HiB respectively.

 

If you are forced to choose between Intimidation and Brutal Impact, the latter is more valuable in PvP scenarios. However, ideally both should be taken.

 

Note that before either of these skills are considered, be sure to pick up Focused Impact in tier one of the Tactics tree.

 

In answer to your second question, provided you have the tier one skill Ionised Ignition, Ion Pulse will render your target ablaze and therefore the use of any HiB (including those granted through Ionic Accelerator) on that target will result in an ammo gain.

[Culhaven]

Thanks Peytona.

 

I decided I want Assault Plastique and Blaster Augs from Tactics, so that only leaves me 3 pts for Shield Spec.

 

I do also have one point in Reflective Shield (32 total in Assault) which I might consider moving, but at this point I will plan on 2 pts in Brutal and 1 in Intim. because the more I play this spec and think about it, the more I want HIB to hit as hard as possible.

 

Thanks again.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Culhaven

[IntaLou]

Blaster Augs is not worth getting over 9% aim, 3% crit on your tech abilities is hardly worth any consideration as assault. This is the spec that I use for PvP:http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZ0MZfhrbdhGMs.1. It's the most fun I've had in any vanguard pvp spec.

[Culhaven]

Blaster Augs is not worth getting over 9% aim, 3% crit on your tech abilities is hardly worth any consideration as assault. This is the spec that I use for PvP:http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZ0MZfhrbdhGMs.1. It's the most fun I've had in any vanguard pvp spec.

 

But it is not just 3% crit because you are also giving up Demolition.

 

Giving up 9% crit on most of your abilities plus 20% armor pen is not even close to being made up for by gaining 9% AIM.

 

Next time you respec, write down your damage/crit specs before and after taking Steely Resolve. I don't think you are getting as much increase as you think.

 

While I would love to have enough points to get it, the costs are too high.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Culhaven

[IntaLou]

I've played as both specs (the one you're talking about using and the one I linked). As an assault spec you are really only using 2 abilities that are effected by the 3 points in demolition and blaster augs. They are a waste of talent points, especially when you get the 4pc from the pvp gear (15% stock strike crit chance) and are using less ion pulse. Aim helps with overall damage of all your abilities, it's a no brainer imo. Edited February 18, 2012 by IntaLou

[Culhaven]

I've played as both specs (the one you're talking about using and the one I linked). As an assault spec you are really only using 2 abilities that are effected by the 3 points in demolition and blaster augs. They are a waste of talent points, especially when you get the 4pc from the pvp gear (15% stock strike crit chance) and are using less ion pulse. Aim helps with overall damage of all your abilities, it's a no brainer imo.

 

As you seem to like to use Ion Cell with your Assault spec, I can understand why these talents and maximizing Plasma Cell damage via high crit rate are not important to you.

 

I am glad you enjoy that play-style, but it is not for me.

[Peytona]

I've played as both specs (the one you're talking about using and the one I linked). As an assault spec you are really only using 2 abilities that are effected by the 3 points in demolition and blaster augs. They are a waste of talent points, especially when you get the 4pc from the pvp gear (15% stock strike crit chance) and are using less ion pulse. Aim helps with overall damage of all your abilities, it's a no brainer imo.

 

Demolition and Blaster Augs are solid choices, and should be taken in preference to Steely Resolve.

 

Tech Crit affects all yellow damage we deal, so basically everything other than Hammer Shot and HiB. Slightly more than "2 abilities" taking into account that DoTs can crit.

 

6% Elemental and 3% Tech Crit > 9% Aim all day long.

 

3/3 in Focused Impact is also a must before considering anything in the SS tree.

 

Also, why are you using the Combat Tech set for an Assault spec?

[Malvantyr]

Also, why are you using the Combat Tech set for an Assault spec?

 

Owned

[Kesrik]

Also, why are you using the Combat Tech set for an Assault spec?

 

Why wouldn't you use Combat Tech set for Assault? Increasing the duration of your AoE stun by 20% and reducing the CD of your CC break by 15 seconds is comparable to 15% extra crit on an ability that already has upwards of 35% crit. HIB crit goes up to 60% while you have your CDs popped. Also, the extra crit on Stock Strike isn't completely wasted, whereas the 2 piece Eliminator's set is worthless.

[Peytona]

Why wouldn't you use Combat Tech set for Assault? Increasing the duration of your AoE stun by 20% and reducing the CD of your CC break by 15 seconds is comparable to 15% extra crit on an ability that already has upwards of 35% crit. HIB crit goes up to 60% while you have your CDs popped. Also, the extra crit on Stock Strike isn't completely wasted, whereas the 2 piece Eliminator's set is worthless.

 

20% increased duration on an ability on a 45 second cd, and reducing the cd by 12.5% on Tenacity and 15% crit on SS does not come close to comparable with 15% crit on the core ability of Assault.

 

Why do you consider additional crit chance above 35% to be undesirable? It is in fact the opposite. Diminishing returns for crit rating really comes into play above the 30% mark, so having a 15% flat increase (which completely avoids DR) is a godsend.

Combine this with a 25% flat increase from Battle Focus, and we are provided with some of the scariest burst in the game.

 

Crit chance on HiB also provides further synergy with our Skill Tree. Skills like Assault Trooper and (the extremely underrated) Adrenaline Fueled become more valuable as crit chance increases (and you'll be using HiB a hell of a lot more than SS).

 

If the resolve system is improved so that Roots/Snares are affected by the Resolve Bar, then a reduced cd on Tenacity would be more valuable.

 

As things stand, you can't look past Eliminator for a deep Assault spec imo.

[Kesrik]

[TL;DR at the bottom!]

 

What does an extra .5 seconds on your aoe stun do? It lets your healer get off 2 complete casts instead of just 1 while everyone around him is stunned. It lets your team disarm a door in Void Star while everyone around them is stunned. That .5 seconds wins games.

 

Let's add to that 15 seconds off your CC break. Add to that 15% extra crit to Stock Strike, which makes up for some of the damage you lose by not using Eliminator's 4 set. Yes, you don't hit as hard. However, you gain utility that will literally win games.

 

The choice between gear sets is almost like the choice between Demolition and Containment Tactics. Sure, you hit harder with 6% extra Elemental crit. You win games because Cryo Grenade came off CD.

 

Edit:

 

Why do you consider additional crit chance above 35% to be undesirable? It is in fact the opposite. Diminishing returns for crit rating really comes into play above the 30% mark, so having a 15% flat increase (which completely avoids DR) is a godsend.

 

Extra crit isn't just undesirable because the stat DRs. It also experiences a decay in actual effect. Consider this: When you have 30% crit, and you add 25% (Battle Focus), you essentially increasing your chance to crit by 83%. However, when you have 45% crit (4 set), and you add 25% crit, you only increase your chance to crit by 56%. As you can see, the more crit you have, extra crit has less of an impact in how much you actually crit. Thus, using the 4-set Commando gear actually devalues the impact of your Battle Focus.

 

Crit chance on HiB also provides further synergy with our Skill Tree. Skills like Assault Trooper and (the extremely underrated) Adrenaline Fueled become more valuable as crit chance increases (and you'll be using HiB a hell of a lot more than SS).

 

What you fail to take into consideration is that we already crit a lot with HIB. Adding 15% extra crit to 1 ability doesn't magically jump our damage up by a huge amount. Also, the reason people rate Adrenaline Fueled very low is because it is bad. It decreases the CD on Reserve Powercell (saves you a max of 3 ammo) and Adrenaline Rush (15% of max hp over 10 seconds that is also decreased by Trauma. Ends up being roughly 2100 health over 10 seconds when you have full BM gear). Reducing the CD on two very lackluster abilities isn't amazing.

 

If the resolve system is improved so that Roots/Snares are affected by the Resolve Bar, then a reduced cd on Tenacity would be more valuable.

 

What does snares/roots not being affected by Resolve have to do with anything? Are you trying to suggest that breaking CC isn't that important because you can be snared and CCed right after? Last I checked, you can stop a node tap while rooted/snared. You can't if you are CCed.

 

[TL;DR] - The 15% extra crit on HIB looks good on paper, but it doesn't actually improve your performance by all that much. You still do a massive amount of burst with the Combat Tech set, but you add to that the ability to win games via utility.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Kesrik

[Riulassher]

In order to get a killing burst you need to chain crits together and anything that increases your odds is invaluable.

 

A chance that Assault Plastique and High Impact Bolt will crit together without buffs is 12% ( two 35% chances to crit). Add Battle Focus and you will have 36% chance to create a double crit.

 

When adding +15% chance to HIB, an unbuffed chance to dual crit will be 17.5% and with Battle Focus 45% chance.

 

These odds are a lot better.

 

---

Combat Tech gives a bonus to Stockstrike, but boosting HIB is more important for Assult specs. The ability hits harder and can be used more often.

[Kesrik]

In order to get a killing burst you need to chain crits together and anything that increases your odds is invaluable.

 

A chance that Assault Plastique and High Impact Bolt will crit together without buffs is 12% ( two 35% chances to crit). Add Battle Focus and you will have 36% chance to create a double crit.

 

When adding +15% chance to HIB, an unbuffed chance to dual crit will be 17.5% and with Battle Focus 45% chance.

 

These odds are a lot better.

 

---

Combat Tech gives a bonus to Stockstrike, but boosting HIB is more important for Assult specs. The ability hits harder and can be used more often.

 

Why do you keep ignoring the massive amount of utility that the 2 piece gives you? In full Combat Tech, I still have no problems killing anyone. To be honest, most crits are overkill anyways (a 5k HIB on a target with only 2k hp left).

 

If anything, I would go 2 piece Combat Tech + 2 piece Combat Medic just to pick up the extra 3 seconds on Reactive Shield. Just swap out the enhancements and you are good to go.

[Peytona]

What does an extra .5 seconds on your aoe stun do? It lets your healer get off 2 complete casts instead of just 1 while everyone around him is stunned. It lets your team disarm a door in Void Star while everyone around them is stunned. That .5 seconds wins games.

 

First, due to reaction times, game ability delays and lag, and a lack of gap closers for melee classes, the chances are that a healer will be able to successfully cast twice without the extra .5 seconds.

 

Second, the 'wins games' argument is incredibly situational, and could in fact be used against your case.

Scenario: Your team is defending a node on Alderaan. You need two consecutive critical hits to burst an enemy healer down. Because of your lower crit chance, you fail to do so and the healer proceeds to heal enemy dps. You lose the node, and subsequently lose the game.

 

Utility wins game. Higher damage output wins games. Same argument.

 

Let's add to that 15 seconds off your CC break. Add to that 15% extra crit to Stock Strike, which makes up for some of the damage you lose by not using Eliminator's 4 set.

 

The choice between gear sets is almost like the choice between Demolition and Containment Tactics. Sure, you hit harder with 6% extra Elemental crit. You win games because Cryo Grenade came off CD.

 

In general, you will be using SS once for every three HiBs. Add to that the fact that it hits for roughly half the damage of HiB, and you'll agree that the damage lost is far more significant than you are letting on.

 

Don't even mention the 10 seconds off CG cd. One extra ST stun every 6mins is a terrible return for 2 skill points. Fact.

 

 

Extra crit isn't just undesirable because the stat DRs. It also experiences a decay in actual effect. Consider this: When you have 30% crit, and you add 25% (Battle Focus), you essentially increasing your chance to crit by 83%. However, when you have 45% crit (4 set), and you add 25% crit, you only increase your chance to crit by 56%. As you can see, the more crit you have, extra crit has less of an impact in how much you actually crit. Thus, using the 4-set Commando gear actually devalues the impact of your Battle Focus.

 

This is true, but irrelevant. 15% crit is 15% crit, regardless of your current crit chance.

 

The ability to avoid DR (in such a large scale, and on Assault's primary ability) is invaluable.

 

Again, the exact same argument could be used against your case for the 15% crit on SS.

 

 

The reason people rate Adrenaline Fueled very low is because it is bad. It decreases the CD on Reserve Powercell (saves you a max of 3 ammo) and Adrenaline Rush (15% of max hp over 10 seconds that is also decreased by Trauma. Ends up being roughly 2100 health over 10 seconds when you have full BM gear). Reducing the CD on two very lackluster abilities isn't amazing.

 

Firstly, I find this comment strange given that you consider Containment Tactics to be a good investment of skill points.

 

With a sufficiently high crit chance on HiB, Adrenaline Fueled requires a 1 point investment to cut the cds on both Adrenaline Rush and Reserve Powercell by 50%.

 

Try balancing (for an equal investment) 4 extra uses of AR plus 6 extra uses of RP against 1 extra use of CG every 12mins. There is no contest.

 

 

What does snares/roots not being affected by Resolve have to do with anything? Are you trying to suggest that breaking CC isn't that important because you can be snared and CCed right after? Last I checked, you can stop a node tap while rooted/snared. You can't if you are CCed.

 

This is, again, highly situational.

 

My comment on Resolve was from the perspective of attacking enemy players, which is just as important a factor as targeting objectives.

 

Sorcerers alone have 10 or more forms of CC to keep you out of a 10yd range and therefore unable to reset the CD on HiB.

One extra CC breaker every 8mins is not going to solve this issue.

You are far better off maximising your damage output against targets during the limited time you are not CCed, rather than trying to counter it with a minor cd reduction.

 

 

In summary, I have tried and tested both sets of armour, with vastly improved results using Eliminator (both in terms of damage output and games won).

 

If you have done the same and found the opposite results for Combat Tech, then I'm glad it works for you, but for the above reasons I have to disagree.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Peytona

[Kesrik]

[No TL;DR because reading is fundamental!]

First, due to reaction times, game ability delays and lag, and a lack of gap closers for melee classes, the chances are that a healer will be able to successfully cast twice without the extra .5 seconds.

 

Assuming that game ability delays and lag will prevent all 3 people that are already in melee range of your healer from interrupting the last .5 seconds of their cast is just wrong. Half a second is forever in PvP. Honestly, you should always be interrupting in the last half second of someone's cast since it maximizes the amount of time they just wasted.

 

Second, the 'wins games' argument is incredibly situational, and could in fact be used against your case.

Scenario: Your team is defending a node on Alderaan. You need two consecutive critical hits to burst an enemy healer down. Because of your lower crit chance, you fail to do so and the healer proceeds to heal enemy dps. You lose the node, and subsequently lose the game.

 

Utility wins game. Higher damage output wins games. Same argument.

 

Higher damage only wins games when you actually need higher damage. As I said before, Assault already has an unreal amount of spike damage. Increasing the crit chance of 1 ability by 15% doesn't magically increase your spike damage by a huge amount.

 

If a healer is by himself with no guard, he dies, period. It doesn't matter if I never crit on him, he will still die. If a healer is being cross healed, or if he has guard on him with taunts on me, there is no way for me to solo him. This is where you call targets and have 2 dps burn him down. In either scenario, have 15% extra crit on 1 ability is a non-factor: I can either kill him by myself, or I can't. I am, of course, talking about fighting full BM geared healers who actually know how to fake cast and position.

 

In general, you will be using SS once for every three HiBs. Add to that the fact that it hits for roughly half the damage of HiB, and you'll agree that the damage lost is far more significant than you are letting on.

 

The damage actually isn't that significant. If you use 3 HIBs for every Stockstrike, it means that your HIB is resetting every other global. Unfortunately, Stockstrike and Ion Pulse don't have a 100% chance to reset the CD on HIB. Stockstrike has a 45% chance and Ion Pulse has a 30% chance to reset the HIB CD. This means that even if you spam a rotation of Stockstrike + 2x Ion Pulse, you only get HIB reset once. This comes out to you being able to HIB every 6 seconds, as opposed to being able to Stockstrike every 9 seconds. Do you get more damage out of 15% crit on HIB vs 15% crit vs. Stockstrike? Sure, but it's nowhere near as significant as you want us to believe.

 

Don't even mention the 10 seconds off CG cd. One extra ST stun every 6mins is a terrible return for 2 skill points. Fact.

 

Actually, the real beauty of 10 seconds off of Cryo Grenade is that it allows you to get an extra stun in before their CC break comes off of CD. Consider the scenario where the enemy team is wiping you at a node, and you are forced to spawn zerg. When Cryo Grenade is on a 60 second CD, you only get 1 Cryo Grenade every 2 minutes that can't be broken (First cryo broken, second cryo full, third cryo broken). With 10 seconds off the CD, you instead create a situation where you get 2 stuns in between their CC break (first cryo broken, second cryo full, third cryo full).

 

This is true, but irrelevant. 15% crit is 15% crit, regardless of your current crit chance.

 

Actually, this is where you are wrong. Having 15% extra crit at low crit levels is NOT the same as having it at higher crit levels. As I showed in my previous post, the actually increase in the number of crits you get drops off significantly the more crit you already have. This is a DR completely independent of the DR on the stat itself.

 

With a sufficiently high crit chance on HiB, Adrenaline Fueled requires a 1 point investment to cut the cds on both Adrenaline Rush and Reserve Powercell by 50%.

 

Try balancing (for an equal investment) 4 extra uses of AR plus 6 extra uses of RP against 1 extra use of CG every 12mins. There is no contest.

 

You are comparing a high tier talent to a low tier one. The only other talent that you can pick if you take Containment Tactics is Demolition, which gives you 6% extra crit on your elemental attacks. Of your elemental attacks, only your 2 dots get the 30% increase in crit damage from Assault Trooper.

 

On the other hand, Adrenaline Fueled competes for points with Rapid Recharge and Reflexive Shield. Either one of these talents is far superior to having a reduced CD on 2 very lackluster talents. Yes, if you had to choose between Containment Tactics and Adrenaline Fueled, the choice would be clear. However, that's not the choice we are making.

 

My comment on Resolve was from the perspective of attacking enemy players, which is just as important a factor as targeting objectives.

 

Sorcerers alone have 10 or more forms of CC to keep you out of a 10yd range and therefore unable to reset the CD on HiB.

 

I was unaware that Sorcerers had 10 different forms of CC/snares/kiting. I see the following: Whirlwind, Electrocute, Overload, Force Speed, and Force Slow (5 abilities, not 10). Even when you spec specifically for more CC, you can only choose between 1 of 2 extra abilities: a root or a incapacitate.

 

When we break down how to counter these abilities, it looks even better. They can't damage you while you are Whirlwinded. If they spec into the Overload root, you can simply use Reactive Shield and run to them. Force Slow is moot since you will also be slowing them by 50%. When they use Force Speed, you use Grapple. Even if you do get kited (almost never happens to an Assault Vanguard), you can either use your ranged abilities, or regen some ammo that you can use to burst when you close the gap. In fact, the only CC that you can't counter is Electrocute. Having a reduced CD on your CC break works wonders for this.

 

One extra CC breaker every 8mins is not going to solve this issue. You are far better off maximising your damage output against targets during the limited time you are not CCed, rather than trying to counter it with a minor cd reduction.

 

I rarely use my CC break simply to be able to do more damage. With such a long CD, your CC break needs to be saved for more defensive situations. You should be using it to stop a node cap. You should be using it when you are getting focused down in a stun so you can kite and pop your defensive CDs. Using a CC break simply to do more damage is extremely wasteful. Situations where you are about to kill someone AND you have full resolve AND you are the only person attacking that target is extremely rare.

 

In summary, I have tried and tested both sets of armour, with vastly improved results using Eliminator (both in terms of damage output and games won).

 

If you have done the same and found the opposite results for Combat Tech, then I'm glad it works for you, but for the above reasons I have to disagree.

 

What I have been saying all along is that both sets are equally viable. People should be choosing based on their playstyle. Trying to represent the Eliminator set as the only option for Assault Vanguards is extremely misleading.

 

P.S. Another bonus of the Combat Tech set is that it works for ALL Vanguard specs. The 15% extra cit on HIB is completely wasted on Tactics, Tactics/Assault Hybrid, Shield Spec, and Shield Spec Hybrid. While obviously those other specs are note being discussed here, I feel that the flexibility that Combat Tech gives you is pretty amazing.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Kesrik

[Hethroin]

HiB is not "one ability" it is the single most damaging ability in the spec that also happens to benefit from a +30% crit damage increase from the spec. Increasing its crit rate is going to bump your burst by a substantial amount.