Anyone notice the tooltip change on Raze?

[PringerZ]

"Melee attacks that strike a target affected by your Lightning Charge's Discharge have a 33% chance to finish the cooldown on Crushing Darkness and make your next Crushing Darkness activate instantly and cost 100% less Force. This effect cannot occur more than once every 7.5 seconds."

 

The tooltip doesn't reflect current ingame behavior, but if this is its intended behavior... bioware seems to really want to kill any and all hybrid specs for us.

[Sabbathius]

Yeah, I just saw that, was going to post about it. These are DEFINITELY intentional changes that are coming.

 

Last patch, they changed Induction tooltip to require Surging Charge. Now Raze tooltip requires Lightning Charge. Abilities still work the same, for now, but it is definitely looking less and less like a bug.

 

Looks like they're actively trying to wreck hybrid specs of any kind.

 

What I find funny though, is that they seem to be targeting Assassins only. I mean, Powertechs have a Shieldtech/Pyro build VERY similar to the Sin Darkness/Madness build. Very, VERY similar. But Assassin talent tooltips are being changed, without anything appearing in patch notes by the way, while Powertech tooltips aren't changing.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Sabbathius

[Jabtangs]

so... someone tell me why they keep on nerfing sin/shadows while they are the most UNWANTED class in hm/ops?

[Sabbathius]

so... someone tell me why they keep on nerfing sin/shadows while they are the most UNWANTED class in hm/ops?

 

Bioware is listening to user feedback? lol

 

Reminds me of a letter I just got from my bank yesterday morning. It says "To serve you better, we are moving our branch 8km away from you. Have a nice day."

[Jabtangs]

Bioware is listening to user feedback? lol

 

Reminds me of a letter I just got from my bank yesterday morning. It says "To serve you better, we are moving our branch 8km away from you. Have a nice day."

 

lol. yea my sniper alt is almost 50. I might just switch off to that sooner or later.

 

gonna check how sniper forum is doing

[Vyrion]

You've gotta be kidding me...forget about the hybrid nerf, this nerfs pure Madness too. Raze is great for soloing and silver elites/adds in raids because you just DF, shock and then thrash to get procs, nobody wastes a discharge on stuff like that and now you will have to. Because you know, Madness burst was too high. This is just plain stupid.

 

Wake the hell up Bioware, my rotation is already 7 keys not counting situational ones and with a positional melee requirement and BH is 1 and you are nerfing *me*? Well ok, technically BH rotation is 2 keys, they do occasionally cast heatseeker, sorry.

 

Edit: Oh and they added an ICD! So there goes the good crit scaling! Which is a boss dps nerf too. Because you know, Assassins were known to be the best boss dps around. Wow, just ----ing peachy.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Vyrion

[Jabtangs]

Edit: Oh and they added an ICD! So there goes the good crit scaling! Which is a boss dps nerf too. Because you know, Assassins were known to be the best boss dps around. Wow, just ----ing peachy.

 

I think you need a </sarcasm> at the end?

[heavensdust]

What I don't understand is why the target has to be affected by discharge, and not simply having the user be in lightning charge stance. Edited January 31, 2012 by heavensdust

[jkcheng]

Wow this sucks, this also effects those of us already in full Madness build to offtank in Dark Charge... And yeah, requiring Discharge to be active when I can't even tell which Discharge on my the mob is mine for Raze to proc is plain stupid. This is a direct nerf with absolutely no reason.

[kainsec]

I would actually call that a wash. It greatly increases Razes chance to proc (remember the current mechanic is was based off a melee crit not just a melee attack so it's effectively tripled it's likelihood to proc unless i misread the new tooltip) but prevents it from back to back proccing which let's face it would be OP.

 

I am concerned however, at the number of tooltip changes that indicate hybrid play is going away. While i have always said sins are fine in pvp that has always been biased on the fact that our hybrid play is strong without a good viable hybrid option I see no reason if those tooltip changes become actual gameplay changes to ever not be 31/0/10 spec since it's the only one with a lifespan longer than a fruit fly in pvp. I am not concerned about PvE implications given the fact that all our specs are fine in PvE where aggro can be controlled most of the time.

[Vyrion]

All of our specs are not "ok" in PvE. If nothing else does then the gap between Deception and Madness should convince you, they aren't even approximately even with one another, and although Madness is currently not bad it has a much higher skill cap than sorc or BH with no reward; in fact it's probably a little worse than either sustained and far worse burst.

 

And the Raze thing is a nerf. With 4pc and proper mod switching Raze procced a lot more than what this will force it to. It's not even just the 7.5 sec gaps either, what if the ICD comes off as you are reapplying DoT's etc? Remember that Madness spec is only quasi-melee, and keeping your DoT's ticking and UKnow/Deathmark applied is higher on the priority list than spamming Thrash. It will average to a CrD going off once every 10 seconds or so which is a significant DPS loss over the course of a boss fight.

[Sabbathius]

All of our specs are not "ok" in PvE.

 

I'm totally with you on this one. Assassins are nowhere near fine in PvE, compared to other classes. In the amount of skill and work involved, especially compared to the payoff you get for it, we're near the bottom of the PvE barrel.

[WickedImage]

Isn't this already considered one of the most lackluster classes.....given all the situational and positional needs of the attacks/chains?

Can anyone shed some light on this as to why they would need to further nerf this class? I already have a ton of complaints about its level of difficulty to play when compared to some other classes. I don't mind a higher learning curve if there is a payoff at the end but, there doesn't appear to be one with this class?

 

Am I way off base here or...?

[kijthae]

These are additonal differences.

 

 

overcharge saber

reduces dark charge's effect occur to 3 seconds

 

Crackling Charge

decreases cooldown of discharge

[Sabbathius]

overcharge saber

reduces dark charge's effect occur to 3 seconds

 

That's been there since previous patch, when they increased the amount of healing Dark Charge does when it procs.

 

Crackling Charge

decreases cooldown of discharge

 

Dunno about this one, will have to look it up. Still bad though.

[jkcheng]

Isn't this already considered one of the most lackluster classes.....given all the situational and positional needs of the attacks/chains?

Can anyone shed some light on this as to why they would need to further nerf this class? I already have a ton of complaints about its level of difficulty to play when compared to some other classes. I don't mind a higher learning curve if there is a payoff at the end but, there doesn't appear to be one with this class?

 

Am I way off base here or...?

 

Actually, w/o the crit requirement, I wouldn't consider this a nerf. Thanks to the previous poster for pointing that out. As for why this was done, BW has stated they don't want hybrid specs, why I do not know, but it is what they said. This was done to prevent hybrid specs from being viable and has essentially, along with the change to the Induction talent, succeeded in doing so.

 

To be honest, w/o the crit requirement, I like this new iteration better, but it does kind of takes away from my solo'ing elites/champions in Dark Charge as I'd no longer get Raze procs while doing so. Won't kill me but it'd certainly make those fights longer. With this change, I think it makes our rotation a bit more sustained, you will not have these spurts where you couldn't get a Raze proc for 10 Thrash hits, nor will you have moments where you proc it right away and have Raze up b4 the previous Crushing Darkness DoT has worn off.

[jkcheng]

I'm totally with you on this one. Assassins are nowhere near fine in PvE, compared to other classes. In the amount of skill and work involved, especially compared to the payoff you get for it, we're near the bottom of the PvE barrel.

 

The amount of skill and attention required is what makes the class fun. I'd not want to be playing a class that spams two buttons (what I hear BH's do). There are prob about the same number of ppl on BH forums complaining their dps is boring.

 

The only thing I'd like to see is balancing melee and ranged dps as far as roles in raids. I do not want to see "LFM DPS for Karagga's Palace, ranged only please." This never happens the other way around.

[Vyrion]

Assuming you have good gear (4pc), an agent in raid and exploitive strikes up, you would have a Thrash crit chance of ~60% so the chances of getting a Raze proc per Thrash hit are ~20%. Post nerf it would probably be 33% per hit, but now it has an ICD!

 

Meaning that the value of Thrash while the ICD is ticking is dropped substantially because instead of essentially dealing Thrash damage + .2(CrD) it now just deals it's own damage except for on the first Thrash of each fresh ICD, which again, won't even match up exactly because of other cycle requirements.

 

Again, it has to do with the cycle, the way we play we DF->apply DoTs->Shock then spam thrash until procs happen or something needs to be reapplied. This rewards the possibility of close together Raze procs and an ICD becomes unduly punishing because by the time it ticks back we might be doing something else that isn't a melee attack because it is higher on the priority list.

 

As it stands, let's say you Thrash 3 times after you put your DoT's and Uknow up, you have ~75% p of getting a CrD, and a ~34% chance of at least two. Post nerf you would have something like a .9 chance of one, but just that one, well sorry but (.75 + .34(2) - (.75*.34)) > .9 so the a priori probabilistic damage is higher, actually it's even more out of whack than that because it's .34 chance of AT LEAST 2, but I'm not doing more math. Oh and please nobody bring up gambler's fallacy, yeah the contingent probability of the second crit doesn't change and my formulation actually accounts for that if you think about it.

 

Edit: Original normalized damage calc a bit off, new formulation is more "careful" and actually shows it to be even more of a nerf /sigh. Oh and yeah it sums to more than 1 because it's not a probability calc but an expected damage calc, as in, pre nerf CrD was expected to deal slightly more than the damage of 1 cast because it could proc multiple times, now it can't.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Vyrion

[jkcheng]

Assuming you have good gear (4pc), an agent in raid and exploitive strikes up, you would have a Thrash crit chance of ~60% so the chances of getting a Raze proc per Thrash hit are ~20%. Post nerf it would probably be 33% per hit, but now it has an ICD!

 

Meaning that the value of Thrash while the ICD is ticking is dropped substantially because instead of essentially dealing Thrash damage + .2(CrD) it now just deals it's own damage except for on the first Thrash of each fresh ICD, which again, won't even match up exactly because of other cycle requirements.

 

Again, it has to do with the cycle, the way we play we DF->apply DoTs->Shock then spam thrash until procs happen or something needs to be reapplied. This rewards the possibility of close together Raze procs and an ICD becomes unduly punishing because by the time it ticks back we might be doing something else that isn't a melee attack because it is higher on the priority list.

 

As it stands, let's say you Thrash 3 times after you put your DoT's and Uknow up, you have ~75% p of getting a CrD, and a ~34% chance of at least two. Post nerf you would have something like a .9 chance of one, but just that one, well sorry but .75 + .34(2) > .9 so the a priori probabilistic damage is higher, actually it's even more out of what than that because it's .34 chance of AT LEAST 2, but I'm not doing more math. Oh and please nobody bring up gambler's fallacy, yeah the contingent probability of the second crit doesn't change and my formulation actually accounts for that if you think about it.

 

What if you assume we don't have 4pc, like someone in Exotech gear which would still be good but no set bonus? I PvP on the side and won't be wearing my 4pc set when I do not, I also don't intend to wear my raid gear for doing dailies (higher repair cost with little time saved). I certainly would prefer not to have a mechanic that only benefits with specific gear.

[theonepanda]

Aside from killing hybrid builds, this is actually a good thing .

 

It is no longer dependent on a proc of a proc, that is, it doesn't require two RNG rolls to accomplish.

 

They are moving towards the WoW model of procs, which have a relatively high(er) chance, but an ICD.

 

This does 2 things.

 

1) Evens out damage over time.

and correspondingly,

2) Removes possible overpowering burst during pvp.

 

This means you are less likely to be screwed by RNG, and will never clip a Raze or force cap while using it.

 

I agree that the actual damage may have been nerfed. But the mechanical change I like.

 

Maybe if they made it like, 50% chance to proc, and 6 sec ICD, that would be great.

 

However, I think despite all the whining, your damage will remain relatively unchanged.

[Vyrion]

Yes, I care about raiding so I complain about raiding, PvP specs use Darkness AAIK anyway but again I never liked battlegrounds. That said, I did a bit of a herp derp on the expected normalized damage, I guess it's really more like CrD*(.75 + .34(2) - (.75*.34)) which is really even worse nerfwise.

[Astarica]

It's rather obvious that each of the 3 stances we get corresponds to a tree. So there's nothing wrong with actually carrying this out.

 

Now since Dark Charge > all right now, this is a significant nerf since the advantages of Dark Charge outweighs the advantages of the other two stances. They really should think about how to add some survivality to Deception/Madness that is not dependent on Dark Charge, and presumably deep enough so that you can't use it easily as a Darkness.

[jkcheng]

It's rather obvious that each of the 3 stances we get corresponds to a tree. So there's nothing wrong with actually carrying this out.

 

Now since Dark Charge > all right now, this is a significant nerf since the advantages of Dark Charge outweighs the advantages of the other two stances. They really should think about how to add some survivality to Deception/Madness that is not dependent on Dark Charge, and presumably deep enough so that you can't use it easily as a Darkness.

 

I assume your second paragrah is in regard to PvP only.

[jkcheng]

Aside from killing hybrid builds, this is actually a good thing .

 

It is no longer dependent on a proc of a proc, that is, it doesn't require two RNG rolls to accomplish.

 

They are moving towards the WoW model of procs, which have a relatively high(er) chance, but an ICD.

 

This does 2 things.

 

1) Evens out damage over time.

and correspondingly,

2) Removes possible overpowering burst during pvp.

 

This means you are less likely to be screwed by RNG, and will never clip a Raze or force cap while using it.

 

I agree that the actual damage may have been nerfed. But the mechanical change I like.

 

Maybe if they made it like, 50% chance to proc, and 6 sec ICD, that would be great.

 

However, I think despite all the whining, your damage will remain relatively unchanged.

 

This is where I stand on this issue as well, and also we don't really know if this is still a nerf if you're not wearing 4pcs of set gear. Those in 4pc set complaining about this change are going to be complaining if they don't make this change and our next set of raid gear has a diff set bonus.

 

I think this change makes the proc a lot less erratic, you will not have instances where you proc 3 in a row and then go a whole few minutes w/o any procs.

[Jabtangs]

well the thing is, we don't know the "entire" changes we will be getting in 1.2. We might get a overall base dmg buff and to compensate that overdamage we are getting slight nerfs here and there.

 

I believe it is quite early to be QQing or discussing the matter (since we don't know the entire picture), except for "WHY DOES BW MAKE TOOLTIPS EXPLAIN THE WRONG THING?".