Retaliation + Cloak of Pain + Cloak of Annihilation = nearly 100 percent uptime?

[OniGanon]

This little gem is the reality evolved from all this as to why CoA is even more beneficial than I thought.

 

We could use that extra Rage on abilities that are not Retaliation, though...

 

 

Compared to solo PvE, PvP sees much less uptime on CoP and considerably fewer Retaliation procs. These two things would seem to make CoA hard to justify taking over other Annihilation talents.

[Lashlarue]

Im done Your responses speak for themselves.

 

Exactly. They prove how wrong you are. You've spent the entire thread going 'No not worth it', then when I show you why, you (and others) won't admit to it. That's fine.

 

I guess I need to make things as simple as possible.

 

The main purpose of the video was to show two things:

• First, you do get hit enough even by a single NPC to extend CoP's uptime to max. A single elite NPC, which (likely) has a lower accuracy modifier than a player, was able to initially keep up CoP for it's full 30 seconds. Some people incorrectly thought that you'd have to be hit multiple times per second for CoP to stay up, but this shows it is simply not true.
  
• Second, by using Retaliation, you can greatly extend CoP's uptime. 42 seconds out of a 50 second fight isn't too shabby
  

.

 

Assault was used for two reasons:

• One, it's the lowest damage attack in order extend the fight to show how long CoP would proc from the beginning. Mowing through the NPC with all my high damage abilities wouldn't have shown anything really because the NPC would be dead before CoP expired.
  
• Two, I thought it was going to be necessary to keep up with Retaliates rage cost, but I learned I wouldn't even need it on a continual basis because CoC basically takes care of that for me
  

.

 

*********************

 

To put how things evolved another way, in a more simple way:

 

Everyone agrees CoP is an awesome ability. The goal is to maximize an awesome ability's uptime. I'm not spec'ing a build around two abilities. I'm making sure those abilities better enhance the class as a whole. Who doesn't want 20 percent damage reduction for as long as possible?

 

Going forward with that...Think of it as a circle starting with CoP.

 

In order to maximize (increase) CoP uptime, you have to maximize your use of Retaliate with CoA. In order to maximize (increase) your usage of Retaliate, you have to mitigate (reduce) the rage cost. Maximizing your rage generation with CoC allows you to use Retaliate more effectively by reducing it's rage cost. While it does not specifically reduce Retaliate rage cost, it helps to think of it as a Retaliate rage reducer by generating rage by keeping CoP as much as possible.

 

Retaliate then becomes a single rage attack that cannot be parried, blocked and cannot miss that's off the GCD.

 

Think outside the box in terms of "How can I make Retaliate more effective in keeping CoP up as much as possible while reducing its rage cost?".

 

The fact that Retaliate cannot be blocked, parried, or missed is just a bonus, nevermind the fact it's off the GCD. You want CoP uptime to maximized because even if it's up for 30 seconds, it procs enough force damage that it's basically 10 percent of a tank's HP in Battlemaster gear.

 

Going back to the circle analogy, it' starts with CoP. In moves around to using CoA then to Retaliate, using CoC to minimize Retaliates rage cost. This leads back to longer CoP uptime which leads to longer damage mitigation AND rage generation which leads to...Well, you get the picture.

 

In the immortal words of somebody else in this thread...

 

TRY IT.

 

It's not something you would want until you're probably max level, because up until that point, the points could be better spent elsewhere.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Lashlarue

[Sayc]

I've been paying attention as best I can as a result of this thread. In the past ffive WZs, I have yet to have a retaliation proc. I could have missed a few, but even still, that isn't a lot to work with.

 

edit: just got one in my 6th wz.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Sayc

[NoNeedforCavalry]

to be worth using retaliation needs cloak of annihilation to give it some actual utility AND cloak of carnage to make the rage cost worth it.

 

That is 4 points to turn a bad attack into just a lackluster attack. that is 10% of your total talent points.

 

I personally usually use cloak of pain when closing on a player or chasing a kiter to keep the fight closer to balanced. If this is the case, i'm often out of range for retaliation anyways.

 

Retaliation has a 6sec CD, so it isn't something that can just be spammed to get Cloak of pain back up. To top that off, the only time you will have the defense to use it reliably is when you pop saber ward.

 

and cloak of pain lasts 6 seconds if not hit, so that 30sec downtime could be much longer.

 

so in conclusion:

10% of your talent points

dumping 3 rage/6sec which you might not have to spare

your defense is low, so activating retaliation is unlikely

only reliable way to boost activation comes every 3 mins.

 

If you plan on off-tanking, take it. get some defense gear, and maybe you can make something of it. Just remember that we are a DPS class, and retaliation lacks damage/rage as well as will be eating 10% of your talent points.

[OniGanon]

The main purpose of the video was to show two things:

• First, you do get hit enough even by a single NPC to extend CoP's uptime to max. A single elite NPC, which (likely) has a lower accuracy modifier than a player, was able to initially keep up CoP for it's full 30 seconds. Some people incorrectly thought that you'd have to be hit multiple times per second for CoP to stay up, but this shows it is simply not true.
  
• Second, by using Retaliation, you can greatly extend CoP's uptime. 42 seconds out of a 50 second fight isn't too shabby
  

.

 

That's great and all in solo PvE, where every enemy will target you and only you, are guaranteed to attack you whenever possible, and you get a fair few Retaliation procs.

 

The problem is in how this well translates into PvP and group PvE (or to be more precise: how is does not), where you are not always being targeted, enemies are not guaranteed to try and attack you every chance they get, and you are not likely to see a lot of Retaliation procs.

[Nmaharg]

This works really well, but I use macros so it may not work as well for those that don't. You're pretty much sacrificing dps for defense, which I'm more than okay with as far as PvP goes, however in PvE it simply isn't viable. It's not that I keep cloak up at all times, but every single time I need it its there. Makes those 2 v 1s far more manageable. I took out a sorc and a merc both in almost full BM. I was able to use cloak twice in the fight. I have a new PvP build now, thanks.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100rIbRrMMbGzZhZhr.1

[Sayc]

BM Sorc/Merc couldn't take a mara down in ~45 seconds...?

[Nmaharg]

BM Sorc/Merc couldn't take a mara down in ~45 seconds...?

 

Nope. Between self heals, medpac and defensive cooldowns. Mara have like 3 health bars.

[Deviltreh]

to be worth using retaliation needs cloak of annihilation to give it some actual utility AND cloak of carnage to make the rage cost worth it.

 

That is 4 points to turn a bad attack into just a lackluster attack. that is 10% of your total talent points.

 

I personally usually use cloak of pain when closing on a player or chasing a kiter to keep the fight closer to balanced. If this is the case, i'm often out of range for retaliation anyways.

 

Retaliation has a 6sec CD, so it isn't something that can just be spammed to get Cloak of pain back up. To top that off, the only time you will have the defense to use it reliably is when you pop saber ward.

 

and cloak of pain lasts 6 seconds if not hit, so that 30sec downtime could be much longer.

 

so in conclusion:

10% of your talent points

dumping 3 rage/6sec which you might not have to spare

your defense is low, so activating retaliation is unlikely

only reliable way to boost activation comes every 3 mins.

 

If you plan on off-tanking, take it. get some defense gear, and maybe you can make something of it. Just remember that we are a DPS class, and retaliation lacks damage/rage as well as will be eating 10% of your talent points.

 

To be fair obsfucate on physical attackers yeld you a lot of deflects/parries.

[Lashlarue]

This works really well, but I use macros so it may not work as well for those that don't. You're pretty much sacrificing dps for defense, which I'm more than okay with as far as PvP goes, however in PvE it simply isn't viable. It's not that I keep cloak up at all times, but every single time I need it its there. Makes those 2 v 1s far more manageable. I took out a sorc and a merc both in almost full BM. I was able to use cloak twice in the fight. I have a new PvP build now, thanks.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100rIbRrMMbGzZhZhr.1

 

I don't think you sacrifice any damage, but you hit the nail on the head: To use it effectively, you pretty much have to use a macro of some sort unless you're like greased lightning on the keyboard. My macro activates Retaliate every time I hit assault (if it's available).

 

To me, when Retaliation is paired with CoC, you're basically using CoC to act as a rage reducer (or generator, whatever) to mitigate the rage cost of Retaliate. In a broad view, you're reducing the rage cost of Retaliate to 1 (assuming solid rage gain via CoC). At worst, Retaliate effectively costs you 2 rage, but it's still a good attack to use for the simple fact it cannot miss, cannot be blocked, cannot be parried, and is off the GCD.

[NoNeedforCavalry]

my solution to the mara retaliation debate can be found here

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2285558#post2285558

 

TL;DR: Mara/Sents get almost no use out of the on-defense only retaliation. Allow to activate on crit so that we may use it offensively.