"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[Wetworks]

Yes, they are meaningless stats. You are saying "since I did all this, I should not have to do it again"... Well, the whole idea of the game is to do it again if you want to play another class. That's how it works.

 

Assassin and sorcerer are a different class.

 

Tell me how a melee/tank DPS somehow is the same class as a ranged-caster/healer... Just tell me, how they are the same. They do not play the same, they do not have the same skills (and not just talented skills, but base skills), they are completely different. Not even close to each other. Sure, they share abilities... Er.... One of them has a 10m force lightning, the other has a 30m force lightning... Wait... hum... Same with shock... Dammit...

 

Oh, and just so you know, all classes have the same companions. They all have 1 ranged DPS, 1 melee DPS, 1 ranged tank, 1 melee tank, and 1 healer. Sure, their flavors change a little, but they are the same.

 

It's all semantics... Many classes share an interrupt, all of them have a CC breaker, all of them have a stun, and even many of their main attacks are similar, just different flavors. Sorcs and mercs have a channeled long range attack, a cast time long range attack, an instant long range attack, and an instant long range stun... Yet they are very different... Just because classes share some abilities, does not make them the same class.

 

They are different. Very different. There is no reason why we should be able to change one to another it really makes no sense...

 

Well lets explore this, Consular class...

 

Tell me how a melee/tank DPS somehow is the same class as a ranged-caster/healer... Just tell me, how they are the same. They do not play the same, they do not have the same skills (and not just talented skills, but base skills), they are completely different. Not even close to each other. Sure, they share abilities... Er.... One of them has a 10m force lightning, the other has a 30m force lightning... Wait... hum... Same with shock... Dammit...

 

 

 

Meditation

Force Valor

Project

Double Strike

Saber Strike

Telekinetic Throw

Force Wave

Force Lift

Force Stun

Force Potency

Force of Will

Sprint

Mind Crush

Channel the Force

Force Speed

Mind Snap

Force Slow

Tumult

 

Sage & Shadow share all these abilities and the Balance skill Tree is shared, companions, story, etc.. wow mind blowing how different these are, try researching a little before making a point.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Wetworks

[aznthecapn]

Sage & Shadow share all these abilities and the Balance skill Tree is shared, companions, story, etc.. wow mind blowing how different these are, try researching a little before making a point.

 

That's another over simplification. You're twisting the results of your "research" to fit your side of the argument. The METHOD in which these two classes are dramatically different. Just listing the skills they have in common is not evidence in your favor.

 

Assassin - 18 unique skills (not counting talented skills)

Sorcerer - 14 unique skills

Inquisitor - 18 shared skills

 

Now take into account that several of those shared skills are shared across all classes, just with a different name (Unbreakable Will and Channel the Force). Some skills are also different based on your AC (Whirlwind for example). That means that, at best, the two classes share 33% of all skills (I say at best because I don't feel like doing the math, knock yourself out if you want). Likely less.

 

All that aside, a melee stealth class (regardless of role) is vastly different from a ranged class. They play differently. The use their skills in different ways. They are two separate classes. Companion and ship similarities are purely cosmetic.

[Raximillian]

Well lets explore this, Consular class...

 

 

 

 

 

Meditation

Force Valor

Project

Double Strike

Saber Strike

Telekinetic Throw

Force Wave

Force Lift

Force Stun

Force Potency

Force of Will

Sprint

Mind Crush

Channel the Force

Force Speed

Mind Snap

Force Slow

Tumult

 

Sage & Shadow share all these abilities and the Balance skill Tree is shared, companions, story, etc.. wow mind blowing how different these are, try researching a little before making a point.

 

Oh gosh... When you do research, PLEASE do it thoroughly... Here, let me show you a 30s research, but MUCH more thorough than yours:

 

http://www.torhead.com/abilities/class/2/level/1-50

 

Let's look at just the base changes in the class... The basic changes by just choosing an AC:

 

Sorc:

 

Force Attunement

Attuned to the Force, your maximum Force is increased by 400.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/f93vLOT/force-attunement

 

Sith Lifebinder

Reduces the cooldown of Revive by 100%.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/b6dgaWn/sith-lifebinder

 

Transmission (this alone completely changes the class)

Increases the range of Force Lightning, Shock, Jolt, Crushing Darkness and Force Slow by 20 meters. Also increases the duration of Whirlwind to 60 seconds.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/2j5NeO3/transmission

 

 

 

Quite brutal changes right there... Now, lets look at the ones for assassin:

 

Assassin's Training

Increases your total Endurance by 5 per rank, and increases the base damage dealt by Shock by 25%.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/hzP2pT2/assassins-training

 

Stealth (this right here, is a game changer)

Instant

Enters stealth mode, making your movements difficult to detect but slowing movement speed to 85% of normal. Your companion will not react to enemy attacks while in stealth. Most hostile actions prematurely end the effect. Cannot be used in combat.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/Q0FaYE/stealth

 

Weapon Proficiency: Double-Bladed Lightsaber

Able to equip double-bladed lightsabers and saberstaves.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/h6hbX7R/weapon-proficiency-double-bladed-lightsaber

 

Armor Proficiency: Shield Generator (this is also a game changer)

Able to equip a personal shield generator in your off-hand.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/7VZVWpV/armor-proficiency-shield-generator

 

 

 

Those are just passive abilities... Apply those changes to any class, any at all, and you have a completely different class. Completely different... If you tell me a class with stealth is the same as a class without stealth, or shield block, then I do not know what to tell you...

Edited March 22, 2012 by Raximillian

[CorellianWannabe]

It does dilute the classes. Don't argue the semantics of title. Its fallen flat on its face since it first cropped up. Advanced classes in SWTOR are classes in other games. You play a Vanguard or a Commando or an Assassin or a Powertech. These are classes. The are different. The only two that aren't markedly different are Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors. They need to be more clearly defined as classes. The rest already are.

 

And I can choose to play a Trooper, not a Commando or Vanguard. Is Trooper not a class?

My Consular isn't a class because I didn't choose a specialization at level 10?

[Raximillian]

And I can choose to play a Trooper, not a Commando or Vanguard. Is Trooper not a class?

My Consular isn't a class because I didn't choose a specialization at level 10?

 

No, it's not a full class. The game is not designed to play without choosing an AC. Try it! level a base trooper to 50, go to an op and try to heal, or tank. Tell me how it goes without advanced skills and talent points.

 

So no, it is not really a class. It's just an intro so you can choose your actual class.

[CorellianWannabe]

No, it's not a full class. The game is not designed to play without choosing an AC. Try it! level a base trooper to 50, go to an op and try to heal, or tank. Tell me how it goes without advanced skills and talent points.

 

So no, it is not really a class. It's just an intro so you can choose your actual class.

 

Who says I want to raid? I said I can get to 50 without choosing an advanced spec. Are you saying I can't?

 

The game isn't designed to be played without companions either, so why are they removed in groups larger than 2?

 

If it's 'just an intro' why do I keep getting abilities for it? Why not remove them and only grant abilities to the 'real classes'? Why should stealth melee characters learn ranged caster abilities and vice versa? By your logic the 'actual classes' should be completely separate-different story, companions, and abilities. Only the vestigial remnants of the 'intro' should connect them, right?

[CorellianWannabe]

It does dilute the classes. Don't argue the semantics of title. Its fallen flat on its face since it first cropped up. Advanced classes in SWTOR are classes in other games. You play a Vanguard or a Commando or an Assassin or a Powertech. These are classes. The are different. The only two that aren't markedly different are Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors. They need to be more clearly defined as classes. The rest already are.

 

And respecs dilute roles, so they shouldn't be allowed either, right? Or are 'classes' more worthy of protection on this front than roles?

[aznthecapn]

Who says I want to raid?

 

Good job taking his comment out of context. Strawman much?

 

I said I can get to 50 without choosing an advanced spec. Are you saying I can't?

 

He actually said "you can". He also said its difficult to be effective at max level without the skills and talent points that come from selecting an advanced class.

 

The game isn't designed to be played without companions either, so why are they removed in groups larger than 2?

 

They aren't. They are removed when you reach the group cap - four. In groups of three one person can have a companion. I've experienced it many times.

 

If it's 'just an intro' why do I keep getting abilities for it? Why not remove them and only grant abilities to the 'real classes'? Why should stealth melee characters learn ranged caster abilities and vice versa? By your logic the 'actual classes' should be completely separate-different story, companions, and abilities. Only the vestigial remnants of the 'intro' should connect them, right?

 

Because some skills are beneficial to both sub-classes and its easier to just give them the same skill with the same name. Developers don't need to account for people who nitpick invented arguments to feel like they need to make a point.

[aznthecapn]

And respecs dilute roles, so they shouldn't be allowed either, right? Or are 'classes' more worthy of protection on this front than roles?

 

Yes, they are.

[CorellianWannabe]

Good job taking his comment out of context. Strawman much?

 

 

 

He actually said "you can". He also said its difficult to be effective at max level without the skills and talent points that come from selecting an advanced class.

 

 

 

They aren't. They are removed when you reach the group cap - four. In groups of three one person can have a companion. I've experienced it many times.

 

 

 

Because some skills are beneficial to both sub-classes and its easier to just give them the same skill with the same name. Developers don't need to account for people who nitpick invented arguments to feel like they need to make a point.

 

How is it a strawman? I never once said anything about raiding. I'm not repsonsible for his inference. I have no interest in attempting buggy raids in this game.

 

Effective at what part of endgame? Even if I do enter warzones, what difference does it make? As long as I'm attempting to win isn't that what matters? Should I not even queue until I have full battlemaster gear so I can be the most effective?

 

I imagine I can do my dailies just fine-if not then it doesn't matter, since Bioware didn't bother to create any endgame content beyond the standard dungeons, raids, and battlegrounds. Hell you can't even craft without setting foot in raids for materials and patterns.

 

Why can't all 3 have a companion out? Why is your companion more valuable to the group than mine?

 

Really? Why does a stealth melee need telekinetic/lightning skills? I thought they were melee-which is totally different from ranged! Why does a ranged caster need saber strikes when he can cast at point blank range?

 

Don't worry-it's clear that Bioware isn't trying to account for anyone at this point-the ending to Mass Effect 3 proves that.

[CorellianWannabe]

Yes, they are.

 

Advanced specs chosen at level 10-integral to the class and inviolate.

Skill point specs chosen from level 10 to 50-should be able to be altered at will and multiple specs should be available simultaneously.

 

I'm not sure how people think advanced specs are 'real classes' when the only classes I see are chosen at character creation, but apparently the ability to level to 50 without choosing this advanced spec doesn't mean anything since such a character isn't a 'real class' and will be gimped.

 

Good luck with your dual specced Chiss Jedi or whatever you choose to play-apparently you've gone from thinking it might not be the worst thing ever right back to being against the concept as it will destroy the purity and honor of this game. Too bad it wouldn't even affect you at all-just some ideal you have for strict segregation of specs with identical stories, companions, and shared abilities.

[Zachajariah]

These threads and posts are getting old.

 

They've said no. Remember kids, when you're in the car with you "girlfriend" trying to unbutton her pants, when she says no, what she really means is........

 

Wait for it....

 

no.

 

I just got my second 50. My first a Jedi Shadow. My second a Jedi Sage. If BioWare implements AC changes, I'll 100% quit. Which, you know, they won't, because they said they won't.

 

Get over it, these threads should just be closed.

[twinionx]

These threads and posts are getting old.

 

They've said no. Remember kids, when you're in the car with you "girlfriend" trying to unbutton her pants, when she says no, what she really means is........

 

Wait for it....

 

no.

 

I just got my second 50. My first a Jedi Shadow. My second a Jedi Sage. If BioWare implements AC changes, I'll 100% quit. Which, you know, they won't, because they said they won't.

 

Get over it, these threads should just be closed.

 

Irrelevant analogy much?

 

So if your father says, no, you should not be a painter, you should be a doctor. No means no? LOL. What an obedient person you are.

 

See? I can also come up with an irrelevant analogy.

Edited March 22, 2012 by twinionx

[aznthecapn]

How is it a strawman? I never once said anything about raiding. I'm not repsonsible for his inference. I have no interest in attempting buggy raids in this game.

 

He indicated that if you don't choose an AC and level to 50 you're a diminishing your contribution and used the "raiding" as an example. You said "what if I don't want to raid". Your statement was attacking example of his statement - not the point.

 

Effective at what part of endgame? Even if I do enter warzones, what difference does it make? As long as I'm attempting to win isn't that what matters? Should I not even queue until I have full battlemaster gear so I can be the most effective?

 

If you have a complete set of battlemaster gear in your bags but refuse to put it on in a WZ, then yes. Until you have it, you are being the most effective you can be at that point. Unless you haven't picked an AC. Eventually Bioware will make it so you can't leave the fleet unless you complete that quest and lock you out of stuff if you leveled to 50 without picking an AC. They should have done that from the start.

 

Why can't all 3 have a companion out? Why is your companion more valuable to the group than mine?

 

No one said someone's was more valuable. The game is designed to be played with a companion. This role can be filled by another player. The maximum group size is 4 and companions are considered the equivalent of another player. Hence why a group of three is allowed one companion. I think you're intentionally being dim on this one though.

 

Really? Why does a stealth melee need telekinetic/lightning skills? I thought they were melee-which is totally different from ranged! Why does a ranged caster need saber strikes when he can cast at point blank range?

 

Who said they need it? Maybe they want it? Why is it only black and white with you?

[aznthecapn]

I'm not sure how people think advanced specs are 'real classes' when the only classes I see are chosen at character creation, but apparently the ability to level to 50 without choosing this advanced spec doesn't mean anything since such a character isn't a 'real class' and will be gimped.

 

You're hung up on classes being chosen at creation. I'd say there is one oversight that would deal with the vast majority of those wanting AC changes. Make you pick your AC at creation instead of level 10. This would do away with people who think not picking an AC makes you a unique snowflake somehow.

 

Good luck with your dual specced Chiss Jedi or whatever you choose to play-apparently you've gone from thinking it might not be the worst thing ever right back to being against the concept as it will destroy the purity and honor of this game. Too bad it wouldn't even affect you at all-just some ideal you have for strict segregation of specs with identical stories, companions, and shared abilities.

 

I still don't think its the worst thing ever. I think it has some use as you level. Not at max level though. I think the gameplay is the most integral aspect of each class and the differences between the majority of them is what justifies their separation. I also don't think that you have to wholly in one camp or the other. I can stand in the middle ground and be perfectly happy. The sooner most people on either side can reach that point, the sooner we can present a unified front to developers either for or against and in what way the most people want to see it implement.

 

As long as you expect people to be 100% for or 100% against, you're fighting a losing battle.

[Durrun]

The idea of changing between advanced classes is plain wrong.It is like playing a random rpg.You have the ability to choose your own path at the very beginning sacrificing the abilities of other classes for the one you like.You can't be rogue warrior and mage at the same time.

[Deewe]

I find interesting that while BioWare officially insists saying Advanced Classes are fundamentally different, we're going to get the most iconic skills from the other classes.

[CorellianWannabe]

He indicated that if you don't choose an AC and level to 50 you're a diminishing your contribution and used the "raiding" as an example. You said "what if I don't want to raid". Your statement was attacking example of his statement - not the point.

 

My contribution to what? My personal endgame? Warzones that a level 10 can enter?

 

If you have a complete set of battlemaster gear in your bags but refuse to put it on in a WZ, then yes. Until you have it, you are being the most effective you can be at that point. Unless you haven't picked an AC. Eventually Bioware will make it so you can't leave the fleet unless you complete that quest and lock you out of stuff if you leveled to 50 without picking an AC. They should have done that from the start.

 

So you want to punish players for making a choice that the game allows? Why not punish them for choosing melee over ranged as well? Oh wait, the game mechanics already do that.

 

 

No one said someone's was more valuable. The game is designed to be played with a companion. This role can be filled by another player. The maximum group size is 4 and companions are considered the equivalent of another player. Hence why a group of three is allowed one companion. I think you're intentionally being dim on this one though.

 

I thought the max was 16-so raiders go in packs of 4?

 

Who said they need it? Maybe they want it? Why is it only black and white with you?

 

'They want it' is a reason now? So it's ok for Assassins to have lightning skills but not switch to Sorcerors? Why not if they want it?

[CorellianWannabe]

You're hung up on classes being chosen at creation. I'd say there is one oversight that would deal with the vast majority of those wanting AC changes. Make you pick your AC at creation instead of level 10. This would do away with people who think not picking an AC makes you a unique snowflake somehow.

 

Ah, those personal attacks that you rail against so much-how many debate points do you lose for that?

 

It doesn't make you a unique snowflake-it just puts a lie to the claim that advanced specs are classes.

[CorellianWannabe]

The idea of changing between advanced classes is plain wrong.It is like playing a random rpg.You have the ability to choose your own path at the very beginning sacrificing the abilities of other classes for the one you like.You can't be rogue warrior and mage at the same time.

 

But you can play a Trooper with Force Choke, right?

[aznthecapn]

My contribution to what? My personal endgame? Warzones that a level 10 can enter?

 

Warzones that are in brackets for reasons just like this.

 

 

 

So you want to punish players for making a choice that the game allows? Why not punish them for choosing melee over ranged as well? Oh wait, the game mechanics already do that.

 

Its a choice that shouldn't be allowed. Stop new characters from skipping making the choice and force all those who already did to make the choice before proceeding with the game.

 

 

I thought the max was 16-so raiders go in packs of 4?

 

An ops groups is different from a "party". More intentional dimness?

'They want it' is a reason now? So it's ok for Assassins to have lightning skills but not switch to Sorcerors? Why not if they want it?

 

Argumentative.

 

Ah, those personal attacks that you rail against so much-how many debate points do you lose for that?

 

It doesn't make you a unique snowflake-it just puts a lie to the claim that advanced specs are classes.

 

It wasn't a personal attack. It was dispelling a myth. Its an oversight by developers. They simply assumed people would complete the quest and pick an advanced class - rightfully so since that's where you gain your core abilities. Its an oversight that warrants correction.

 

But you can play a Trooper with Force Choke, right?

 

Its posts like this one by you that makes me think you're just here to argue and not make any points for or against the topic. All you do is ask questions. While it can be effective you're overusing it. Significantly. The main issue, however, is that you seem to think that anyone who is opposed to you in this topic must also oppose you in every other topic. That tells me that you're just looking for an excuse to get into a fight with someone. You get defensive at every single post.

 

Don't assume everyone disagrees with you about everything and the discussion will go far more smoothly.

Edited March 23, 2012 by aznthecapn

[chaosdefined]

To be fair Azn, you haven't answered his question about Legacy mixing abilities with classes.

 

I also find it extremely confusing about how having the ability to change your AC even just once at a later level would be considered gamebreaking, and yet giving every class abilities from others, such as a Trooper with Force Choke, a Sith with Flame Thrower is perfectly acceptable?

[Raximillian]

Who says I want to raid? I said I can get to 50 without choosing an advanced spec. Are you saying I can't?

 

The game isn't designed to be played without companions either, so why are they removed in groups larger than 2?

 

If it's 'just an intro' why do I keep getting abilities for it? Why not remove them and only grant abilities to the 'real classes'? Why should stealth melee characters learn ranged caster abilities and vice versa? By your logic the 'actual classes' should be completely separate-different story, companions, and abilities. Only the vestigial remnants of the 'intro' should connect them, right?

 

You are taking things out of context. I did not mention just raiding, I mentioned PVP, FPs, whatever you want to do in the game. And yes, whatever you do in the game, it is designed for an advanced class to perform, not for the base class. If you try any role in PVE, or even PVP, there is NO WAY you will be even remotely effective with your base class. It just doesn't work, because the game is not designed for them.

 

The game is designed to solo with companions and to play with groups of 4 people. So companions will fill those slots in the group so you always have 4. If you have 2 players, you have have 2 companions (2+2=4). If you have 3 players, you can have 1 companion (3+1=4). If you have 4 players, then no companions. That is the full group. If I have to explain such a basic concept to you, then you need to play the game more before you come here and try to discuss about it.

 

No, different classes do not necessarily need different storylines, or companions or abilities. Where do you get such a wild idea? I can play diablo as any of the different classes, and they all get the same storyline. They are still different classes. Same in WoW, same in mass effect, same in pretty much any RPG out there. This is one of the few games that actually gives different storylines for different classes, but that is not a rule that defines a different class. I really have no idea how you reach such conclusions. They make no sense. A class is not defined by storyilne or companions. They are defined by abilities, roles, etc.

 

A stealth class (assassin) does not learn the same abilities as the ranged caster (sorcerer). Sure, they both have force lightning. But where, oh where do you get the idea that a 10m force lightning is the same thing as a 30m force lightning? They are nowhere in the same vicinity. Or where do you get the idea that a class with 500 force uses abilities in the same way as a class with 100 force? Or where do you get the idea that a class with stealth will fight the same way as a class without stealth? Or a class with large amounts of armor will fight the same way as a class with little armor?

 

They are different classes. Every way you cut it, an assassin and a sorcerer are completely different classes. Not even in the same universe at all.

[Raximillian]

To be fair Azn, you haven't answered his question about Legacy mixing abilities with classes.

 

I also find it extremely confusing about how having the ability to change your AC even just once at a later level would be considered gamebreaking, and yet giving every class abilities from others, such as a Trooper with Force Choke, a Sith with Flame Thrower is perfectly acceptable?

 

We have to see how that works. And what abilities are being shared. At least on the video, they say that they share some abilities for "fun" factor... Not sure if they are going to share iconic abilities (like stealth, or the ability to tank for example). If they share a few attacks, I see no problem at all. Many classes have many similar attacks already.

 

A trooper with a force choke, is a trooper with a channeled stun. A channeled stun is an ability that anyone can have... Heck, companions have it. So it's just an extra ability, but it is not class defining like the ability to stealth, or the ability to tank.

 

If they suddenly give shield generators to sorcerers, or stealth for example, then yeah, I think that would be crossing the class boundaries. But adding a channeled stun is hardly class breaking.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Raximillian

[Vankris]

To be fair Azn, you haven't answered his question about Legacy mixing abilities with classes.

 

I also find it extremely confusing about how having the ability to change your AC even just once at a later level would be considered gamebreaking, and yet giving every class abilities from others, such as a Trooper with Force Choke, a Sith with Flame Thrower is perfectly acceptable?

 

i was under the impression that those legacy ability would heavily restricted, as only when companion are out, disallowed in warzone, flashpoint, operation, and only during heroic moment.

 

comparing with core base ability from one class to another, wouldn't it be apples and oranges?