PvP system improvements & suggestions.

[Malleki]

This is a long post, sorry to those who don’t like that.

 

I can’t really TL;DR it, but I’ve broken it up into sections as best as possible.

 

So let's assume for a moment, for the purposes of this thread, that there is no class imbalance or gear differential. There are plenty of threads on people’s opinions on these matters. I’m hoping this will be more about improving our PvP system as a whole, adding/changing features that would make PvP more fluid and more enjoyable.

All in all, I highly enjoy SWTOR PvP. There are many things that could be improved with the system we currently have, but I do feel things are changing for the better. Essentially all the following are my opinions on each aspect I feel could be altered to promote better gameplay.

 

Medals- As these give a direct Valor reward to the player, they are essentially promoting a player to contribute to a Warzone in a specific way. Now in essence, that’s fantastic. Play well, get a cookie mentality works well and strengthens PUG groups. The problem is people are not getting rewarded for helping, but for mindlessly fighting. The medals are not focused enough around the objectives of each warzone. Slight tweaks would make medal ‘farmers’ (for lack of a better word) become far more effective to the team.

 

Huttball seems to be the worst culprit of this, you get nothing for scoring, nothing for making that final pass before a goal and nothing for defending the ball carrier (aside from some protection/healing points if you have those abilities). I think the Medals need to be tailored for each Warzone type. The system can easily be reworked for rewarding team-work and objective play. Even if your team is losing, you should still be able to get something back for trying your best. That’s how you get better and it means everyone gets a more enjoyable PvP match. Gear aside, isn’t that the whole point? Enjoy the PvP.

 

Dailys- An effort in frustration for some, 3 matches of face rolling for others. With the supposed fix for Dailys this may be less of an issue now. The point still stands that some people have huge difficulty getting their dailys done. If thats down to personal skill or perhaps a regular supply of people who aren’t playing to win, just to fight doesn’t really matter. The problem as I see it is someone can throw an entire evening at PvP and never get their Daily done and to me that seems like a problem.

 

If the above Medal system was implemented, then it could be easily tied in with the Daily system. Instead of 3 wins? 20/30 Medals. People who play poorly, or simply ignore objectives would suddenly be motivated to assist the team. The medal system would have to be well balanced. It can’t all be about the objectives as dealing damage/healing is a huge part of war. But with more objective based rewards people will actively seek out the objective completion every warzone, not just the highest damage mark on the boards.

 

Ilum- Ilum is already a whole lot better, people are actually fighting on my server (Bloodworthy) which makes a nice change. But there are still some problems as I see it.

 

Defending a point gives you 2x the Valor, this is promoting turret hugging (The usable ones by the team bases) for both Valor and tactical advantage. This is exasperated further buy only those defending getting the extra Valor, so the attackers just cluster up outside the turret range. I like the idea of extra Valor, but it should apply to both sides (Attackers and Defenders, to promote fighting at the point) and should apply only to the three central map locations. They are supposed to be focal conflict points so let’s stop fighting at the bases. The double Valor is a HUGE incentive to fight at a point, I have no doubt, if properly communicated to the players, they would flock to the center points to battle it out.

 

Warzone Leavers- Another huge issue which I think would be some-what alleviated by changing the Medal system. If your daily can still be completed by trying, despite losing, people may be more incentivized to stick around.

I am also one of those with the opinion that a leaver should receive a short debuff to prevent them queuing, a 15-20min debuff would do the trick.

This is probably one of the biggest issues with Warzones as they currently stand, a losing fight doesn’t have to be a dreadful one. Close fights, or unlikely come-backs are what make PvP so interesting. The current leaver issue is completely preventing this and turning the Warzones into more of a grind.

 

I’m eagerly anticipating the next Warzone to be released , curious to see if it’s another map for one of the 3 game types, or a new game type entirely. I just hope that Bioware looks as some of the core items above to smooth out the current PvP situation.

 

 

Interested to see what other ideas people have to give PvP in general a more enjoyable atmosphere.

[Niddhog]

I just have one criticism to point out. If you make the medals more focused on winning objectives, the medal farmers will then start farming those. While this would be an improvement.... Think of Huttball. If you get a medal for scoring the ball, you will have medal farmers refusing to pass when its advantageous to (cause they want their damned medal). Even with someone jumping up and down across the fire pit, they will charge through the damned pit with 5-6 sith on them (and die) before passing. I WANT MY DAMNED MEDAL! Or everyone lining up trying to get a pass instead of 1 person doing this while the rest actually protect ball carrier (knock people off cat walks, guard, heal, stun, etc). Again **** actually cooperating/winning... WE WANT OUR DAMNED MEDALS. Tweaking the medal system will not break their habits. While a slight improvement... medal farmers will still farm medals (instead of actively trying to win).

 

or if you got medals for passing? Their would be people fuming for you to pass ball back/forth for medals instead of intelligently passing for victory.

 

Back in WoW their were 20 something achievements for every WZ. This was so very exasperating as you would have people obviously trying to game these instead of winning. One in particular required you to cap 3 control points/defend 3 others (capping a flag made it nuetral, giving the other team a small window to take it back- think disarming voidstar bombs). I would see 3-4 people all trying to click the same flag, instead of leaving one to do it while the others protected said person. I'd also see constant loners trying to cap flags, and failing, instead of coordinating attacks with others.

 

If you change it to a pure valor standpoint, and reward more valor for winning... people will still quit if they think they will lose. Even with a deserter debuff of 15 minutes they'll go make a sandwitch while waiting on debuff. Scrapping all medals won't reward those that feel they contributed more (even if medals dont actually prove this...). Making it simply win/lose causes people to drop if they are going to loose. Making it medals will just make people medal farm more. Making it based on valor, and getting similar valor (with no medals) win/loose won't motivate people to win more anyway. Again... in WoW win/loss wasn't so different at one point. There would be half your team kill farming for meager amounts of honor because they thought it was more fun/they thought winning was futile anyway, so why bother?

 

I think you agree that we can't beat the medal/valor farmer mindset... but its not as easy as you would think to make everyone actually want to win/try (people are inherently lazy/selfish). I think the "lesser of two evils" is a to scrap medal system entirely and make there only be a 25% difference between win/loss (or something small). We can keep small rewards for MVP (or increase them slightly to compensate for lack of medals). Combine this with a deserter debuff of 30 minutes (roughly two games worth of time, with quick queues). To top it off, the pvp daily should be based off valor from WZ and be designed to complete with 3 wins/5 loses worth of valor (or any combination between). Therefor you complete faster if you win (to encourage actually trying), while keeping people from fighting 10 matches and not getting credit. This is a delicate balance, though... too high a gap and people will eat deserter and try again, too low and people won't care. I can try and in 3 matches, or just lollygag/afk and lose 4. Hmmm there would need to be some type of "report afk" feature. Maybe keep medals as a cosmetic thing, and use them as proof someone was actually helping? (need 3 medals to gain WZ valor, or something). There will always be abusers to a system/no one is perfect. You can only do the best you can, sadly.

 

TL;DR

-Scrap valor from medals and make win/loose valor rewards comparable (1200/800)

 

-Make the daily need "3500 valor from WZ" so that 3 wins/5 losses gets credit (to reward winning while not frustrating chain losses too much, #s can be tweaked).

 

-Add in deserter debuff of 30 minutes.

 

-Perhaps increase MVP rewards.

 

-Require at least 3 medals to gain credit for WZ/add report afk feature (to prevent people from hiding in a corner for effortless loss valor).

 

*farmers going to farm, best we can do is discourage this play style without frustrating people as much as possible.

[Malleki]

TL;DR

-Scrap valor from medals and make win/loose valor rewards comparable (1200/800)

 

-Make the daily need "3500 valor from WZ" so that 3 wins/5 losses gets credit (to reward winning while not frustrating chain losses too much, #s can be tweaked).

 

-Add in deserter debuff of 30 minutes.

 

-Perhaps increase MVP rewards.

 

-Require at least 3 medals to gain credit for WZ/add report afk feature (to prevent people from hiding in a corner for effortless loss valor).

 

*farmers going to farm, best we can do is discourage this play style without frustrating people as much as possible.

 

I get what your saying Niddhog, (and I did read the entire post) but I dont think the situation is as hopeless as you put forward. I think a system of essentially 'rewarding everyone' by reducing the penalty of losing is completely counter productive. You will promote AFKers as there is no point in actually fighting, people will just give up because contributing doesn't matter. Also people are promoted even MORE than they are now to not contributing because it makes no difference to them personally. They will just keep throwing themselves into the masses and cleaving/casting away until the timer hits.

 

If a medal system was well thought out for each specific warzone type then you would find people 'selfishly' completeing objectives, but in the process they are aiding the warzone.

You can prevent everyone going for goal by giving medals for assistance, for stopping the enemy, for aiding the ball carrier, for a pass that leads to a goal scored, for healing/protecting the ball carrier, intercepting an enemy pass etc.. and you can only earn 1 medal per 'acheivement' so people wont be ball hogging like crazy. There needs to be enough alternative ways to earn a healthy number of medals.

 

There are ways you can design the medals that will promote teamplay and objectives that in essence plays into the common attitude of 'what do I get out of it'. Eventually it will become second nature to pass for successful goals. But the most important thing in the end is the WINNER gets an extra lump of Valor to make it the favorable outcome. The fustration is more in the Daily than in the Valor gain I think. Make Dailys based around the new medals and the Daily fustration is solved by playing better for your team.

 

Thought and testing would need to go into the medals system, but a redesign such as this could be greatly beneficial to the flow of every Warzone and every future warzone.

 

As it is at the moment, people sometimes ignore the fact they are even IN a warzone. I have no doubt that some people don't even understand how to play warzones like Huttball properly either, having Medals that funnels them into objective play will quickly get them used to the idea of passing and assisting the team.

 

I would actually be in high favor of a PvP taster for each Warzone that people could complete before being allowed to Queue for warzones (If it's their first character). Essentially it would give a brief description of the warzone, allow them to float around the map to get to grips of it and show them things like the Pass Ball ability which they need to have available. Even a 30-second primer for each warzone would aid things greatly.

 

 

If a Farmer is going to Farm, then make that work in our favor. Systems can be built to do that, even if they aren't currently common. Farming isn't the problem, the systems that pander to them are.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Malleki