Chazcon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) DISCLAIMER: This is not a guide, meaning I’m not trying to convince anyone this is some super build or way to play. It’s just my setup and thinking on a Vanguard tank in SWTOR at level 40. I’m not a big PvP’r so there is nothing in here really for red players. A lot of this is just copied over from my earlier posts, things changed are what I have learned since level 30. IN GENERAL: I am really enjoying playing a Vanguard. This game is a blast (and a trip at times). I've always played a tank character in every game for years now, even before there was what you could call a modern MMO aggro mechanic. I have played my Vanguard to 40 and this is my take on the class so far. I really didn't feel 'tanky' until the mid-20's and like a lot of games, all classes have a protective boost at low levels and aren't fully specialized until at or near initial cap (level 50). By 'tanky' I mean having the two main attributes of a tank, survivability and the ability to generate and maintain aggro through means other than DPS. At 30 I finally had all 3 taunts and most of my other skills. What I am still missing at 40 is my second ammo regen and second heal, which are part of a tank's survivability. Looking forward to the run up to 50. KEYMAP: I am an old school keyboarder and would throw away the mouse completely if I could. Everybody plays differently, some use a keyboard and mouse combo like in a FPS game, some folks are clickers and use the mouse only. All these ways are viable, it's personal preference. I like to keep my hands always on the keys because trying to acquire the mouse pointer on the screen in combat is difficult in a fast and confusing fight where a lot of stuff is going on. It screws me up and gets me and my party killed. I remap the key bindings to a custom keymap that is basically what I have used in different games for years, left hand = movement and taunts, right hand = combat. Here is a link for anyone interested: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6356/keymapvgchazcon3173.png Note that I have changed my key mapping as I have leveled to 40 a few times, new skills are added, some are taken off and some are moved around. I want it to be easy, simple and intuitive. And there’s no room for junk skills that don’t work for me. BUILD: This is subject to change, and it has since my take on it at 30, and I'm sure I will toy with this at 50. I'm using a 31 7 3 build right now. I focused on getting Smoke Grenade at 20 and Storm at 30. I will not be using Energy Blast as I think it's unnecessary for ammo regen and not worth the cost of 1 skill point for the DPS it does. Here is my current thinking for reference: http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2448/buildvgchazcon3173.png For me as a tank I want maximum survivability and that’s what I’ve focused on here. GEAR: Well my earlier thinking about going all orange gear and upgrading is still a cheap way to stay geared up as you level, just know you’ll junk most of it as you acquire good crafted gear. from the mid-30’s on I’ve found that I can some bits of my own gear that are better than what I get from Commendation Vendors. So I basically wear a mix of orange comm vendor gear, my own crafted gear, a few bits I buy off GTN, and some bits that I loot or get from mission rewards. I’ve found that loot / mission gear is not very good, I hardly ever use a piece of it. So I tend to choose comm medals as rewards when I have a choice. CRAFTING:What I wrote at level 30: Are there any crew skills that are better for a tank class? I went with Armormech so that I could craft my own heavy armor. But the reality is that it's difficult and expensive to max your crafting AND find or reverse engineer all the schematics you'll need as you level. I’m always behind the curve. It's much cheaper to trade for or purchase your armor. If any crew skill is somehow an advantage for a tank I would say Biochem so that you can make and use reusable medpacs and stims. Something for me to think about changing. Now at level 40 I have found that my crafting is really starting to provide some really nice pieces. It didn’t hurt that I was out of town for a few days and to get my SWTOR jones I studied up on crafting to understand the mechanics. Here is a GREAT write-up on crafting written by Slaign: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=45866 Read this, you’ll be glad you did. I don’t feel like I should have taken Biochem anymore, I’m looking forward to what I can make at 50 as an Armormech. STATS: I am prioritizing my stats in this order: Endurance, Aim, Defense, Shield Chance, Absorption. From past experience in other games I am wary of stacking one stat over all others, a balance of tank-oriented stats has always produced the most resilient tank character. The jury is still out on what this balance is in this game, but following the general school of thought for tanks in MMO games can't lead me too far astray. Endurance is the stat that increases your health pool and that is always a priority for a tank. But a good tank is more than a big 'ol bag of health and damage avoidance and/or mitigation are really what increase our survivability. Defense increases your chance to avoid a hit completely and that is a secondary stat to always try to get on a piece of gear. Shield Chance can be thought of as the chance for partial mitigation if the Defense check fails, and Absorption affects the amount of that partial mitigation. So roughly your lines of defense are these: Defense/Shield Chance & Absorption/Health Pool (Endurance). So why not go after every bit of Defense gear you can find? Well I do but keep in mind that Defense/Shield Chance/Absorption gives you a CHANCE of avoiding a hit, while your health pool that is created with Endurance is always there. In the end you want a good balance of all these. And Aim of course is necessary for DPS generation which although is traditionally not a tanks main priority, needs to be maintained in this game because of the small fellowship size. With small fellowships every players in the group needs to be contributing his or her share of DPS. To this I would add a link to this excellent tanking guide by Elobi: http://swtor-tanking.com/?p=322 Note this is a guide for Jedi Guardian but all of the mechanics and theory apply to Trooper Vanguard and it is a must-read. POTS: I carry a stack of the best Medpacs I can get and also a stack of Fortitude stims (Endurance). I won't waste a stim on trash mobs but before a real fight I'll always use one. There are crafted stims that give Endurance and also other tank-useful stat boosts, get the best you can find for your level. As I approached 40 I started using Adrenals for their in-combat OH CRAP! stat boost and learned to use the same thing on certain relics as well. I added these to my keymap, very handy. MATH: There has been some math work done now and the post I mentioned earlier by Elobi is a great one, also check this out, by Taugrim: http://taugrim.com/2012/01/04/guide-to-bounty-hunter-powertech-trooper-vanguard-mechanics-and-pvp/ Even though it’s a PvP-oriented guide there is some good PvE stuff in there. DATACRONS: These are free stats boost so why wouldn't you go after them? And maybe there is a big grand prize at the end that will REALLY make it worthwhile - that's what I keep telling myself as I sit on a balloon for 30m or have been falling off a pipe all evening, lol. The reality is that you get stats boosts and also can craft nice Relics in the Jedi Temple from matrix shards. COMPANION: Aric Jorgan. Period. DPS to compliment your tanking. Tanks don't need healer companions, we sure don't need the M1-4X tank, and nobody needs C2-N2 lol. Of course I am only 30 and have not 'spoiled' myself, I have no idea what the rest of my companions will be like. But unless one of them is a better DPS character that Jorgan I will be keeping him alongside at 50. He gets all my hand-me-down gear, except that I keep him equipped with the best cannon I can find. His stats priorities are Aim/Critical and when I can craft a better piece for him, or find one in loot, he gets it. Also if I have extra Commendation Medals I'll get him a bit or two of Orange gear and keep his item mods upgraded. For him it's Reflex Barrels and Armoring, and Enhancements that increase his Critical. I took M1-4X out when I got him. The two of us fighting was like watching paint dry. No danger and no DPS lol. We did have fun Harpooning mobs back and forth from 20m like a human yo-yo. One important thing to do with your companion is to play him just like your main character, don't just leave him to auto-target. Direct his fire, choose his targets, use him to start fights when the need arises. At 40 I still use and believe in Jorgan (I call him Fuzzy) for max DPS compared to all my other companions. I NEED the DPS, I don’t need heals and I sure don’t need another tank. I haven’t run into anything yet where this isn’t true. SKILLS: A brief take on skills I use, in no particular order: - TAUNTS: At 30 we have all three of our taunts, Neural Jolt, Sonic Round, and Harpoon. Never start a fight with a taunt, that's a waste of a cooldown. Save them for getting aggro back from your mates during a fight. When fighting solo you'll rarely use anything other than Harpoon. The 'poon is great for plucking a mob, especially a patrol, to your group without alerting nearby mobs (as long as they aren't aggro-tied). It is also useful for rounding up mobs or yanking them into melee range. As we get higher up in the skill tree Harpoon stuns as well which is some nice CC. And everybody loves a Vanguard on a datacron run, you become the hoist for your mates (provided you can get up there first). - STORM: Right now I save this for two things - 1) Getting me out of a kill zone during a fight, by charging at the mob that is firing on me, and 2) to charge into the mobs as part of rounding them up. If I haven't used it by the end of the fight it's a good finisher too. Storm causes some damage, interrupts and stuns as I get higher in the skill tree and I expect to use it more for its CC ability later. Now, many folks use Storm as a starter or early in a fight to get them to the mobs as part of the rounding-up process. Right now I don't want to waste that cooldown, and I don't see the time it takes to run in as significant. But, I am only 30 and this may change, have to keep an open mind. OK now at 40 I still use Storm as described above, but I would add that it is great for moving around the fight and positioning yourself as a rounding-up tool. For example when facing a group of say 3 mobs on one side and a loner away from them, I will Storm to the group of 3 and Harpoon the loner to me, and then I have them where I want them. - HAMMER SHOT: Unglamorous and way underrated, and way underused by a lot of players. You can tell who they are, the ones complaining about a lack of ammo. It's just not as cool as all those other flashy skills we have. I mix in HS a lot while fighting. I bet that 30-50% of my skills used during a fight are HS. depending on the situation, fights take place at 30m range or melee range. I use HS at both. It paces my ammo usage and provides good damage. And like a bad smell it's always there. At 40 now I can reiterate that Hammer Shot is my most-used skill. In fact I would say if you think you’re a good tank, play with only your 3 taunts, your heals & ammo, and one DPS skill, Hammer Shot. If you can’t tank effectively like that you need to get back to work on tanking fundamentals. All the other cool skills we have are just icing on the cake, tools to make things easier. - EXPLOSIVE ROUND: The other half of my bread-and-butter spam rotation at range along with Hammer Shot. Explosive Round uses a lot of ammo but there are situations where I will knowingly spam it until ammo runs dry because I need a fast barrage of DPS. - FULL AUTO: I don't use this very much, to me it's only good for CC on a trash mob if my Sticky Grenade is on cooldown. I'd rather pop off a couple Hammer Shots than one Full Auto. Probably the one skill I wouldn't miss if I didn't have it. Nothing better to replace it right now. - HIGH IMPACT BOLT: I use HIB as a starter after a grenade or later in a fight whenever it's off cooldown and activated. Nice big ranged hit. I'll use it up close too whenever I can. - GRENADES: We have three grenades, Sticky Grenade is a great fight starter for both trash mobs, which it stuns and allows an HIB shot, and bosses, because of its damage and the ability to knock down all nearby trash mobs. I use Sticky early and often, throughout a long fight whenever it's off cooldown. Cyro Grenade is great on bosses (or trash mobs after Sticky). It CC's them a bit and allows a HIB shot. I use Cyro throughout a fight as soon as it's off cooldown, especially when fighting multiple tough mobs and keep them locked down as much as possible. Smoke Grenade is great when tanking a boss or multiple mobs. It lowers their damage output and is another reason to fight up close. Keep the smoke at your feet as much as possible. - EXPLOSIVE SURGE: I think of this as a defensive skill, it does some damage but most useful is the Static Field it generates that lowers the damage output of nearby mobs. It costs 3 ammo so I try to only use it on multiple mobs. I think of it as my AoE Static Field. - ION PULSE: This is part of my up-close bread and butter rotation along with Hammer Shot (yes Hammer Shot). It doesn't do a great deal of damage but it generates the Static Field, and I think of it as my single-target Static Field skill. - PULSE CANNON: This baby is a great up-close AoE damage dealer and I use it as soon as it's off cooldown. I'll use it on a single target too. - STOCK STRIKE: This does nice up-close damage and triggers your Ion Cell. I watch for it to go off cooldown and use it whenever I can. - BLITZ: I used Blitz for a while but this thing is garbage. It basically does a big hit on little mobs under certain circumstances – it has too small a window for usage and it’s never lit up it seems. And I don’t need a big hit on trash mobs – they die fast and easy. I need a big hit on BIG mobs, lol. - REACTIVE SHIELD: I will pop this when I feel I'm in danger or about to get tagged by a big mob. It doesn't make us invulnerable but does help some. - TENACITY: Removes incapacitating effects from mobs. I use this all the time, although I question it's usefulness because I haven't encountered a CC hit yet that lasts very long. Maybe at higher levels it will come in handy. - RIOT STRIKE: I have Riot Strike on my bar in place of Neural Surge until I get it. I have used RS occasionally but it doesn't seem very useful. But there is a lot of game left between 40 and 50 and beyond. In other games my interrupts were always a key part of my skill set. I'm sure that will be the case here as well. My thinking is that Neural Surge will be my interrupt but I can't comment on that yet. Neural Surge is an AoE stun so I expect I will be using them both. - MORTAR VOLLEY: Great fight starter and I also use it during a fight if I have an easy target at range and feel I have time to mess with it. Does nice AoE damage and knocks down mobs. I find I use this a lot to plow through trash mobs, it’s usually off cooldown about every other trash mod group. POSITIONING: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. We are better up close, not fighting at range. The reason is that we have AoE skills that reduce mobs damage output that are effective only at close range (5m). These are Explosive Surge (and Ion Pulse single target) and Smoke Grenade. Also, even though our primary job is not to generate DPS, our highest damage dealing skills are close range skills (Pulse Cannon, Stock Strike). This is good because in most other games typically the tank runs forward, drawing aggro from all the mobs in a group, rounds them up so that the DPS players can make the most effective use of their AoE DPS skills, and lets the mobs wail away while the DPS kills them and the healer helps keep the tank alive. That is still an effective basic concept here, but the unique twist in this game is that we will find ourselves facing ranged mobs that won't run to us when we aggro them. I look at this as a fresh challenge as a tank. Also the fact that fights in this game are fast and furious makes for a great adrenalin-rush tanking experience where you have to think and act fast. Heck, in some other games like LOTRO I could round up all the mobs, get a big aggro lead, and go make a sandwich in a boss fight while my fellowship burned down mobs. No way you can do that here. I love it. So how do you round up mobs when they stay spread out and just fire at you? If you are fighting all ranged mobs - if you have a person with a good CC in your group, like a Commando's Sleep, CC one mob, run or Storm to one, and use Harpoon to pull a loose mob to you. That gets one locked down and two rounded up that you can kill first. Then finish off the CC'd mob. Sometimes the best you can do is round up two mobs. Of course if the fight is long enough Harpoon can be used again. If you are fighting a mix of melees and ranged mobs, you know the melees will charge you and this gets easier, run to a ranged mob, the melees will follow, and 'poon any loose ranged mobs to you. Be aware that if you are just burning through trash mobs, they usually don't live long enough to go through rounding them up, these kind of run-and-gun fights happen at range and you probably won't even act like a tank, you're just additional DPS. I guess the bottom line is that in most fights your job is to get close, round up as many mobs as you can on you, keep all the loose (not CC'd) mobs aggroed on you, make sure you keep Static Field up and stay alive, and do as much DPS as you can as well. At 40 now I would still say that a Vanguard is best up close, where we can use our AoE debuffs (like Explosive Surge and Smoke Grenade), AoE DoT with Shock (from our Ion Cell/Ion Pulse/Pulse Cannon and our skill tree Ion Overload) , AoE DPS from Pulse Cannon and to a lesser degree from Explosive Surge, and single-target DPS from Stock Strike. But we can also tank at range on lesser mobs. SKILL ROTATIONS: What I wrote at level 30: Basically I have two rotations and they are simple, at range I spam Hammer Shot/Explosive Round and hit HIB when possible, up close I spam Hammer Shot/Ion Pulse and hit Stock Strike, Pulse Cannon, Smoke Grenade, Explosive Surge as soon as they come off cooldowns. I will also throw Cyro and Sticky Grenades when they come off cooldown from any range. Well at level 40 now I tend to split out Explosive Surge and Ion Pulse like I described earlier depending on whether I have a single target or multiple mobs on me, to save ammo. STARTERS/TACTICS: Tactics change depending on situation and we will adjust accordingly. We always have a plan. But when plans break down your instincts have to get you through. What I start a fight with depends on the situation and what we're fighting. And of course what the group leader directs me to do. The tank CAN lead a group but usually the tank is too busy and too much in the thick of the fighting to lead effectively. The same is true of your healer and the best group leaders in my opinion are a pure CC class, followed by a ranged DPS class. They can watch and direct the entire fight much better. Even though you are our front when the group is moving, you take your direction from the group leader. Tanks need to be aggressive and fearless by nature but not reckless. Don't be an idiot and get your group killed by charging into a fight without a plan for that fight, or at least a pre-determined plan of how to approach fights. Heal yourself during and after fights, the healer is there to HELP heal everyone and not to save you medpac costs. Watch everyone's health and status and don't go running into a fight until they are ready as well. - TRASH MOBS: I like to hit them with Mortar Volley and at the same time have Jorgan use his Grenade. Mop up with Hammer Shot/Explosive Round. If they are more spread out or if Mortar is on cooldown I'll use Sticky Grenade/HIB and spam Hammer Shot/Explosive Round. If any run to me it's my up-close skills. Sometimes I'll Harpoon one in and Pulse Cannon them but this type of easy fighting is no big deal. - TOUGHER MOBS: If we are in a Heroic or the mob group includes one or more tougher types we'll usually CC one, Mortar or Sticky/HIB the trash mobs, Cyro the boss and kill him last. The tougher the mobs are the more I will go into full-on tank mode and run in, round em up and tank em. If there is a person along with CC skills this is a good place to use them. - BOSS FIGHTS: One way to fight a boss is to CC the boss, kill the trash and then kill the boss last. If the boss is CC immune, CC a trash, Vanguard tank the boss while DPS kills loose trash and then CC'd trash, then kill the boss. Typically you want to kill the trash first because you want to reduce the total amount of mob damage output as quickly as possible. A good group leader (preferably not you) will designate CC targets, DPS targets and tank targets (target marking and voice chat are your friends) and direct the fight. If you are in over your head, not geared up well, fighting over level, doing a Heroic 4 with 2 people, etc, sometimes you will simply not have enough DPS firepower in the group or staying power in you to be successful. BUT I see way too many people, tanks included, who whine and complain and lfg because they are afraid a fight is going to be too hard. You are tougher than you think, at least TRY a fight ferchrissake and find a way to win. OK at level 40 I’d add that on hard mobs, you want to 1) keep them close, 2) watch their debuffs closely and 3) keep the Smoke Grenade debuff and Static Field on them at all times during the fight if possible, and 4) keep Shock on them as well. AMMO: I have to mention ammo because a lot of folks talk about it. As described earlier, at range I spam Hammer Shot / Explosive Round and mix in other skills as needed. Up close I spam Hammer Shot / Ion Pulse plus other skills. So I use a lot of Hammer Shot in all situations and it helps keep me in ammo. I do knowingly run completely out sometimes when trying to burn down a mob quick, but then I have Recharge Cells (and can’t wait to also have Reserve Powercell). If that is on cooldown I may still feel the need to expend all my ammo during a fight, sometimes more than once. I see some peeps say to be very careful about always keeping your ammo at such and such a level, to me that is just not realistic. You can run dry, spam Hammer Shot by itself for a bit, and off you go. You are a TANK not the DPS person. Even when solo, you are not the DPS, your companion Jorgan is. I guess I would say you should never be caught by surprise with no ammo, but USE that ammo to do your job as a tank, don’t be shy about it. FIN: That’s my thinking and experience so far, flame and troll all you want. Playing a Vanguard in SWTOR is just killer and Bioware did a fantastic job of including all of the tanking mechanics as they should be, with some added flavor of the ability to tank (some) stuff at range. Can’t wait for 50. Edited January 25, 2012 by Chazcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesrik Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 TL;DR would be nice, especially since these are you thoughts at 40. Most classes change dramatically once you hit level 50 and get geared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhMaracle Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hi I really enjoyed reading this; My build is a bit different but I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind. 1 You have put 0 points into stock strike. Is there a reason for this. 2 Do you feel that armormech is better than biochem. I have a level 30 Vanguard putting points into shield tree. and I do use Dorn to heal me. Make me feel I can take on quite a bit. Do you find that by using Aric Your survivability goes down and with an increased downtime. Thanks for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maosef Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 A very enjoyable and educating read, thanks for taking the time to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chazcon Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) jhMaracle: Hi I really enjoyed reading this; My build is a bit different but I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind. 1 You have put 0 points into stock strike. Is there a reason for this. // I think there are better places to spend points, that increase my survivability. Increasing my DPS is not even on my radar really. And I don't use Stock Strike a lot compared to my other skills. You know, I use it when up close with a mob whenever it's off cooldown so I use it as much as I possibly can, it just doesn't seem to be that big a piece of my game in the grand scheme of things. 2 Do you feel that armormech is better than biochem. // Early on I thought I'd made a mistake going Armormech but now, I don't think so. I guess there's two schools of thought. The Biochem fan could argue that at end game after you have made your BIS set of armor you have no need of Armormech anymore, except to gear up friends, your companion, alts, or sell armor. But I enjoy making my own gear and being the guild medium & heavy armor guy so this is OK with me. I think I'll have plenty of cash to regularly buy my consumables like Medpacs, Stims and Adrenals from the GTN. I'm enjoying Armormech. I have a level 30 Vanguard putting points into shield tree. and I do use Dorn to heal me. Make me feel I can take on quite a bit. Do you find that by using Aric Your survivability goes down and with an increased downtime. // I honestly think my survivability is better with Jorgan. Dead mobs can't hurt you and with him everything dies faster. I have tried all my companions and with Dorn, I feel I really don't need the heals, I can survive alone just fine with self heals and what God and Bioware gave me She doesn't do any real DPS and she also can't take a hit. With Tanno or M1 the lower DPS makes fights take so much longer. No need for 2 tanks lol. Yuun doesn't do much of anything really lol he's an odd duck. Yep it's Jorgan for me, all the way, I try to keep him well geared up for max DPS, I can keep us both alive while he whacks 'em. Thanks for your reply. Edited January 26, 2012 by Chazcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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