DennisChia Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Seeing as I am waiting in a 50min queue (where's the mass exodus of players according to general consensus on the forums?), I've decided to throw in my two cents with regards to the controversial decision by BW to nerf Ops/Scoundrel. While I am not going to comment on whether the nerf is too harsh seeing as its too early to tell, I believe this is a step in the correct direction. In my opinion, the starting burst done by operatives are too excessive. How so? I am a level 50 shieldtech battlemaster, in full champion gear with exception of one battlemaster headpiece and 1 centurion implant (curses! not enough commendations!) and yet the starting burst of a similarly geared operative can remove up to 40% of my HP with a string of crits (probably) in roughly 8 seconds. While I agree in a 1v1 situation, the burst damage drops sharply after the initial opening and I usually am able to level the opponents and my hp in about 15-20 seconds in, this burst brings some hidden advantages to the Operative. In a warzone, especially in Huttball / Voidstar, the chances of a 1v1 situation are minimal. During a group fight from a dps standpoint, who will you target first? Yup, the person with the lowest HP. So in a 5v5 fight, we have the sorcerer and the operative opening up on 2 different opponents, the sorcerer is whittling down on his opponent while the operative just did a massive opening on the other. While overtime, the dps done is the same(assumption), the initial burst done by the operative will add this "Global Taunt" on his opponent. It is not ridiculous to assume that most of the people will switch to target the operative's opponent. The operative helps the group focus on a singular target and bring it down. I feel that reducing the initial burst by roughly 10-20% is a good amount to start and careful adjustments made after patch release is required. In conclusion, I agree with the nerf in initial burst but a few buffs in sustained damage done by the operative could be made down the road to bring its overall dps back in line after patch evaluation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godsofchaos Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I rather they improved the other classes instead of nerfing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valcutio Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 It's great to know that classes will be balanced for PvP... even when in PvE. Whenever enough ppl cry on the forums, expect your class to get nerfed. Don't worry, your time will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voidsurvivor Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 While I agree in a 1v1 situation, the burst damage drops sharply after the initial opening and I usually am able to level the opponents and my hp in about 15-20 seconds in, this burst brings some hidden advantages to the Operative. Even though, you live long enough to bring down their hp to your level, OP's initial burst is too high? You may want to rewrite that to better support your argument. It would help, if you mentioned how you were killed in one cd by a lowbie OP, who chain stunned you to death. You were also guarded at that time, in a premade, and had heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 What worries me about the nerf is how heavy-handed Bioware is being. What I hated in WoW was how Blizzard always seemed to bring a chainsaw to do the balancing when what was needed was a scalpel. Bioware seems to be doing the exact same thing. Instead of doing a few nerfs, one at a time, and looking at the results, they just do a huge triple-whammy. Which they might end up having to buff later, and then maybe nerf again. Also they're repeating most of Blizzard's early mistakes. Change to Dark Charge for Assassins, for example. The amount of healing isn't affected by your gear or your level, only the skill level. In other words, at 50 that healing stops scaling. And after 2-3 gear tiers get added, that heal will be absolutely meaningless. It'll have to be buffed, and made to scale instead of being static. Which is something that should have been done in the first place. It'll just take more work later, and it WILL need work, it's obvious. Overall, I'm not too happy. They seem to be repeating all the rookie mistakes with pathological zeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisChia Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Well let me rephrase that so you could better understand my argument. Initial burst high is not equivalent to high dps overall. Here's an example to help you understand.lets say,a sorcerer and an operative can kill me in 40 secs. A sorcerer does his damage over time, meaning to say, its a constant stream of damage however an operative does most of his damage initially and then tapers off. So he does the same damage as a sorcerer but with a high amount of this damage attributed to his initial burst. And my point is that this initial burst will actually contribute to me dying faster than the sorcerer's target because everyone will focus me due to my lower hp after the initial opening. Is it easier to understand now? Edited January 22, 2012 by DennisChia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisChia Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Instead of doing a few nerfs, one at a time, and looking at the results, they just do a huge triple-whammy. Which they might end up having to buff later, and then maybe nerf again. Yup, I guess its all part of a balancing process. They have to start somewhere, measure the impact, re-evaluate and buff/nerf again. Its hard to get it right the first time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelticfury Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 It's great to know that classes will be balanced for PvP... even when in PvE. Whenever enough ppl cry on the forums, expect your class to get nerfed. Don't worry, your time will come. The next big garnerer of forum QQ == Sorcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGrunt Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I disagree, Operatives don't need the nerf bat. And in my honest opinion here's why. Yes we do massive burst damage everyone knows that, but after the initial 3-4 hits, we're not doing nearly has much damage and the depending on how well a player knows his class keeps him alive. Operatives don't have very many stuns only 3 Hidden Strike (only if we sink talent points into it), Debilitate, and flash bang. And in PvP all of those stuns fill up resolve in 1 second easy. We can't stun lock unlike most classes and we only have 2 DoT's Corrosive Dart and Acid Blade. And the only "knock back" we have is Hidden Strike which is like 3 meters in front. Unlike all the other classes which knock you back 30m. Our only strong point is damage. Rather than complain about dying from Operatives and saying we need the nerf bat. Learn what your class can do and tactics that help in different scenarios. My only complaint is Commando/Merc healers with their uninterruptable shield. Heavy Armor+Heals+No Interruptions=God. That last 1 full minute while most everyone special ability (evasion for operatives) lasts 3 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelticfury Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) I disagree, Operatives don't need the nerf bat. And in my honest opinion here's why. words I am with you on that man. They fixed the stacking buffs, then decided to slap down additional nerfs with 0 testing, or very little testing, as seems to be how they roll. Not to mention the ability delay. How can you balance anything when abilities don't even fire on time. The dumbest nerf ever, or at least extremely untimely. I just hope they get a grip on the nerf hammer before they ruin this game. Edited January 22, 2012 by Kelticfury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokai Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I disagree, Operatives don't need the nerf bat. And in my honest opinion here's why. Yes we do massive burst damage everyone knows that, but after the initial 3-4 hits, we're not doing nearly has much damage and the depending on how well a player knows his class keeps him alive. Operatives don't have very many stuns only 3 Hidden Strike (only if we sink talent points into it), Debilitate, and flash bang. And in PvP all of those stuns fill up resolve in 1 second easy. We can't stun lock unlike most classes and we only have 2 DoT's Corrosive Dart and Acid Blade. And the only "knock back" we have is Hidden Strike which is like 3 meters in front. Unlike all the other classes which knock you back 30m. Our only strong point is damage. Rather than complain about dying from Operatives and saying we need the nerf bat. Learn what your class can do and tactics that help in different scenarios. My only complaint is Commando/Merc healers with their uninterruptable shield. Heavy Armor+Heals+No Interruptions=God. That last 1 full minute while most everyone special ability (evasion for operatives) lasts 3 seconds. interesting fact... no class outside of the op/scoundrel can stunlock why? we only get 1 stun...go look and do some research... only class i know of has multible CC(stuns) is the operative/scoundrel. Sorc CC's Overcharge: knock down/root(talented) this doesnt stop you from using ranged its only good vs melee and almost every melee has a counter gap closer. Whirl Wind: breaks on damage i hardly consider this a CC only lasts 5 seconds in addition i believe it heals the target. Electricute: 4 second stun Merc CC's Cryo nade: 4 second stun Aoe Knock back: knocks back and snares concussive missile: 5 second CC breaks on damage ect ect ect all ranged classes have same basic CC's what causes stunlock is actually multible classes hitting you with stuns back to back! example! i use electricute and stun you, then a merc nades you and stuns you this is whats causing stun locks! to my knowlege is NO class can truely stunlock! its MULTIBLE classes are causing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizwolf Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) An Old game called Asheron's Call had a saying... "We will never nerf any class but to balance out classes you may see buffs to others" That was like 13 years ago and still no one has learned the right thing to do. Edited January 22, 2012 by Bizwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisChia Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 I think that's a tad idealistic. Its far easier to nerf one class than to buff all other 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorto Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I still stand by the fact that ops/scounds are a useless. Good for nothing more than jumping someone in a 1v1 at a useless time. They dont change war zones at all they just stealth around praying for a straggler to appear and kick is *** they go back into stealth rinse and repeat. This in itself hurts there team more and benefits so leave the trash class alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torhent Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 There is nothing wrong with nerfing the abilities listed out for scoundrels, however people have to understand why they existed in the first place: -You have a stealth class that is extremely weak out in the open So the developers gave them front load of damage and a reusable CC (Shoot First + K.O), with the idea being they could kill quick and then restealth and then apply K.O. again. Whoever the game designer who came up with this, is not thinking properly from a PVP perspective. The new nerfs can stay however the following is going to happen about three months after the nerfs: 1st) Out of stealth damage for the Scoundrel is going to be increased OR 2nd) An ability to get the scoundrel out of combat will be added on 1 min or less timer OR Dissapearing Act talented will be cut down to 1 min Right now, with the new changes applied a scoundrel will have a 50% chance of winning a fight against any opponent as long as they are attacking from stealth. Now, put the scoundrel out of stealth and 1 on 1 you are going to see the scoundrel having a 30% - 40% chance of winning against any opponent assuming they talented for med pack, if not they will be lucky to have a 15% chance of winning out of stealth. Yes, a scrappers DPS out of stealth is fairly weak compared to other classes, just before launch Sucker Punch got a huge DPS nerf to weaken the classes DPS out of stealth. Either the damage out of stealth will need to be raised OR the scoundrel will need to be able to get back into stealth more often than once every 2 minutes. Personally if it was me the following changes would have been made: -K.0. stays at a 3 sec stun but it can only be used once every 1 or 2 minutes (You will need this to handle bubbled sorcs, because at 1 1/2 secs, scoundrels will be lucky to have a 40% kill rate on Sorcs, I normally would double tap shoot first bubbled Sorcs to kill them to handle the bubble because they will reapply that baby real quick and then you are dead) -20% nerf stays for Shoot First That right there would put the class balanced for damage, and it would deal with K.O. Having the ability to apply a CC instantaneously without a cool down, just having to be in stealth is overpowered and it should be on a timer for its reuse. Oh well, its fun to watch the designers try to fix the game, after a lot of problems bought up by beta testers is GEE CAUSING PROBLEMS IN RELEASE. Go figure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizwolf Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I think that's a tad idealistic. Its far easier to nerf one class than to buff all other 7 Uhh 7 others don't need buffs to get to Op's level. I don't even know why I type on these boards anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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