Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[VanorDM]

How about instead of fighting one another over being able to change advanced classes we blame Bioware for what this truly was: lazyness.

 

I really start to wonder if people actually know what the term lazy even means.

 

They could of quite easily added in 8 more class story lines, it wouldn't of been that much more work for bioware.

 

It would of however taken a lot more time and money to get done. So to do so would of mean pushing the game out another 3-5 months just for the sake of more VO work. It's not a matte of lazy, it's a matter of the best use of the available resources.

[HKFortyEight]

How about instead of fighting one another over being able to change advanced classes we blame Bioware for what this truly was: lazyness. Rather than craft 16 unique storylines for each "class," they basically said "Oh you know what, we really don't feel like coming up with 16 different stories, so let's just make four classes and have each one separate into two advanced classes to save on time and money at the expense of customer satisfaction."

 

Personally, I don't support the ability to change your advanced class. However, having already experienced a class' storyline, I really don't want to go through the same story just to experience a new play style.

 

Just to say if you want to try a new play style play the mirror of the class ex. Have a Sith Marauder then roll a Jedi Guardian and another thing for all we know Bioware could be planning of branching the story based on class in a future expansion.

[Ookami]

I really start to wonder if people actually know what the term lazy even means.

 

They could of quite easily added in 8 more class story lines, it wouldn't of been that much more work for bioware.

 

It would of however taken a lot more time and money to get done. So to do so would of mean pushing the game out another 3-5 months just for the sake of more VO work. It's not a matte of lazy, it's a matter of the best use of the available resources.

 

Agreed. I definitely don't put BW anywhere near the whole "Lazy" issue, I think they did great with what they had time wise. I personally would have loved to see them push the release back to this summer to be able to add a lot more stuff (i.e. 8 total different story lines), keep stuff in they took out for whatever reason, etc. I was in beta since March last year, I saw a lot of things I liked removed, maybe they will reappear later down the line, I don't know. Unfortunately for whatever reason they decided to push the release date forward, whether it was a BW's idea, or EA wanted it out the door before WoW and 4.3, I don't know. It's here-nor-there anymore, but I don't believe BW to be lazy.

 

On another note, more on topic.

 

After reading a few of the past bunch of posts, I'm thinking that maybe we Pro-AC-Switching people need to come to some agreement on what we are looking for in this option. I see to many people against the idea posting such things as "You'll be able to change your AC any time you want" and "Your guild will be able to force you to switch", etc. I'm wondering if this thread has been going on for soooo long that people have lost sight of what we originally wanted and made it out to be worse that it should be. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As I posted a few days ago, personally I'm not looking for the ability to switch every week or on a whim. I'm only looking for a chance to view the other side of the fence and decide if I like it better and if not then hop back over. This means, in my view of this option, the ability to switch twice anytime between when you pick your AC to say 40 (compromises can be made, this is just a number I pulled from the top of my head). The first time to test the waters of the other AC, the second to swap back if you end up not liking the other green field. If you swap and end up liking the new pasture, good for you, if not you have a fall back. After the second switch that's it, no more... recreate your character, you had your chance. As for "punishment" I don't see why it couldn't be a monetary transaction for each swap (NOT real cash please), though I don't know what the amount would be. I was able to respec my Trooper yesterday and it cost me nothing, this I do think should set you back a decent amount though.

 

Anyone else Pro-AC-Switch want to help clarify, I think it'll help get our point across a little better instead of no one knowing what the other side really wants and what they are willing to compromise to get it. Making assumptions helps no one and gets us no where.

 

Yay? Nay? Please shut up and never talk on these forums again; you don't know what you're talking about? Noooooooooooo!!!

 

Thanks all.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ookami

[aznthecapn]

As I posted a few days ago, personally I'm not looking for the ability to switch every week or on a whim. I'm only looking for a chance to view the other side of the fence and decide if I like it better and if not then hop back over. This means, in my view of this option, the ability to switch twice anytime between when you pick your AC to say 40 (compromises can be made, this is just a number I pulled from the top of my head). The first time to test the waters of the other AC, the second to swap back if you end up not liking the other green field. If you swap and end up liking the new pasture, good for you, if not you have a fall back. After the second switch that's it, no more... recreate your character, you had your chance.

 

I'm anti-AC swapping but this is a compromise I'd be happy with.

[HKFortyEight]

Agreed. I definitely don't put BW anywhere near the whole "Lazy" issue, I think they did great with what they had time wise. I personally would have loved to see them push the release back to this summer to be able to add a lot more stuff (i.e. 8 total different story lines), keep stuff in they took out for whatever reason, etc. I was in beta since March last year, I saw a lot of things I liked removed, maybe they will reappear later down the line, I don't know. Unfortunately for whatever reason they decided to push the release date forward, whether it was a BW's idea, or EA wanted it out the door before WoW and 4.3, I don't know. It's here-nor-there anymore, but I don't believe BW to be lazy.

 

On another note, more on topic.

 

After reading a few of the past bunch of posts, I'm thinking that maybe we Pro-AC-Switching people need to come to some agreement on what we are looking for in this option. I see to many people against the idea posting such things as "You'll be able to change your AC any time you want" and "Your guild will be able to force you to switch", etc. I'm wondering if this thread has been going on for soooo long that people have lost sight of what we originally wanted and made it out to be worse that it should be. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As I posted a few days ago, personally I'm not looking for the ability to switch every week or on a whim. I'm only looking for a chance to view the other side of the fence and decide if I like it better and if not then hop back over. This means, in my view of this option, the ability to switch twice anytime between when you pick your AC to say 40 (compromises can be made, this is just a number I pulled from the top of my head). The first time to test the waters of the other AC, the second to swap back if you end up not liking the other green field. If you swap and end up liking the new pasture, good for you, if not you have a fall back. After the second switch that's it, no more... recreate your character, you had your chance. As for "punishment" I don't see why it couldn't be a monetary transaction for each swap (NOT real cash please), though I don't know what the amount would be. I was able to respec my Trooper yesterday and it cost me nothing, this I do think should set you back a decent amount though.

 

Anyone else Pro-AC-Switch want to help clarify, I think it'll help get our point across a little better instead of no one knowing what the other side really wants and what they are willing to compromise to get it. Making assumptions helps no one and gets us no where.

 

Yay? Nay? Please shut up and never talk on these forums again; you don't know what you're talking about? Noooooooooooo!!!

 

Thanks all.

 

Now see you are being reasonable if there was a compromise this should be it you get to try both classes to see which one you want don't like switch back if you do stay no more than two though. A smart idea unlike the infinate class switching that some other people want.

 

I have to commend you for seeing both sides fairly and trying to come up with an idea to please both.

[MajikMyst]

I'm anti-AC swapping but this is a compromise I'd be happy with.

 

The only problem is.. If they give in on that and allow it.. We will be flooded with threads demanding more and why those limits and not others??

 

I vote no to AC switching under any circumstances.. They can reroll and spend a little over 2 hours leveling a new chracter to 10 to try the other AC.. It isn't going to kill them to play another character to 10 to try another AC..

 

Give them an inch and they will take a mile.. After all, this conversation of AC switching started in the Beta when they said they might add dual speccing.. The very next day AC threads started appearing..

 

No.. Sorry.. No compromise here.. No AC switching.. Ever..

 

The only compromise I would ever consider is that your AC is selected during character creation.. At which case the conversation becomes a moot issue.. The only way to change your AC is create a new character..

Edited February 10, 2012 by MajikMyst

[HKFortyEight]

The only problem is.. If they give in on that and allow it.. We will be flooded with threads demanding more and why those limits and not others??

 

I vote no to AC switching under any circumstances.. They can reroll and spend a little over 2 hours leveling a new chracter to 10 to try the other AC..

 

Give them an inch and they will take a mile.. After all, this conversation of AC switching started in the Beta when they said they might add dual speccing.. The very next day AC threads started appearing..

 

No.. Sorry.. No compromise here.. No AC switching.. Ever..

 

Eh I got to agree with this too I get the feeling that would happen but as I said I have to commend the other poster for trying to find something to make everyone happy.

[Darth_Nox]

This change won't happen until they start seeing a decline in usership and the current dev team sway that is doing things that have a lower player appeal get pushed back and more player-friendly design options come forward.

 

Sadly, few MMOs seem to realize the harm they do until the decline starts, and that's hard to reverse

 

The hard line on character customization, the linearity of advancement, the locked down character appearances, lack of breadth of advancement in the trees, penalties for diversity in builds etc.

 

It's one turn-off after another, and unfortunately that design ideal is in sway. Not until external pressure forces a change are we going to see any momentum.

 

The char advancement design is extremely limited - each class really only has 2 stats.. their power and health, and are determined by the base class. Each build really only benefits from going deep in one branch of the tree, and many of the branches are stance-locked, which further limits any complexity.

 

Appearances are locked to faction, weapons are limited to one type per class and there are no costume options other than to make custom armor which is only common for light armor, and challenging to maintain in any case.

 

There are no dye options, or even the ability to change a character's hair style post creation.

 

Combine this with an endgame that is not really in any way innovative, and we have only the storyline that puts this title ahead of others. Considering that is somewhat compromized by the numerous light/dark side equipment requirements, even that is out the window if the player has min/max concerns.

 

So, yes. There are some fundamental issues that need a gentle redress.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Darth_Nox

[Ookami]

Now see you are being reasonable if there was a compromise this should be it you get to try both classes to see which one you want don't like switch back if you do stay no more than two though. A smart idea unlike the infinate class switching that some other people want.

 

I have to commend you for seeing both sides fairly and trying to come up with an idea to please both.

 

Well to be honest, I think in my mind I've always been reasonable, unfortunately (speaking for myself only) I never really explained what I was looking for. I saw in my mind's eye what I wanted and thought the way I was presenting it to others they would see it exactly that way as well, not taking in to account that might not be the case. As I said, I think we all started explaining things, people started assuming because the idea was not present correctly, and the chaos started building to the point where no one really understood how the other side wanted things laid out. I'm as much at fault as anyone else, and I'm still trying to wrap my brain around why it took 96 pages for me to see what might be going on. I think people just need to step back, take a breath, and better explain what they are looking for, then come to a compromise. I've said what I'm looking for, I think other's should say their piece too and build from there.

 

Unfortunately you're never going to please everyone, but at least this way everything is a lot clearer and less muddled.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ookami

[MajikMyst]

Eh I got to agree with this too I get the feeling that would happen but as I said I have to commend the other poster for trying to find something to make everyone happy.

 

I can agree with that.. I can't fault anyone for at least trying to make eveyone happy..

[MajikMyst]

This change won't happen until they start seeing a decline in usership and the current dev team sway that is doing things that have a lower player appeal get pushed back and more player-friendly design options come forward.

 

Sadly, few MMOs seem to realize the harm they do until the decline starts, and that's hard to reverse.

 

So then to use your logic?? Is it fair to say that WOW's current decline has been contributed by their allowing of dual speccing??

 

Most people by a large margin do not want AC speccing to be allowed.. Feel free to go through this thread if you wish..

 

You also have to be able to attribute something to the MMO's decline.. AC switching will have no sizeable impact on subscriptions unless they allow it.. Time and time again, game makers are listening to all the wrong people.. They are listening to magazine writers who actually know nothing about the games they right about as they have no time to actually play them.. Even these forums are a bad resource because a very small percentage of the people that play this game actually use the forums.. I guess you could get a basic idea.. But most people will just quietly leave without an exit post..

 

No to AC switching under any and all circumstances..

[Emeda]

Hmm...maybe, between 10-20, you can switch between the AC's and find which one you like, and when you finally get to 20, you have to permanently decide, sounds fair. I've fallen victim to picking the wrong AC (picking scoundrel, only to find out he can't solo for his life)

 

They do that then we will again have posts wanting it to be up to level 30 then 40 and then since they have changed it so many times 50.

 

Give an inch and they will take a mile. Hold your ground and they wont take anything.

[Lexerus_Colt]

I agree with OP. To re-roll a Bountyhunter, its the same story either way you slice it. The big difference is, wether or not you're useable in the community. If you want to try a new story, re-roll the mirror on the other faction.

[aznthecapn]

I agree with OP. To re-roll a Bountyhunter, its the same story either way you slice it.

 

80% of the game is the same story for everyone.

 

Story similarity is not a viable reason to justify AC changing.

[Darth_Nox]

Limiting player options arbitrarily will never increase retention. It only increases monotony.

 

The objections to this are always rooted in control behaviour, which is never a healthy basis for decisions. Not wanting someone else to do something, without clear justification other than the intense desire to prevent them from doing it is compulsive anal retention. Common, and many of the vocal people in this distorted example exhibit those traits in abundance.

 

As always, a rich player experience stems from having options. Something that this game at the present time is adverse to, and which will not change until the financial impact of failing to compete with alternate entertainment options is material.

 

It's generally a lesson learned too late, and I don't see this being any different. If anything the immense expectation of appeal of the subject matter will lead to greater hubris rather than inspiring more humility from designers.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Darth_Nox

[aznthecapn]

Limiting player options arbitrarily will never increase retention. It only increases monotony.

 

No one is limiting player options. Choosing a Gunslinger does not prohibit you from playing a Scoundrel.

 

Not wanting someone else to do something, without clear justification other than the intense desire to prevent them from doing it is compulsive anal retention.

 

You need to read the whole thread because there are many reasons that aren't even remotely tied to "not wanting someone else to do something". There have been many excellent reasons presented. I will not repeat them since they lie in previous pages waiting for you to discover them.

 

As always, a rich player experience stems from having options. Something that this game at the present time is adverse to, and which will not change until the financial impact of failing to compete with alternate entertainment options is material.

 

There are some options that could be capitalized upon without allowing people to change their class. The vast majority of games in this genre have seen great success despite not allowing this. I'll point to the most successful as a prime example.

[Amyas]

This needs to happen! I do not want to play though the same class just to try what should be another spec!

[JTShadow]

Just because the two advanced classes follow the same storyline does not make them as similar as you may think. This option defintely should not be allow in the game. We don't need people who have leveled up through a tank/dps tree to all of a sudden switch and become heal/dps just because they want to, or because they didn't like their old one. If they want a different class, they should play a different class.

 

If you could respec your advanced class, there would be no point to advanced classes in the first place. You would have to remove them completely. Moreover some advanced classes use different weapon or armor types, thus switching advanced classes requires completely new sets of armor/weapons.

 

If I'm a juggernaut and I spec tank, if I decide to switch to DPS, I could still effectively use my tanking gear. I could remod oranges with gear that favored strength over endurance. If I were to switch to one of the marauder dps specs instead I now would have to get all new armor since I wouldn't be allowed to wear heavy, I would need a second lightsaber, I would lose all juggernaut specific abilities and have brand new marauder abilities I've never used before, it is nearly a completely different play experience except for some of the attacks overlapping.

 

If you want to play something different, roll a different character. It's as simple as that.

[Amyas]

80% of the game is the same story for everyone.

 

Story similarity is not a viable reason to justify AC changing.

 

For a game thats main thing is the epic class story?

[Amyas]

Its the same class dif spec!

 

Advanced class's are poop!

[Darth_Nox]

The blunt truth is that eliminating options like this puts the game that much further behind the competition of more advanced titles such as rift. Noone competes for long by not trying as hard.

[aznthecapn]

This needs to happen! I do not want to play though the same class just to try what should be another spec!

 

Then don't. No one will make you. If you want a different storyline, play the mirror AC on the opposite faction. These are very different classes in a number of ways already outlined in this thread. Its not "another spec".

 

 

Its the same class dif spec!

 

Advanced class's are poop!

 

No, it isn't.

 

Whether or not they should have been available at level 1 as a class vs at level 10 as an advanced class is an argument for another thread. As it stands, the classes are different - very different in half the cases.

 

The blunt truth is that eliminating options like this puts the game that much further behind the competition of more advanced titles such as rift. Noone competes for long by not trying as hard.

 

Rift is an exception to the rule. Using an MMO that is clearly struggling on the open market is not a wise comparison, especially when its the only one that allows this in an ocean of MMOs that don't.

 

There is no elimination of options. Repeating yourself doesn't make it true - it makes you that much more wrong. You are welcome to roll the mirror AC to the one you have on the same faction or a new one. Write a story of twin brothers, separated at birth, on raised Republic, one raised Empire. One is a Gunslinger the other an Operative. It'll be fun and original.

Edited February 10, 2012 by aznthecapn

[Kenmuir]

I would welcome the idea of being able to respec my Advanced Class. IMO that would definitely separate this game from the others on the market by giving players more options.

 

Points of disagreement:

 

1. Only permanent choices have importance.

 

I just have to disagree with this idea. Partly because "permanent" is ill-defined and because it just isn't true. IMO the important choices/things in an MMORPG are the people you choose to play with, and did you have fun? Also, if the choice of AC is very important to you, simply choice not to respec. Why are you basing your enjoyment of the game on how others play? To me, this might be one of the most selfish arguments on the entire board, because you are basing the argument on how it affects other people instead of how it affects yourself.

 

2. "Every other game did it this way, SWTOR must too"

 

I don't like this argument either. To argue that nothing should change because nothing has been changed is a null argument. Whatever limitations(yes, forcing someone to reroll to try a different archetype is a limitation for this generation of MMORPG players) other games have, shouldn't be forced onto this game unless they have sufficient merit in themselves. The fact that other games have this "feature" is not, in my mind, a sufficient reason not to include AC respec.

 

 

In conclusion I think that AC respec would be a fun and new feature that could allow Bioware to take advantage of their game design, i.e. there are 4 "classes" and 2 "sub-classes" for each class, to really try something new. I think that having more options and less tedious game play (saying people are lazy for not wanting to do certain parts of the game, for example leveling a dps character, is a non-argument) is more fun and that should be what Bioware bases their choice on.

[HKFortyEight]

The main question is why? Why do you want to change your class? Most reasoning behind people with changing classes is 'Because I want to'.

 

If you want to try a different play style do that just roll the other side if you want.

 

If you don't like the play style of the class you choose re-roll it should only take you till about lvl 15 maybe 20 at the latest to figure out you don't like the playstyle if at lvl 50 you're complaining as I said before the problem is with you not the game.

[Darth_Nox]

The main question is why? Why do you want to change your class? Most reasoning behind people with changing classes is 'Because I want to'.

 

If you want to try a different play style do that just roll the other side if you want.

 

If you don't like the play style of the class you choose re-roll it should only take you till about lvl 15 maybe 20 at the latest to figure out you don't like the playstyle if at lvl 50 you're complaining as I said before the problem is with you not the game.

 

No, the real question is 'why not'? With something so easy to provide, why would you not permit it?

 

The only answers are not good ones, and lead to limiting player latitude which reduces possible avenues for refreshing interest which ultimately affects playerbase retention.