GenoAmi Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 To be fair it's a sensitive topic and a lot of people do throw harsh words around. Caution is understandable. I suppose that's understandable. Still, I feel concern for others when they feel defensive, on either side of the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecooljason Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 To be fair it's a sensitive topic and a lot of people do throw harsh words around. Caution is understandable. Thank you. Its good to see someone who can debate this respectfully. You get a thumbs up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenoAmi Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 No offense to anyone here, but people on the forums (swtor and other) discussing this issue use the word "bigot" a lot. I am just preparing for what is likely going to be said. The fact that I think that homosexuality has no place in video games is not an uncommon view, and does not make me a bigot. I feel fine, and support my view unapologetic. Bigotry exists, but I do feel like there are very few bigots. I do think that this view is unfortunate, and that homosexuality has a place in video games- and this view is becoming less and less uncommon every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecooljason Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I would make this final point. Everyone of every race, sexual orientation, and what ever else have a right to play this game. That does not mean that they are entitled to have content catered to them. Many gamers would rather have more content added and bugs fixed, rather than putting in more RP options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I would make this final point. Everyone of every race, sexual orientation, and what ever else have a right to play this game. That does not mean that they are entitled to have content catered to them. Straight people already have content catered to them; this is more about simple equality, and having access to the same sort of content that straight people already do. Many gamers would rather have more content added and bugs fixed, rather than putting in more RP options. Agreed, and you'll probably agree that same sex content is being made to wait because other content takes priority. If it weren't it'd be in by now, after all. Again, this thread isn't so much about demanding this content immediately, it's about discussing options that we do, eventually, want to see. And as it's an MMORPG, it's fair - I think - to express our desire for RP-related content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecooljason Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Straight people already have content catered to them; this is more about simple equality, and having access to the same sort of content that straight people already do Just because straight people have content catered to them, does not mean that anyone is entitled to anything. Everyone still gets to play like everyone else, and there is no discrimination against anyone. Discrimination against homosexuals is very very wrong. But not putting in same-gender flirt opinions is no form of discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenoAmi Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Just because straight people have content catered to them, does not mean that anyone is entitled to anything. Everyone still gets to play like everyone else, and there is no discrimination against anyone. Discrimination against homosexuals is very very wrong. But not putting in same-gender flirt opinions is no form of discrimination. It's catered to them because they're the norm- and I realize it's hard to understand. But this level of invisibility from BW is unheard of, and is frankly bewildering, given that same-gender flirt options are already coming. I've seen your posts, and don't worry- we don't advocate that these options come in before bug and glitch fixes, but we want this content, and we're voicing our concerns and hopes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Just because straight people have content catered to them, does not mean that anyone is entitled to anything. Everyone still gets to play like everyone else, and there is no discrimination against anyone. Discrimination against homosexuals is very very wrong. But not putting in same-gender flirt opinions is no form of discrimination. That depends on your definition of 'discrimination' and what it entails, actually. Sometimes ignoring the existence of something is just as discriminatory as openly opposing it. It could be very easily argued, by people better with words than I, that the lack of same sex content - particularly for a Bioware game, given the history of same sex inclusion of both Bioware and EA games (Dragon Age, Mass Effect, The Sims, etc) - was a glaring exclusion that should be corrected. I don't tend to argue matters of 'discrimination' in any case. I argue matters of equality - whether the lack of same sex options is discriminatory or not, it's certainly not equal. Some people want it to be equal, others are happy with it not being equal. Others are vehemently against the matter of equality in this particular regard; it's all opinion. In terms of companion same sex relationship options, which admittedly this thread isn't about, Bioware has already said they're coming. We don't know when or exactly how but it's confirmed that same sex relationship options are in the works. This thread is just an extension of that, asking the question of whether those same-sex options will be in place for non-companion NPCs as well as companion NPCs. That hasn't been confirmed and may or may not occur (though I suspect and hope that it will). You've mentioned entitlement a couple of times now. Whether people feel 'entitled' to same sex options or not, they're coming. In this thread we simply want to know if that's going to extend to non-companion NPC flirts. It's not a matter of feeling entitled or not, it's a query about the breadth of a confirmed future feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenoAmi Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Actually, The Sims isn't the best example- same-sex options (in the latest game) are only available after loads of dating- wherein the neighborhood finally becomes "gay-friendly", and homosexuals finally enter your neighborhood with more frequency. Then you still can't complete the 1P mode, because the requirement is to get married, a luxury the homosexual characters don't get. Furthermore, Mass Effect is equally bad as an example, since Officer Kelly is the only same-gender option, and it isn't fully a relationship in the game (wherein you can date Kelly and not be considered a lying, cheating two-faced cheater McCheaterpants). Still, it's sad that homosexuality doesn't get the visibility it should, considering that KOTOR's Juhani and Belaya were both homosexuals, as is Boba Fett's best friend and Boba Fett's best friend's husband. Gay marriage is good enough for Boba, it's good enough for SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Actually, The Sims isn't the best example- same-sex options (in the latest game) are only available after loads of dating- wherein the neighborhood finally becomes "gay-friendly", and homosexuals finally enter your neighborhood with more frequency. Then you still can't complete the 1P mode, because the requirement is to get married, a luxury the homosexual characters don't get. I haven't played the latest Sims games. All of the ones I've experienced have been pretty much all-in. Furthermore, Mass Effect is equally bad as an example, since Officer Kelly is the only same-gender option, and it isn't fully a relationship in the game (wherein you can date Kelly and not be considered a lying, cheating two-faced cheater McCheaterpants). That's Mass Effect 2. In Mass Effect 1 there's one bi option - Liara T'soni - and no gay same-sex option. In Mass Effect 2 there are three bi 'not really relationships' relationships, according to the wiki, of which Kelly is only one. The other two, predictably, are asari (and thus technically female) - one of which, from what I can tell, doesn't consummate the relationship due to her duty, and the other of which is, uh, fatal. I won't throw in spoilers if I can help it but suffice it to say the options are at least nominally there. But I've heard in Mass Effect 3 there'll be an outright m/m option - Garrus. My point was, though, that Bioware has a reputation they've built for themselves as being LGBT-friendly. It's understandable that people might have come to TOR expecting the same LGBT-friendly approach. Still, it's sad that homosexuality doesn't get the visibility it should, considering that KOTOR's Juhani and Belaya were both homosexuals, as is Boba Fett's best friend and Boba Fett's best friend's husband. Gay marriage is good enough for Boba, it's good enough for SWTOR. Heh. Edited February 16, 2012 by Kioma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenoAmi Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I've gone on record as not counting Liara, since her race is mono-gendered. It's tantamount to saying a Hutt can have any sexuality whatsoever- Hutts are hermaphroditic. In the same way, a mono-gendered species can't have a sexuality- as Liara explains herself, as since her species doesn't have a gender besides the one they have to identify with, they can't technically have a sexuality. But still, there's Jade Empire- Silk Fox is gay, as is what's-his-face with the blue threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I've gone on record as not counting Liara, since her race is mono-gendered. It's tantamount to saying a Hutt can have any sexuality whatsoever- Hutts are hermaphroditic. In the same way, a mono-gendered species can't have a sexuality- as Liara explains herself, as since her species doesn't have a gender besides the one they have to identify with, they can't technically have a sexuality. Well, now. That's a tricky matter. Gender and sexuality are different, after all. True, being a parthenogenesis species all members are more 'child-bearers' than 'female' but frankly they've been made to look very, extremely female. Also, that doesn't mean they don't have sexual preferences. After all, mating with other asari is a huge no-no so I've no doubt that asarisexual asari get a lot of flak from other asari. Maybe their sexualities are more defined by species, whereas ours are defined by gender; one asari might be turiansexual, for example, and be more attracted to turians than other species. That's all speculation on my behalf and completely off-topic of course, so I'll stop there. But still, there's Jade Empire- Silk Fox is gay, as is what's-his-face with the blue threads. Never played it. Any good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akaela Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Just to correct one point I keep seeing brought up. "Kids aren't meant to play this game" Well, that's an opinion. I'll give you a fact to replace it. With the coming Asia-Pacific launch, it comes to my country with an M advisory. It's not a restriction. Retailers will not be refusing sale to anyone, the only things that hold a kid back from picking up a game and logging in are their parents (many of whom will be playing also), and of course the kid finding the money for the monthly fee. "But kids can't agree to the ToS!" Well, in WoW a kid can agree to them. They just need to provide a parents email address so parental controls can be set. I would imagine EA will do the same thing (haven't checked it out, so they may have already done something similar). Edited February 16, 2012 by Akaela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenoAmi Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Never played it. Any good? BW does a great job with this game as well, and sexuality is handled. Going over Doaism in my World Religions class, there's a lot to say. Anyway, I think our point in this matter is that BW games generally are LGBT friendly, and the fact that SGRA and flirt options aren't available at launch are confounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Just to correct one point I keep seeing brought up. "Kids aren't meant to play this game" Well, that's an opinion. I'll give you a fact to replace it. With the coming Asia-Pacific launch, it comes to my country with an M advisory. It's not a restriction. Retailers will not be refusing sale to anyone, the only things that hold a kid back from picking up a game and logging in are their parents (many of whom will be playing also), and of course the kid finding the money for the monthly fee. "But kids can't agree to the ToS!" Well, in WoW a kid can agree to them. They just need to provide a parents email address so parental controls can be set. I would imagine EA will do the same thing (haven't checked it out, so they may have already done something similar). It's not a matter of whether it's a restriction of sale or not. The very advisory itself implies that the game is not intended for people under a certain age. It's not Bioware's job to raise children. It's their parents' job. And if they wish to deny their child a computer game because it has content they don't agree with I fully support them doing so. That's their call. It SHOULD be their call. It's not Bioware's call. Limiting the content of a game designed for people who aren't kids just in case kids get a hold of it is a circular argument. By that logic all games everywhere should be so child-friendly that they contain no violence, no gore, no dramatic scenes of tension, no romance of ANY description and no plot devices that might confuse a child's mind. However a given country handles its censorship, this game is not intended for little kids, and the content reflects that. Edited February 16, 2012 by Kioma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcaptainpants Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I am going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. Same-gender flirting should have no place in video games. But opposite-gender flirting does have a place in video games? I'm not following you. Can you explain why you feel one has a place but not the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akaela Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 But opposite-gender flirting does have a place in video games? I'm not following you. Can you explain why you feel one has a place but not the other? I'd like some clarification on that one too. Besides, there are many examples of homosexuality in everything from cartoons to movies, to video games. It's not a new concept. I still don't understand the big deal about having it with this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uluain Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 It is up to parents to decide what content is or is not appropriate for their children, and to monitor their choice of entertainment accordingly. BioWare is not a babysitter. And I would just like to remind people participating in this thread that we are not here to discuss whether same-gender content is appropriate for SWTOR. BioWare has already made the decision that it will be included. What this thread is about is the range of that inclusiveness. I have had many opportunities to [Flirt] with NPCs of the opposite gender from my character. I have not gotten anywhere near romacing a companion. My contention is that as same-gender content will be included insofar as companion NPC romance is concerned, it really would make very little sense were it not also present in more casual portrayals of affection and implied intimacy. Indeed, were it restricted to the former and omitted from the latter, I would question BioWare's commitment to inclusiveness. Not an issue for my Jedi - they won't be [Flirt]ing in any case. My Smuggler, however is another matter entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StSathar Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I only support this if there would still be three non-flirt chat options. It's already way too often that I have to choose between the two cheesey flirt options and one overly mean chat option with the opposite gender. I don't want to add more situations like that with the same gender. As you point out, there often are not "Three non-flirt chat options" now. Yes, this feature has the potential to restrict conversations more so than they are now (well, not really, since many times a player of the opposite gender would face the same "Restriction" in a given conversation). One suggestion, which goes way beyond the current topic, would be to permit more than three responses to some conversation points, with the belief that the game engine would already support this as programmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cythereal Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 As you point out, there often are not "Three non-flirt chat options" now. Yes, this feature has the potential to restrict conversations more so than they are now (well, not really, since many times a player of the opposite gender would face the same "Restriction" in a given conversation). One suggestion, which goes way beyond the current topic, would be to permit more than three responses to some conversation points, with the belief that the game engine would already support this as programmed. In other words: use the left side of the dialogue wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumay Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 i would personnally not like to have the sgra in the game, but that horse has left the barn. i just ask that BW make the option available to remove those flirt options from dialouge wheel. i have no desire to see Corso or Aric starting conversation with me in that manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Birdcage is a great film, watched it with my 2 daughters tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 i would personnally not like to have the sgra in the game, but that horse has left the barn. i just ask that BW make the option available to remove those flirt options from dialouge wheel. i have no desire to see Corso or Aric starting conversation with me in that manner. For the most part Corso and Aric, as I've seen, don't start conversation 'in that manner' unless you've already started expressing interest in them. Even if they do, not picking [Flirt] options solves the problem. A toggle is unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uluain Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 I know it's unnecessary, you know it's unnecessary. In the context of companion romances, as long ago as last September, BioWare said they feel it is unnecessary. What the toggle option is asking for is to not see it at all, as the next best thing to not having it in the game. I only find [Flirt] prompts intrusive because they never occur in a context that would appeal to my character. Although on occasion how the NPC approached the topic to open with was a little brash. This would need some care in the writing... but no, I don't think letting people pretend it doesn't exist is at all a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StSathar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Birdcage is a great film, watched it with my 2 daughters tonight. We digress, but I still remember going to see La Cage Aux Folles with my parents on Broadway when I was about fifteen or so. Completely over my head (asexual D&D computer geek that I was), but it retrospect, explains so much. Then there was taking them to see Vampire Lesbians of Sodom in some hole-in-the-wall in Tribecca for their anniversary... Err, umm, Same Gender [Flirt] options using the left side of the dialog wheel is a terrific idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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