Why Rage spec for Marauder so inferior to Juggs?

[SeppoTheHated]

If you'll take a look at Jugg Rage spec at 5/4/32

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101fZhzZGrR0drMdGR.1

you can see clearly that juggs get 30% more smash power, free rage while being attacked, lower cd on saber throws,and no rage cost on force screams with their rage specs.

 

The trade off with marauders is if we take a similar Rage spec : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bZhMMzZGrR0drMdrR.1 we receive 10 rage when predation ends (something that happens significantly less often, no dmg increase for smash, a reduced cd on smash, and increased offhand dmg (i'm still hitting for approx 130 offhand with this mastery).

 

The jugg rage spec is capable of larger burst dmg, more range with easy rage generation and use of obliterate and saber throws. The marauder rage spec does less dmg and 3 second less on cd for smash.

[EasymodeX]

1. We know that Smash does 30/203 = 14.8% more damage for Juggs. This is not new.

2. We know that Juggs have other capabilities like Saber Throw, AOE taunt, Intervene.

3. We also know that Marauders have combat stealth. And 4% more damage reduction on ShiiCho. And Predation. And Predation. And a 1 Rage cost Smash. And Cloak of Pain, and Undying Rage, and Obfuscate.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Qishari
rude comments

[SeppoTheHated]

1. We know that Smash does 30/203 = 14.8% more damage for Juggs. This is not new.

 

2. We know that Juggs have other capabilities like Saber Throw, AOE taunt, Intervene.

3. We also know that Marauders have combat stealth. And 4% more damage reduction on ShiiCho. And Predation. And Predation. And a 1 Rage cost Smash. And Cloak of Pain, and Undying Rage, and Obfuscate.

 

so what you're saying is we sacrifice mobility and range for dmg reduction and an ability that goes off twice a match if you are lucky?

 

Also, not all of us know.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Qishari
quoted rude comments

[EasymodeX]

so what you're saying is we sacrifice mobility and range for dmg reduction and an ability that goes off twice a match if you are lucky?

 

1. Juggernauts barely have more mobility, from intercede.

2. Saber Throw isn't much damage. It does not qualify as a significant ranged capability.

3. Marauders don't just get "damage reduction". Marauders get damage reduction, and more damage reduction, and more damage reduction.

4. Predation.

 

 

Also, not all of us know.

 

Which is why it behooves you to skim through the other 10 threads that discuss the Rage spec. Don't worry if you don't find something very specific that you may be looking for. Based on your posts, you have a lot to learn so a large portion of the information should be relevant for you.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Qishari
rude comments

[SeppoTheHated]

I'm sorry, which posts were those... the 3 that were submitted in this thread that i've recorded ever? also, which posts were you referring to that have been submitted previously about the differences in jugg v marauder thread. Maybe you could link it, because it sure isn't avail in the first 4 pages of the marauder forum.

[ThisGuyThat]

Which is why it behooves you to skim through the other 10 threads that discuss the Rage spec. Don't worry if you don't find something very specific that you may be looking for. Based on your posts, you have a lot to learn so a large portion of the information should be relevant for you.

 

Haha, don't be so arrogant. First of all your claims of enormous damage reduction are on 2 minutes and 1.5 minute cooldowns respectively (and while they can be reduced (and are in the rage tree)) this nevertheless gives our large damage reducing abilities heavy cooldowns, particularly because while undying rage can be moved to a 45 second cooldown with gear and rage talents, undying rage in the rage tree is a 5 second gimmick: when it ends you either cloak away and run or have whatever tiny amount of health you have left to fight with, half what you had 5 seconds ago.

 

On topic, jugg tree is stronger in rage and the reason why is, presumably, that the marauder tree has a better damage output between smash combos, which can be important once you blow force choke and force crush.

 

Easymodexxx, remember it's a forum and thus all topics following the code of conduct are allowed. He's free to repeat topics so long as he does so infrequently and not with the intention to troll. Regulate your own responses to meet with the code of conduct, please.

[EasymodeX]

Haha, don't be so arrogant. First of all your claims of enormous damage reduction are on 2 minutes and 1.5 minute cooldowns respectively (and while they can be reduced (and are in the rage tree)) this nevertheless gives our large damage reducing abilities heavy cooldowns,

 

60s, 60s, 45/60s, 180s, 45s.

 

Five different common cooldowns.

 

We don't even have a "2 minute" cooldown. Do you even play a Marauder?

 

However, pertaining to the topic at hand: we have 5 defensive cooldowns, 4 of which are on 60s or lower cooldowns.

 

How many does the Juggernaut have?

 

Yeah, that's right.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Meluna
insult

[ThisGuyThat]

You can use whatever method you prefer so long as it follows the rules, and trolling those whom you consider to be "retardQQ" posters does not seem to follow the rules, particularly as you consider everyone a "retardQQ"er. I didn't read anything in the OP that sounded like crying: he's complaining and there's nothing wrong with that (maybe a little bit whiney, but if you went marauder for damage and find juggs have more burst, who wouldn't be?).

 

Also, these defensive cooldowns you're talking about using are now stretching to our accuracy reduction abilities and others. While these are defensive in nature they are single-target and thus not even applicable in the same way as Saber Ward at all (I said 2 minutes but you're right, it was 3).

 

Also, perhaps you could have put more effort into making this thread useful for the newbs reading while it's on the first four pages, rather than spouting a couple lines of actual worthwhile input then 10 lines of insults and crap.

[EasymodeX]

particularly as you consider everyone a "retardQQ"er.

 

Only 80% of this forum or so is spam QQ.

 

The overriding issue is that most of that complaining isn't even correctly associated with the realm problems. It's a bunch of babies crying about whatever they can because they don't have the mental capabilities to narrow down and identify the real problems with Marauder gameplay.

 

 

I didn't read anything in the OP that sounded like crying: he's complaining and there's nothing wrong with that (maybe a little bit whiney, but if you went marauder for damage and find juggs have more burst, who wouldn't be?).

 

Actually, it was mostly crying. Not only did he neglect to compare the damage for the other 85% of Rage spec capabilities, he ventured quite deep into utility and other facets (while simultaneously ignoring the laundry list of Marauder advantages).

 

E.g., rampant whining.

 

 

Also, these defensive cooldowns you're talking about using are now stretching to our accuracy reduction abilities and others. While these are defensive in nature they are single-target and thus not even applicable in the same way as Saber Ward at all (I said 2 minutes but you're right, it was 3).

 

1. They are not "now" including those abilities. I mentioned Obfuscate in my previous post.

 

2. Obfuscate is the only single target defensive cooldown on the list. Cloak, Camo, Undying all pertain in the exact same way as Saber Ward (EXCEPT THE PART WHERE JUGGS DON'T GET THOSE).

 

 

Also, perhaps you could have put more effort into making this thread useful for the newbs reading while it's on the first four pages, rather than spouting a couple lines of actual worthwhile input then 10 lines of insults and crap.

 

Actually, I provided 4 lines of information and 1 line of insult in my first post. L2c.

[SeppoTheHated]

sigh, now that you have completely hijacked this thread...

 

i wasn't aware that pointing out observations between advanced class shared trees was whining. I spoke objectively, and you associated it with whining. If you'll go back and look through the original posting, you'll see I am only referencing the things that are unique in each rage tree...identifying the differences between marauder and jugg.

 

In attempts to return to useful discussion, I will propose the following questions.

 

1. Is the reduced cd of smash (3 seconds) better or worse than the 30% additional damage dps-wise than Juggs. Math would suggest that if all targets were stacked equal, a 25% reduction in time isn't as good as a 30% additional damage. Does anyone have any experience to suggest otherwise?

 

2. Is 10 rage generation generated by ending predation as good as 1 rage generation per hit ? Differences marauder v jugg.

 

3. Does lower cd on ranged ability and gap closers seem better or worse than the potential damage gain on offhands?

[EasymodeX]

i wasn't aware that pointing out observations between advanced class shared trees was whining. I spoke objectively, and you associated it with whining. If you'll go back and look through the original posting, you'll see I am only referencing the things that are unique in each rage tree...identifying the differences between marauder and jugg.

 

1. Your "observations" were significantly skewed.

 

2. You referenced things unique to the Juggernaut Rage spec and skipped most of the unique aspects of the Marauder Rage spec.

 

 

1. Is the reduced cd of smash (3 seconds) better or worse than the 30% additional damage dps-wise than Juggs. Math would suggest that if all targets were stacked equal, a 25% reduction in time isn't as good as a 30% additional damage. Does anyone have any experience to suggest otherwise?

 

This is a more interesting question. Kudos.

 

For a PvE rotation, the -3s Smash is better because for PvE you typically want to split the Smash buffs from Force Crush into 2 Smashes. Crush gives 5 stacks; you cap at 4. So you want to use Smash in the middle of Crush, when it is at 3-4 stacks.

 

This means you have to use Smash often.

 

For a 1-shot hit, the Jugg Smash will hit harder.

 

 

2. Is 10 rage generation generated by ending predation as good as 1 rage generation per hit ? Differences marauder v jugg.

 

You are mis-reading the talent, and it is currently "SORT OF WORKING AS INTENDED". You generated 10 Fury per player affected by Predation. This means you can have permanent Predation as long as your Pred hits 2 other players besides you.

 

This leads me to believe you are theorycrafting off of torhead without actually playing the class, since it is quite rare for a Marauder to mix up Fury and Rage once you play one past level 11.

 

 

3. Does lower cd on ranged ability and gap closers seem better or worse than the potential damage gain on offhands?

 

Neither; they're different. Also, you probably want to generally compare the offhand procs for Marauders with the armor debuff for Juggs.

 

Saber Throw is distinctly different and not really comparable to anything a Marauder can do. The mobility from intercede is decent, but compares against Predation, Camo, et al.

 

 

I've said it before but I'll say it again: the Juggernaut's overall advantage is the group utility support from taunt, AOE taunt, spammable AOE snare. The Marauder's advantage is the obscene personal defense. There are several differences between the two Rage specs, but that's what it boils down to.

 

For general solo queue / pug purposes, a Marauder Rage spec is much better than a Jugg's. You will net significantly more damage/kills because it's much harder to actually die.

 

Then again Juggs can lolForcePushlol, which some people seem to have a hangup over.

[Rampagingike]

1. Is the reduced cd of smash (3 seconds) better or worse than the 30% additional damage dps-wise than Juggs. Math would suggest that if all targets were stacked equal, a 25% reduction in time isn't as good as a 30% additional damage. Does anyone have any experience to suggest otherwise?

 

2. Is 10 rage generation generated by ending predation as good as 1 rage generation per hit ? Differences marauder v jugg.

 

3. Does lower cd on ranged ability and gap closers seem better or worse than the potential damage gain on offhands?

 

1. 9s CD 1 rage smash is pretty boss. Even though in comparable gear a Marauder hits for 6k and a jug hits for 7.8k. I only spent 1 rage and can do it again sooner as well as have more rage to use as a please after words. Options!

 

2. 10 rage return on predation is always better than 1 rage on hit. What happens if you cant hit them? At least you are returned to 1/3 Fury which can easily stack to 3/3 if you are taking damage and using abilities.

 

3. Who the hell gets off-hand damage increase talents in PVP? If this is a question in your mind you need to learn than PVP is about control, burst and survival. Not min maxing DPS. Pick up Cl o C and MAXIMUM 1 point in that talent if you want the 2nd tier Carnage talents.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bZRMbZGMRbdrMdGR.1

 

Try it out. I am playing around with Unbreakable Rage because I find it very rare I get a full ravage off on anybody other than another melee. I end up using VS spam more in between cooldowns.

[TheCasT]

marauders also get battering assault which is awesome rage generation. With all our dps abilities we need as much rage as we can get. Gotta pop off those force screams and VS while crush and choke are on cool down and also while crush is ticking need rage to do that.

[AGoldCrayon]

If you'll take a look at Jugg Rage spec at 5/4/32

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101fZhzZGrR0drMdGR.1

you can see clearly that juggs get 30% more smash power, free rage while being attacked, lower cd on saber throws,and no rage cost on force screams with their rage specs.

 

The trade off with marauders is if we take a similar Rage spec : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bZhMMzZGrR0drMdrR.1 we receive 10 rage when predation ends (something that happens significantly less often, no dmg increase for smash, a reduced cd on smash, and increased offhand dmg (i'm still hitting for approx 130 offhand with this mastery).

 

The jugg rage spec is capable of larger burst dmg, more range with easy rage generation and use of obliterate and saber throws. The marauder rage spec does less dmg and 3 second less on cd for smash.

 

Not sure why you wouldn't go 3/3 on Dark Resonance....

 

 

 

 

 

1. 9s CD 1 rage smash is pretty boss. Even though in comparable gear a Marauder hits for 6k and a jug hits for 7.8k. I only spent 1 rage and can do it again sooner as well as have more rage to use as a please after words. Options!

 

2. 10 rage return on predation is always better than 1 rage on hit. What happens if you cant hit them? At least you are returned to 1/3 Fury which can easily stack to 3/3 if you are taking damage and using abilities.

 

3. Who the hell gets off-hand damage increase talents in PVP? If this is a question in your mind you need to learn than PVP is about control, burst and survival. Not min maxing DPS. Pick up Cl o C and MAXIMUM 1 point in that talent if you want the 2nd tier Carnage talents.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bZRMbZGMRbdrMdGR.1

 

Try it out. I am playing around with Unbreakable Rage because I find it very rare I get a full ravage off on anybody other than another melee. I end up using VS spam more in between cooldowns.

 

No Defensive Roll, Payback or Brutality? You gave up two great survial talents, and if you're spamming VS, why not actually get a talent that makes it good?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bZhMMZRrMrkrMdGR.1

 

Prefer this personally. Have no issues with rage generation so I skipped CoC, and the offhand talent is useful for Obliterate, so I kept it because it gets me DR. Find myself using VS more than scream as a rage dump, so didn't bother getting the 1 less rage talent.

 

edit: Only went 1/3 on Malice because let's face it, 4% crit is easy to make up through gear (though I suppose you could drop strangulate all together and pick up another 2%), and I'd much rather have an extra 11% crit chance on VS than 4% crit chance for everything, considering smashes should be critting every time regardless and that's what the build revolves around.

Edited January 19, 2012 by AGoldCrayon