"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[Vankris]

Have you read anything in this thread?

 

We've already covered the fact that saying they are seperate classes is invalid because they still share the majority of the base stats and abilities. AC's are not like a Paladin and a Mage, they're just glorified specs like a Ret Paladin and a Holy Paladin.

 

Base stat has nothing to do with class, i don't understand where you came from with this one. Paladin/warrior and deathknight DPS and tank share the same base stat (strength) and even same secondary stat, that does not mean you can change the class as freely as you want.

 

 

We've already covered that people don't really get a feel for their AC until around level 25-30 at which point they're not willing to put in another few weeks of time on repeating the exact same content and so will just leave the game.

 

i don't know what to say. lazyness should never be encourage and certainly never be rewarded.

[grandmthethird]

Because i prefer to focus and use only one character and don't want to play two, that's why.

 

And since your main reason for not wanting ac switching throughout these months has been that according to you "people having to roll different chars to play the different ac offers more replay value than simply switching" i said wahtever ok, even if i think it's dumb as hell, i'll level the other ac and enjoy the "fabulous" fake replay value, then i can go back to my main and just use that and switch as i please, what's the problem with this? I can't possibly see ANY valid gameplay/mechanic problem really.

 

and maybe while i'm at it. i could change my main from a SW into a bounty hunter and then change into a SI. then we can get rid of any reason to replay the game

 

the game that has been made so alt friendly

 

8 slots, 8 ACs distributed over both factions. there is no need to play the same character twice to experience the 2 ACs, and the argument that te opposite faction does not appeal because its too goody goody or too evil. don't wash. because you have dark/light side choices, so play how you want

[Wetworks]

Multiple Spec for the same advanced class: Yes, that can work. tou can make it as easy as in wow (just a 10 secondes cast anywhere in the world) or make some barrier like

- require reagent

- limited time per day

- require you to be in the fleet

 

there are other solution as well like, lowering respec cost, or have it cost a farmable reagent instead of credit.

 

 

Change Advanced class: No, like bioware i see them exactly as different class. Even wow, the most casual of casual game didn't do, for a reason.

 

if you want another trroper, just bite the bullet and make another one. But i con't believe you went all the way to 50, suddenly realize you don't like the game play.

 

So with the Legacy taken in consideration now, unlockable other faction races & abilities, 8 story lines (that's right 8 for the 8 classes in game...not 16), and 8 character slots...according to you go play two Troopers, makes zero sense at all.

 

Here is a nice link on how the 8 classes/races benefit your account

 

http://torwars.com/2012/03/13/pc-gamer-dives-into-swtors-legacy-system/

 

As it stands the stance for AC change has nothing but strengthened with the release of the Legacy system, why unlock 8more character slots for every player? Just open AC change and every customer has the chance over SWTOR lifetime to experience all 8 class stories without the absurd concept of leveling two of a single class.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Wetworks

[aznthecapn]

How is this any different from advanced spec switching? It doesn't affect you at all. How do you reconcile this apparent dilemma?

 

I don't know why you're spending so much time trying to convince me that AC change is warranted. I've already made comments over the last few pages indicating I may be changing my mind on the whole topic. Is that not a win in your book? Is there a need to continually attack my statements, particularly ones I made weeks ago? Is the blood haze just clouding your vision right now and all you can do is rage against someone who is only marginally opposed to you?

 

In response to that, its different because spec changing is already in game. Adding dual spec does not add a feature that doesn't already exist. The effect of spec changing on someone else's gameplay is already a part of the game. The effect of class changing does not exist nor was the game designed in such a way to include its existence.

 

It also pertains to the fundamental disagreement that we ARE playing different classes. There is a continuing and persistent attempt to change what people define as "classes" in this game by people seeking AC change. Calling them "glorified specs" isn't going to win any wars, especially when the people you need to convince are the ones who created them in the first place. If I change my mind, it won't be because you or anyone else convinced me they aren't really classes - it will be because Bioware has effectively destroyed any purposeful concept that they are classes (I refer you to the Heroic Moment Legacy perk in 1.2) and we might as well ride the slippery slope all the way to Hell.

 

The saddest thing of all was that this thread hadn't been bumped in over 24 hours. I was hoping it had died. This argument is never going to end but it needs to. Its not going to be another player that changes anyone's mind one way or the other - its going to be Bioware changing the game in such a way that people change how they view the classes. Pointless argument is pointless.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Paralassa
response to removed argument

[grandmthethird]

i think your misunderstanding, (i probably didn't write it right) to experience the two AC's without playing the same story twice is

 

go SW juggernaut

go JK sentinel

 

there is 8 slots on one server, you go 4 empire. as one side of the AC choice then 4 republic as the opposite AC choices. you can experience all ACs without repeating the story's. my point of dark/light side was if republic or empire didn't appeal

Edited March 15, 2012 by grandmthethird

[aznthecapn]

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. I'm telling you to give it up and you're continuing to try and argue. Why are you arguing again? Oh yes because you don't like something and don't want others to enjoy it. Yet you use the exact same argument we're using for AC change to why Duel-Spec is allowed.

 

I'm discussing the topic because it is your job to convince Bioware why they should allow it and my job to make sure Bioware sees the fallacy in your points. I'd love for others to enjoy the game but I don't think that changing your class is the best way to do it. If it boiled down to purely enjoying the game, I'd be all for it. But it doesn't. As I have explained.

 

I explained this as well: the argument is NOT the same. More proof you didn't read the post. Thank God I've been reporting you all along. You are definitely a mythological creature who lives under a bridge. The argument is NOT the same because A) spec changing is already in game therefore its effect on people is already in game and B) everything in the game was designed with the intent that people are allowed to change specs. The final, crucial, point is that you seem to think the classes aren't classes but "glorified specs" as so many like to say and, as it stands now - you're wrong. Not because I say you are, not because WoW did it differently, not because Wikipedia defines specs as "A, B and C" but because BIOWARE said you're wrong.

 

Stop trying to convince other players and start trying to convince Bioware.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Paralassa
DoM

[chaosdefined]

It's not your job to stop the developers from seeing that certain changes need to be made to improve the quality of gameplay for others. It's really low that you think you have to do that.

 

Can't you just enjoy playing your game? After all it won't be affected in any way differently to how Duel-Spec would affect it, and yet you were campaigning for that using the exact same argument as we are.

 

Instead you sit here and constantly ignore and deny every single point made to you and decry that you're in the right.

 

It's people like you that will kill this game.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Notannos
DOM

[Vankris]

So with the Legacy taken in consideration now, unlockable other faction races & abilities, 8 story lines (that's right 8 for the 8 classes in game...not 16), and 8 character slots...according to you go play two Troopers, makes zero sense at all.

 

Here is a nice link on how the 8 classes/races benefit your account

 

http://torwars.com/2012/03/13/pc-gamer-dives-into-swtors-legacy-system/

 

As it stands the stance for AC change has nothing but strengthened with the release of the Legacy system, why unlock 8more character slots for every player? Just open AC change and every customer has the chance over SWTOR lifetime to experience all 8 class stories without the absurd concept of leveling two of a single class.

 

choice must be made

choice should matter

 

you choose an advanced class, you choose it 8 advanced classes on a given server, you end up with a combo unique to the choice you made and not everyone have the same, how is that a bad thing?

 

in 7 years of wow, there are still some classes i didn't play past level 20, in fact, i would argue that very few player filled their 10 slot on a given server with 10 character max level.

 

And that does not change the fact that no, you should never be given the possibility to change your class, ever. Race, name, legacy name, faction, yes those are just cosmetic but not class.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Vankris

[chaosdefined]

choice must be made

choice should matter

 

 

By that logic if you make a choice to take on a group of 5 elites and die, your character should remain dead and you should have to roll another character.

 

You made the choice and it should matter. Disregard everything about this being a game and there for people's enjoyment.

[Tarka]

In my opinion, AC switching should be allowed. Not necessarily frequently, but still allowed all the same.

 

Both AC's have:

• The same Companions.
  
• The same Class Story.
  
• The same Ship.
  

The only difference is SOME abilities, NOT ALL.

So in actual fact, there are more similarities between the AC's than differences.

 

I'm personally not interested whether some people want to disagree with me, this is my own opinion.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Tarka

[aznthecapn]

It's getting honestly so pathetic that you keep reporting me because you don't like that I'm disagreeing with you.

 

And that you feel the need to say this at the start of every post you make ISN'T? I'm reporting you because you're off topic, not because you disagree. I've disagreed many times in this very thread and not reported people. You aren't bothering to read any posts and discuss the topic. You'd rather set up your own strawman arguments to debate with.

 

It's not your job to stop the developers from seeing that certain changes need to be made to improve the quality of gameplay for others. It's really low that you think you have to do that.

 

Strawman. That's not what I said, you're making it up. It is my opinion that the game is bettered by requiring people to stick to a certain class and level an alt if they want to try a different class. This thread is evidence that the vast majority of the game is perfectly happy with this.

 

Can't you just enjoy playing your game? After all it won't be affected in any way differently to how Duel-Spec would affect it, and yet you were campaigning for that using the exact same argument as we are.

 

I will be effected. I've explained why.

 

Instead you sit here and constantly ignore and deny every single point made to you and decry that you're in the right.

 

It's people like you that will kill this game.

 

I'm not ignoring any point. You are. You've ignored every one I've made.

[aznthecapn]

In my opinion, AC switching should be allowed. Not necessarily frequently, but still allowed all the same.

 

Both AC's have:

• The same Companions
  
• The same Story.
  
• The same Ship.
  

I don't care what others think, there are more similarities between the AC's than differences.

 

All classes have the same companions. If you focus purely on gameplay then a companion's appearance and story are completely moot. They are ranged tank, melee tank, healer, ranged DPS and melee DPS. Every class has the same companion type. The same can be said for ships. Its a different layout and look but the features on the ship are identical from class to class to class.

 

Playstyle, armor type, stat priorities - the stuff that makes classes different - IS different between ACs. Any AC switching should be purely to decide which you want to play at max level. No switching at max level.

[aznthecapn]

By that logic if you make a choice to take on a group of 5 elites and die, your character should remain dead and you should have to roll another character.

 

There is good choice and bad choice. Forcing that choice on someone is a bad choice. A class choice, and one you can easily remedy should you make the wrong one (re-roll), is a good choice.

[chaosdefined]

There is good choice and bad choice. Forcing that choice on someone is a bad choice. A class choice, and one you can easily remedy should you make the wrong one (re-roll), is a good choice.

 

You're forcing the AC choice on us, so by your own argument that's a bad choice.

[Tarka]

All classes have the same companions. If you focus purely on gameplay then a companion's appearance and story are completely moot. They are ranged tank, melee tank, healer, ranged DPS and melee DPS. Every class has the same companion type. The same can be said for ships. Its a different layout and look but the features on the ship are identical from class to class to class.

 

Playstyle, armor type, stat priorities - the stuff that makes classes different - IS different between ACs. Any AC switching should be purely to decide which you want to play at max level. No switching at max level.

 

Sorry, but you're trying to use over-simplification in order to discredit an opinion.

 

Whilst you are correct that each class has the same Companion gameplay "types", for obvious reasons, nevertheless the ACTUAL characters and their own stories ARE shared between the AC's. And that's mainly what I was referring to when I said "Same Companions".

 

I stand by what I originally said. I'm really not interested in the disagreements with other posters in the forums. The only thing I'm interested in, in regards to this discussion, is voicing my opinion for the devs to see. For they are the ones who make decisions, not forum posters.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Tarka

[Vankris]

By that logic if you make a choice to take on a group of 5 elites and die, your character should remain dead and you should have to roll another character.

 

You made the choice and it should matter. Disregard everything about this being a game and there for people's enjoyment.

 

if choice you make don't matter, games becomes dull. You don't even know what you are asking for (and giving very bad example)

 

yes if you attack stronger enemy, you might die, it is your choice, you make it knowing that if you die, you can be resurrected.

 

if, as you say, death would mean game over, you would take more care into making those choices (have you heard about the iron man challenge?)

 

Part of the fun of the game is playing with the game mechanic to achieve your goal, not having the game mechanics bent to your wish to achieve your goal (mm, maybe i'm not that clear)

[aznthecapn]

You're forcing the AC choice on us, so by your own argument that's a bad choice.

 

No one is forcing that choice on you. You have the choice to start a new character with a different class. If you were only allowed one character, then I could see how you'd be forced. In this case, you aren't.

[aznthecapn]

(mm, maybe i'm not that clear)

 

You are. No worries.

[chaosdefined]

No one is forcing that choice on you. You have the choice to start a new character with a different class. If you were only allowed one character, then I could see how you'd be forced. In this case, you aren't.

 

But you are, I'm being forced to make one choice that I can never change without repeating everything over. That's not fun, that's not enjoyment, thus it is a bad choice.

 

I'm getting bored of arguing the same points though. The Dev's already have plenty of pages worth of good, constructive and helfpul points once they wade through all the narrow-minded wails of those who aren't being helfpul to the games future at all.

[aznthecapn]

But you are, I'm being forced to make one choice that I can never change without repeating everything over. That's not fun, that's not enjoyment, thus it is a bad choice.

 

Just because you don't WANT to replay content doesn't mean the choice doesn't exist. If a student misses the bus, they are not forced to walk to school. They can call a friend, call a parent, call a taxi, ride a bike. All of these are choices. They might be less preferred than riding the bus with one's friends but they remain a choice none-the-less.

 

You are choosing to not re-start your character. Bioware is not forcing you to keep the one you have.

 

I'm getting bored of arguing the same points though. The Dev's already have plenty of pages worth of good, constructive and helfpul points once they wade through all the narrow-minded wails of those who aren't being helfpul to the games future at all.

 

Is it possible for you to make a post without backhanding someone? Both sides have valid points and yes, Bioware has plenty to read. Glad to see you taking a step away. Maybe, if you come back, you can do so without the need to make offensive comments about the opposition in almost every post.

[Vankris]

But you are, I'm being forced to make one choice that I can never change without repeating everything over. That's not fun, that's not enjoyment, thus it is a bad choice.

 

I'm getting bored of arguing the same points though. The Dev's already have plenty of pages worth of good, constructive and helfpul points once they wade through all the narrow-minded wails of those who aren't being helfpul to the games future at all.

 

i am pretty sure the question of giving the player the option to change advanced class have crossed the mind of the dev already ad i am pretty sure this thread is not the first (and the last) on that subject.

 

That being said, dev must consider what would it effectively do to the game (basically having only 4 class in the game). I'm guessing that the reason behind not letting player respec classes.

 

finally yes, if you don't like your class, roll another one, if the story is the same, then just skip it as fast as you can.

 

if you are an MMO player, you know that the leveling phase is probably 5% or less than the lifetime of your character, you will spend a few weeks leveling and years at max level. I don't see make a profound game mechanics change (swtching between AC will have deep impact) just for a tiny proportion of one character's life.

 

 

make no sense.

[chaosdefined]

i am pretty sure the question of giving the player the option to change advanced class have crossed the mind of the dev already ad i am pretty sure this thread is not the first (and the last) on that subject.

 

That being said, dev must consider what would it effectively do to the game (basically having only 4 class in the game). I'm guessing that the reason behind not letting player respec classes.

 

finally yes, if you don't like your class, roll another one, if the story is the same, then just skip it as fast as you can.

 

if you are an MMO player, you know that the leveling phase is probably 5% or less than the lifetime of your character, you will spend a few weeks leveling and years at max level. I don't see make a profound game mechanics change (swtching between AC will have deep impact) just for a tiny proportion of one character's life.

 

 

make no sense.

 

Like has been discussed a lot, the problem with just re-rolling is the experience doesn't change, it's the same and thus not appealing. If we had more of a choice on where to level or what missions to do it would make a world of difference. As it stands right now we have to level up on the exact same planets and do the exact same missions every time.

I'm an alt-o-holic and even I'm put off the idea of levelling a seperate class because there's so little difference most of the time.

 

The dev's were also considering a Cross-Server LFG Tool during the Beta, but a bunch of players said "No that destroys communities!" so they didn't put it in. Look how well that idea turned out!

[aznthecapn]

Like has been discussed a lot, the problem with just re-rolling is the experience doesn't change, it's the same and thus not appealing. If we had more of a choice on where to level or what missions to do it would make a world of difference. As it stands right now we have to level up on the exact same planets and do the exact same missions every time.

I'm an alt-o-holic and even I'm put off the idea of levelling a seperate class because there's so little difference most of the time.

 

See, now you're getting to the ROOT of the problem. Its not a class problem, its a content problem. The fact that there's ONE planet at a time to level on. The fact that half the classes share a starting area. The fact that two classes share a story. All of these are the key issues to me and completely separate from class changing. We should be railing for improved content - more places to level, more starting zones, more planets, more story. Class changing is a band-aid on a cannon ball wound. We need surgery. And cannon ball ointment.

Edited March 15, 2012 by aznthecapn

[chaosdefined]

That's something that's been mentioned a lot during the course of this though. It's one of the problems.

Yes one possible solution would be to properly differentiate the AC's into having their own storylines, companions and to add more planets in which to level up on.

 

However the amount of resources and time required to impliment all that, an AC Switch ability would be a far easier implimentation for Bioware to choose.

 

Or Faction Change. So say you levelled up an Assassin to top level, then rolled a...Consular would it be? Levelled that to top level experiencing totally different content and then paid real cash to Faction Change. Then boom, you've got two AC's and got to experience different content.

[grandmthethird]

Like has been discussed a lot, the problem with just re-rolling is the experience doesn't change, it's the same and thus not appealing. If we had more of a choice on where to level or what missions to do it would make a world of difference. As it stands right now we have to level up on the exact same planets and do the exact same missions every time.

I'm an alt-o-holic and even I'm put off the idea of levelling a seperate class because there's so little difference most of the time.

 

The dev's were also considering a Cross-Server LFG Tool during the Beta, but a bunch of players said "No that destroys communities!" so they didn't put it in. Look how well that idea turned out!

 

 

as i have pointed out. you can play the other AC while playing the opposite faction. then you will not repeat the same story. we all know that classes and ACs are mirrored