Kinetic/Shadow numbers

[Philosomanic]

I'm still leveling right now, but I want to pick a spec and stick with it. People who have been playing kinetic since 10 have a huge advantage over people who swapped over at 50. I don't want to have to unlearn my keybindings. Even if the build I end up going for matures late, I'd rather deal with a gimpy build now so that my build is second nature when I hit 50.

 

So, this is where you guys help out. I'm looking for rough percentage approximations. I'm looking to find out whether it's "+30% defense, -5% offenses" or more like "+15% defense, -10% DPS". Going from Infiltration to Kinetic,

 

 

1) How will my opening damage change?

By "opening damage", I mean the first ~10s out of stealth.

 

2) How will my burst damage change?

I'm referring to burst damage, whether from stealth or not. For an Infiltration Shadow, this would be the burst of Potency + Breach + Project with all the procs up.

 

3) How will my sustained single-target damage change?

This is for both PvE and PvP. Talking about sustained damage over a longer fight (15s+). As a kinetic, I'm guessing I'll have more fights like this.

 

4) How will my sustained AoE damage change?

Mostly a PvE concern, but I'd still like to know.

 

5) How will my passive defenses change?*

This is how long you'll live if you just sit there and let them beat on you. So if I could take 8s of punishment from a Sorc as Infiltration, but it takes them 10s to kill me as a Kinetic, that would be 25%. No cooldowns used, but maintainable skills (Kinetic Ward) are fine.

 

6) How will my active defenses change?*

This is when you're using your active skills like harnessed shadows healing, debuffs from Slow Time/Force Breach, proc heals from Combat Technique, etc. However, still no cooldowns used.

 

*If melee/ranged is significantly different from force defenses, then please give both numbers.

 

 

For your percentages, assume pretty standard endgame gear for each build. I know you can't say this exactly, but a rough estimate will help me out a lot.

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited February 16, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

1) How will my opening damage change?

By "opening damage", I mean the first ~10s out of stealth.

 

As kinetic, your damage is pretty even through out, you'll hit just as hard first 10s out of stealth as you would 3 minutes into a fight.

 

2) How will my burst damage change?

I'm referring to burst damage, whether from stealth or not. For an Infiltration Shadow, this would be the burst of Potency + Breach + Project with all the procs up.

 

The only "burst damage" you have is Project while Particle Acceleration and Force Potency triggered (along with whatever stims, adrenal and relic you activate) follow up by TK throw with 3 Harness Shadow. Not much "burst" but as bursty as Kinetic gets.

 

3) How will my sustained single-target damage change?

This is for both PvE and PvP. Talking about sustained damage over a longer fight (15s+).

As a kinetic, I'm guessing I'll have more fights like this.

 

Your DPS is even throughout.

 

4) How will my sustained AoE damage change?

Mostly a PvE concern, but I'd still like to know. Slow time is probably one of the best AoE attack we got, so that's probably better than nothing you get from the infiltration tree , although they have 30 force Whirling Blow, though hardly anyone spec for it.

 

5) How will my passive defenses change?*

This is how long you'll live if you just sit there and let them beat on you. So if I could take 8s of punishment from a Sorc as Infiltration, but it takes them 10s to kill me as a Kinetic, that would be 25%. No cooldowns used, but maintainable skills (Kinetic Ward) are fine.

 

You'll have around 40% Damage reduction from armor, compare to infiltration's 20-23% mitigation. You'll also get Elemental and Internal damage resist in Combat Technique if you put points in Technqiue Mastery. Kinetic Combat's defense lies in their utility abilities, spinning kick keeps the enemy from hurting you for 2s while you wreck them instead, stun, etc.

 

6) How will my active defenses change?*

This is when you're using your active skills like harnessed shadows healing, debuffs from Slow Time/Force Breach, proc heals from Combat Technique, etc. However, still no cooldowns used.

 

Self Heals (constantly during combat) , Resilience(every 45s), Force Cloak (2min) and Saber Ward (2min). And I'll throw in Force Sprint (every 20s), this is a utility skill, you can use it to escape in conjuction with resilience and force cloak, or you can use it to break out of root which can save you life by putting you at your target's face and resume breaking it.

 

*If melee/ranged is significantly different from force defenses, then please give both numbers.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Kai-Eurah-Tird

[Philosomanic]

Well, I was kind of hoping for numbers. For instance, I know that infiltration gives higher burst damage, but are we talking something like 10% more burst damage, or more like 40% more burst damage? That kind of thing.

 

I get that Infiltration has better single-target DPS, single-target control, burst damage, and stealth, whereas Kinetic has better group control, utility, and defenses. I'm just wondering about how much DPS I'd give up for about how much defense.

 

I'm looking for something like this:

 

1) No change.

2) -15%

3) -5%

4) +10%

5) +30% melee, +10% force

6) +40% melee, +20% force

 

 

From looking at TORHead and the forums, I can see the differences myself. However, until I hit 50 and spend a lot of time experimenting, I can't tell the scale of the differences. I don't know if the heal from Combat Technique makes a large difference, or if it heals for maybe one attack over the duration of a 1v1 (I suspect the latter). I can't really tell whether Infiltration's Project+Breach is only slightly better than Kinetic's Project+TKT, or if Infiltration would do tons more damage there. If I'm going to be giving up 20% offense for a measly 5% increase in defenses, I'll stay Infiltration. That's why I'm trying to get an idea of the scale of the changes.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

Sorry, without combat log there really is no way to tell exactly the differences between builds are.

[Philosomanic]

Well, not exactly, no. But you can give a rough estimate. If it takes you 6 seconds on an infiltration shadow to burn down your average sorc, but 9 seconds on kinetic, then you can say that kinetic loses ~30% burst damage.

 

Really just looking for an estimate (within 10% or so). I just want to know which of the following is most true:

 

"I'll be able to take double the damage, and only do 10% less. Kinetic is worth it."

"I'll get a good 25% more defense, and lose 30% burst damage but only 15% sustained. Either one is good."

"I'll get a 15% defense increase against ranged/melee only, and I'll lose 25% DPS. Stick with Infiltration."

Edited February 16, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Kitru]

By my estimates, tank specs in tank gear do roughly 80% of the damage of a DPS specs in DPS gear while taking roughly half the damage. While leveling, since you get a companion and most enemies die quickly and easily, the additional survivability is only useful insofar as hard enemies (elites, champions) are concerned. In my experience, tanks and DPS tend to level at the same speed: the decreased downtime is counteracted by a slower kill speed.

[Shardie]

I'm still leveling right now, but I want to pick a spec and stick with it. People who have been playing kinetic since 10 have a huge advantage over people who swapped over at 50. I don't want to have to unlearn my keybindings.

 

Honestly, the difference between my infiltration Keybindings and my Kinetic Keybindings is, what four skills. Its not really that big of a deal so long as the important skills stay where they are.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Shardie

[Philosomanic]

@Kitru

 

Thanks, just what I was looking for.

 

 

@Shardie

 

It's not just the keybindings, it's the rotations. When you play a certain style long enough, you start doing your thing without much conscious thought. That lets you think "Okay, gonna CC this mob and then burn that one down" rather than "Mind Maze, Tab, Clairvoyant, Clairvoyant, Project, Breach, etc.". I don't want to get used to a Shadow rotation and then switch to Kinetic, because that would take a long while for me to get used to.

 

I wouldn't even think to use TK Throw at all, or to use Spinning Kick in combat. It would take ages for me to be looking for PA procs rather than using DS/CSx2 and then Project. I'd be used to watching for FW procs, followed by Low Slash -> SS, which you can't use as a Kinetic.

 

You get the idea. I'd adjust after some time, but I'd rather pick a build and grow with it now than to try and change what has become second nature much later in the game.

[Hydurz]

Obviously it depends on the target that you are fighting ^gear / skill

 

the lower numbers are from fights with champion / bm gear

 

high end numbers = fights with centurion / champ / orange

 

 

 

 

Kinetic : Longer fights, less of a chance of getting bursted down

w/ full BM stalker gear ^slightly modded

 

project : 2-3k ^w, procs

Force Breach : Low 1k ^aoe

Slowtime : 1-2k ^ aoe

dbl strike : 1k x 2

 

 

Infil: Burst,Burst,Burst... you will know you won the fight in < 6 moves

 

Project : 3- 5k ^upheaval proc etc

 

breach - 2 - 5k ^exit strat.

 

Calir strike 1k x 2 swings

 

Shadow Strike : 2k - 4k

 

only talking about crits

 

 

 

 

these are very rough numbers

 

 

valor rank 69

Edited February 18, 2012 by Hydurz

[Zunzun]

Infiltration and Kinetic rotations are incredibly easy so you don't really have to worry about that. Almost no keybinding change. The third spec, Balance, is very different however, but that's not really the point here (but keep in mind that Balance is by far the best spec for sustained mono/multi target damage).

 

About your questions, assuming full dps gear : Kinetic (Combat Tech) vs Infiltration (Shadow Tech) would be like (of course, anything is just a rough estimation) :

 

1) How will my opening damage change?

-25%

10s is usually enough to throw your first burst with both specs, Infiltration is able to trigger it faster however.

 

2) How will my burst damage change?

-25%

With potency+relic+adrenal, an accelerated project followed by an harnessed shadow throw can hit for 10k+ in 3 GCD on a low to medium armored target (I used to sometimes get my 2.5k medal on a TK throw tick, not anymore due surge nerf).

 

3) How will my sustained single-target damage change?

~-5%

Infiltration isn't that good for sustained damage, while harnessed shadow TK throw is really good.

 

4) How will my sustained AoE damage change?

+ a lot of %

Infiltration can't actually deal any decent AoE damage, while you'll get Slow Time and CT Force Breach.

 

5) How will my passive defenses change?*

6) How will my active defenses change?*

+100%

Gotta merge those two, since the healing from harnessed shadow is a key part of your survivability. Change between the two spec is quite huge, Energy/Kinetic damage reduction will go from ~24% to 40%, while Internal/Elemental will go from 10 to 21%. You'll get +6% defense, and a shield (if you use one, I don't) will increase that survivability a bit more. And even if you don't wanna take CDs into account, keep in mind you gain a -25% CD and +66% duration on resilience. And you of course get all that healing from CT and TK throw.

 

And I need to add :

7) How will my utility change?*

+200%

You'll get Force Pull, an almost spammable AoE slow and the possibility to have a 100% uptime on your guard.

 

TL;DR :

You'll losee some burst, a tiny bit of a sustained damage, and will get a lot of survivability and utility. That's why I'm not running Infiltration anymore, only Kinetic or Balance. Mainly Kinetic for PvP.

 

Valor Rank 71 atm.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Zunzun

[Candy]

I still can't bring myself to terms, I've tried it, but Kinetic/Balance just seems way too unnatural to me after leveling Infilitration. As an in Infilitration, there are very few, if any, players that I've met that 1 on 1 I can't just beat into the dirt.

 

Playing an Infilitration in Warzones is a bit tricky, but I just make sure that...while I'm a melee centric class...I'm still glass cannon material. With that in mind, I pick and choose my fights, or make sure I'm doing part of the objectives that are better suited for solo play. IE guarding left turret, taking empty side of Voidstar, picking off 2nd level ranged classes in huttball, etc.

 

I try to stay away from the heavy fights besides dropping healers and popping vanish.

[Nempo]

I still can't bring myself to terms, I've tried it, but Kinetic/Balance just seems way too unnatural to me after leveling Infilitration. As an in Infilitration, there are very few, if any, players that I've met that 1 on 1 I can't just beat into the dirt.

 

Playing an Infilitration in Warzones is a bit tricky, but I just make sure that...while I'm a melee centric class...I'm still glass cannon material. With that in mind, I pick and choose my fights, or make sure I'm doing part of the objectives that are better suited for solo play. IE guarding left turret, taking empty side of Voidstar, picking off 2nd level ranged classes in huttball, etc.

 

I try to stay away from the heavy fights besides dropping healers and popping vanish.

 

You are missing out then. As kinetic...I wade right intot he middle of big fights with near impunity and just wreck house. One need not be bursty to clean shop in PvP, just smart on CD use and a backup healer or two.

 

You run around and pick your fights very carefully...I rather prefer just charging into any fight I see and causing havok.

 

Doesn't help you also don't have the gear for kinetic thanks to leveling as infiltration.

[Candy]

You are missing out then. As kinetic...I wade right intot he middle of big fights with near impunity and just wreck house. One need not be bursty to clean shop in PvP, just smart on CD use and a backup healer or two.

 

You run around and pick your fights very carefully...I rather prefer just charging into any fight I see and causing havok.

 

Doesn't help you also don't have the gear for kinetic thanks to leveling as infiltration.

 

I have the 4 different sets of PvP gear up to Champion, so gear isn't the problem. But when you have 2-3 mages rolling around spam healing AoE in stuff like Voidstar, it pretty much either takes a Scoundrel or Infilitration spec'd Shadow to take one of them down. I see this a lot on my server, as there's usually at least 1-2 healers in every match. (Dunno what it is about fatman).

 

That being said, I also haven't found a kinetic/balance shadow that could beat me. My kill/death ratio isn't bad enough for me to make the move to a more defensive build, though the last patch really made me consider with the ~10% or so decrease in defense that I lost by not being able to switch stances mid-battle, or rather it not being worth it.

[Philosomanic]

Well, Infiltration shadows can get good AoE, most just choose not to. I plan on taking -10 force to Whirling Blow. Having an AoE skill with (if I read it right) unlimited targets at only 5 force more than the majority of my single-target attacks will mean some really good AoE. It'll be especially good for burst AoE with Shadow's Respite/Blackout.

 

However, thank you a lot for the opinions. I understand that it's impossible to get an exact read on the numbers, but you guys have given me a pretty good idea of how things are going to look at endgame.

 

 

 

For now, I'm sticking with infiltration. Huge single-target and AoE (in two levels) burst damage will hopefully mean for faster levelling; I don't really have downtime issues with poor Qyzen taking the hits for me. Also, I'm enjoying Infiltration for WZs.

 

I gave Kinetic a try before writing this post, but it was horrible. Going from 22.5 force Project to 45 force Project, not having +30% regen, and not having Harnessed Shadows made the build feel really bad. I missed the single-target burst in PvE, and the in-combat run speed in PvP. It looks like a great build, and I'm definitely going to try it again endgame, but I can't stand trying to level with it half-matured. Infiltration seems to mature a lot faster (I'm getting improved Force Slow soon, here comes the PvP deathmachine).