MMO's (In general) biggest flaw...(Tank, healer, DPS)

[KSheriff]

I dunno, I rolled a Imp Sniper, and I regret not going Operative. Every character I create from now on will be either a tank or healer.

 

At least for me, your argument rings false, as I find DPS quite boring and lacking in utility.

 

There are feats that a tank/healer can do solo that a pure DPS could never attempt. Aside from that, I pretty much never have a problem getting a group.

[BloatedGuppy]

First of all, again, I wasn't trying to be insulting or say that there's anything wrong with the type of player who doesn't like the trinity. Not once did I say there's a problem with this play style. People can play anyway they want.

 

I'm just pointing out that GW2 doesn't appeal to every type of player.

 

A lot of people flying the GW2 flag, and I'm not saying ALL, or even you, seem to believe that NO ONE likes the trinity. They seem to believe "everyone just wants to be DPS anyway".

 

I'm just explaining that there are different mindsets in different players and some of us like the highly structured team play of the trinity and many don't.

 

Those who don't often express their dislike of relying on others to get content done.

 

I'm just trying to deflate the idea that everyone hates the trinity.

Given my druthers, I prefer to heal. I still hate the trinity. It's lazy, archaic game design.

[Drewser]

It's less of a positive when only one class/spec can do it, and do it about 800% more efficiently than anyone else.

 

People who scoff at poor balancing in most modern MMOs did not play CoH at launch.

 

Not sure how many classes you played but there were plenty that shined solo.

 

A fire/rad controller was pretty unstoppable post 32 when they got their pets.

[Nightrode]

Dec 2011 -- makes sense

[BloatedGuppy]

Not sure how many classes you played but there were plenty that shined solo.

 

A fire/rad controller was pretty unstoppable post 32 when they got their pets.

 

Fire/Rad was the only feasible Controller combo. Grav/Grav was God's punishment for an evil world. You could go on vacation for a week, come home, and still be killing the same mob. Defenders were rubbish. Scrappers were wildly inferior to Blasters in almost every respect. And Fire Tankers were tiny gods.

 

I enjoyed the game, but the balancing was atrocious. Needless to say, though, we are getting off topic.

[Yfelsung]

Given my druthers, I prefer to heal. I still hate the trinity. It's lazy, archaic game design.

 

The trinity could use work, I'd actually prefer a more complex system myself, but I don't think the answer is GW2's "throw it out the window and design fights like an action game" methodology.

 

I watched the video for some swamp/undead dragon fight in GW2, it looked like playing Darksiders on low difficulty with multiple people.

 

Some may like that, it just doesn't appeal to me due to my love of highly structured systems.

[Nightrode]

And of course another GW2 fanboy

[Viera]

Every MMO that claims to break TEH TRINITY fails so hard.

 

Every MMO that claims to be TOTALLY OPEN WORLD fails as well.

 

Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia.

[BloatedGuppy]

The trinity could use work, I'd actually prefer a more complex system myself, but I don't think the answer is GW2's "throw it out the window and design fights like an action game" methodology.

 

I watched the video for some swamp/undead dragon fight in GW2, it looked like playing Darksiders on low difficulty with multiple people.

 

Some may like that, it just doesn't appeal to me due to my love of highly structured systems.

 

There's absolutely nothing to say that breaking down the trinity necessarily needs to lead to shallow or uninspired gameplay. I like well designed systems too, but the trinity has become a crutch. When I read one of the first interviews Bioware gave regarding TOR, and they announced that Jedi could tank by "using the Force to form a shield" I wanted to throw up. There are a lot of crazy innovative games being made out there. I'm sure we could have a game that promoted teamwork/systems play while at the same time allowing players to remain self sufficient, rather than the same three cogs of an interlocking wheel.

 

We'll see how TSW and GW2 handle it and go from there.

[Yfelsung]

There's absolutely nothing to say that breaking down the trinity necessarily needs to lead to shallow or uninspired gameplay. I like well designed systems too, but the trinity has become a crutch. When I read one of the first interviews Bioware gave regarding TOR, and they announced that Jedi could tank by "using the Force to form a shield" I wanted to throw up. There are a lot of crazy innovative games being made out there. I'm sure we could have a game that promoted teamwork/systems play while at the same time allowing players to remain self sufficient, rather than the same three cogs of an interlocking wheel.

 

We'll see how TSW and GW2 handle it and go from there.

 

I think the difference is though, you probably want a game with, to use your analogy, cogs that can "change shape" to fit a needed roll.

 

Where as I'd prefer a game with 7 cogs, or 8 cogs and each cog has to fit perfectly.

 

Just a difference is style.

[Viera]

There's absolutely nothing to say that breaking down the trinity necessarily needs to lead to shallow or uninspired gameplay. I like well designed systems too, but the trinity has become a crutch. When I read one of the first interviews Bioware gave regarding TOR, and they announced that Jedi could tank by "using the Force to form a shield" I wanted to throw up. There are a lot of crazy innovative games being made out there. I'm sure we could have a game that promoted teamwork/systems play while at the same time allowing players to remain self sufficient, rather than the same three cogs of an interlocking wheel.

 

We'll see how TSW and GW2 handle it and go from there.

 

Jedi have always been able to use the Force to protect themselves. Look up Tutaminis.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were both able to block blaster bolts with their bare hands.

 

Not to mention all the force powers such as:

 

Protection Bubble, Force barrier, Force protection, Force Defend, Force Absorb, Force Sphere, etc, etc.

[BloatedGuppy]

I think the difference is though, you probably want a game with, to use your analogy, cogs that can "change shape" to fit a needed roll.

 

Where as I'd prefer a game with 7 cogs, or 8 cogs and each cog has to fit perfectly.

 

Just a difference is style.

 

Yeah that's fine. You've still torn down the trinity.

 

I think the presumption here is that everyone who dislikes the trinity wants to DPS cowboy and hammer the 1 button until the enemies fall down. I dislike the trinity because it's starting to feel like I've been playing the same game since 1998 with the textures switched around.

[BloatedGuppy]

Jedi have always been able to use the Force to protect themselves. Look up Tutaminis.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were both able to block blaster bolts with their bare hands.

 

Not to mention all the force powers such as:

 

Protection Bubble, Force barrier, Force protection, Force Defend, Force Absorb, Force Sphere, etc, etc.

 

I'm not going to get into a lore argument with a Star Wars fan because I'm going to lose, but I'm sure you can appreciate why "The Jedi tank uses the force to form a shield!" would sound pretty depressing in an environment where competing MMOs were talking about pushing gameplay AWAY from Tank-Heal-DeePeeEss.

[Viera]

All I have to say in regards to the Trinity is that it exists for a reason. It works. The grass is not always greener on the otherside, innovation does not always work, and not everybody wants a change. Some people like ordered time-tested mechanics that work.

[BloatedGuppy]

All I have to say in regards to the Trinity is that it exists for a reason. It works. The grass is not always greener on the otherside, innovation does not always work, and not everybody wants a change. Some people like ordered time-tested mechanics that work.

Coming in 2015...World Of Chess.

 

The trinity we have today is like, 12 years old. Can we abandon this notion that it's some hoary old gaming convention stretching back 100's of years that couldn't possibly be improved on?

[ApesAmongUs]

The holy trinity goes back to all RPGs.

 

In DND your fighter or paladin or sometimes, cleric, engage the enemy, bashing them down and beating on them, keeping their attention. During this your mage sits off to the side casting a spell that can nuke all of the bad guys. Meanwhile, your dudes with missile weapons shoot from afar and your rogue sneaks up on those enemies. And sometimes, you will have a bard or druid or cleric that might sit in the back also healing people.

 

Everything after the first sentence and before the last one is a list of characters that are pretty much DPS.

Except, you know, it wasn't. In D&D, your thief did abysmal damage. Even with a backstab he was inferior to a fighter and backstabs were rare. The mages could do superior burst damage, but in the majority of cases that was a waste of spell slots that could be used on buffing or crowd control which were really the magic user specialty. And clerics only slightly trailed behind fighters in terms of durability. Same potential AC, slightly lower HP and with the negligible interrupt chance (depending on version), they could heal themselves as well - so no standing in the back and doing anything for them. Plus they had damage only slightly lower than the fighter and above that of the thief.

Edited January 5, 2012 by ApesAmongUs

[Viera]

I'm not going to get into a lore argument with a Star Wars fan because I'm going to lose, but I'm sure you can appreciate why "The Jedi tank uses the force to form a shield!" would sound pretty depressing in an environment where competing MMOs were talking about pushing gameplay AWAY from Tank-Heal-DeePeeEss.

 

You make the mistake of assuming SWTOR is competing with those MMOs. Those are MMOs which do not exist yet. Ultimately, at this time, SWTOR is competing with WoW. An MMO Which already exists, has a solid fanbase, and has working game mechanics.

 

SWTOR does not need to concern its self with Guild Wars 2 because the people who are interested in Guild Wars 2 will go play Guild Wars 2 regardless of what SWTOR does. The people interested in SWTOR will play SWTOR regardless of what Guild Wars 2 does. There isn't any point in SWTOR making mechanics to compete with a game that 'might' be successful but at the same time 'might not' when they can just make mechanics to compete with a game that 'is' successful. Ya dig?

[Zironic]

The holy trinity goes back to all RPGs.

 

In DND your fighter or paladin or sometimes, cleric, engage the enemy, bashing them down and beating on them, keeping their attention. During this your mage sits off to the side casting a spell that can nuke all of the bad guys. Meanwhile, your dudes with missile weapons shoot from afar and your rogue sneaks up on those enemies. And sometimes, you will have a bard or druid or cleric that might sit in the back also healing people.

 

Everything after the first sentence and before the last one is a list of characters that are pretty much DPS.

 

That's how it works. That is how it makes sense. That is how REAL life fighting would work. I play a live-action wargame with fantasy elements, and that is how it works there, too. The fighters take the front line while lighter armored people that can cause more damage and damage from afar can attack from other angles and a cleric sits in the back healing anybody that might need it.

 

Clearly you didn't play 3rd edition DnD. Both Clerics and Wizards were self sufficient machines of doom and destruction.

 

And real life fighting doesn't have tanks and healers. In real life the Tanks aren't there to soak damage, they're there to completely dominate the enemy, crushing everything in their path to rubble while being armed with some of the heaviest weaponry on the entire battlefield.

 

There's no-one in the back waving a magic wand to make people stop being wounded, what there is is people with low-mobility high-range weaponry hoping that the enemy won't be able to fire back.

 

Even if you go back a thousand years most of the damage was still caused by the heavy infantry and heavy cavalry. The lighter elements are there to flank/trap the enemy and there's still no healing clerics.

[BloatedGuppy]

You make the mistake of assuming SWTOR is competing with those MMOs. Those are MMOs which do not exist yet. Ultimately, at this time, SWTOR is competing with WoW. An MMO Which already exists, has a solid fanbase, and has working game mechanics.

 

SWTOR does not need to concern its self with Guild Wars 2 because the people who are interested in Guild Wars 2 will go play Guild Wars 2 regardless of what SWTOR does. The people interested in SWTOR will play SWTOR regardless of what Guild Wars 2 does. There isn't any point in SWTOR making mechanics to compete with a game that 'might' be successful but at the same time 'might not' when they can just make mechanics to compete with a game that 'is' successful. Ya dig?

 

You are making the erroneous presumption that I am speaking specifically of Guild Wars 2. You are making the erroneous presumption that the reason I don't approve of/find the anachronisms in TOR annoying is because I expect it to compete with Guild Wars 2. You are neglecting to acknowledge that asking for innovation in MMO design is how the genre will continue to grow and evolve rather than stagnate and become formulaic. It's nice that the trinity works. TOR is a fine game. It could have been a little more adventurous in its design, and played it a little less safe. Ya dig?

[Ryzerion]

By the way the way the game is designed overall can't be done without the Holy trinity, they actually is a way it could but after all many will disagree.

 

For a fact ANET designed their game to work without it.

 

That is all.

[Alphasgimaone]

Ever play any sort of organized team sport? There are different positions, i.e. roles. A group in an MMO is like a team, everyone has their specialty.

 

This.

 

And it's the single biggest reason GW2 is going to fail.

 

Grouping (especially PuGs) are going to end up being one giant cluster-fudge. To extend your analogy, one can't field a baseball team with nine utility players and not have problems arise.

 

Also, since three of the eight ACs can respectively fill Tank or Healing roles, once dual-specing comes (and it will) the problem will mostly solve itself.

 

In fact, here's a safe bet:

 

Three years for now PuGing in SWTOR will be relatively simple while in GW2 it will be nothing short of a nightmare.

[Zironic]

Yeah that's fine. You've still torn down the trinity.

 

I think the presumption here is that everyone who dislikes the trinity wants to DPS cowboy and hammer the 1 button until the enemies fall down. I dislike the trinity because it's starting to feel like I've been playing the same game since 1998 with the textures switched around.

 

I think that WoW has been helping slightly pushing the genre in the right direction ever since they started to make many boss damage mechanics into "You die" rather then "You take some damage" putting more and more of the job of surviving onto the DPS themselves rather then the healers.

 

If you just take those kinds of ideas a bit further you could possibly eliminate the Healing role. Eliminating the Tanking role should then be rather easy.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Zironic

[Ryzerion]

This.

 

And it's the single biggest reason GW2 is going to fail.

 

Grouping (especially PuGs) are going to end up being one giant cluster-fudge. To extend your analogy, one can't field a baseball team with nine utility players and not have problems arise.

 

Also, since three of the eight ACs can respectively fill Tank or Healing roles, once dual-specing comes (and it will) the problem will mostly solve itself.

 

In fact, here's a safe bet:

 

Three years for now PuGing in SWTOR will be relatively simple while in GW2 it will be nothing short of a nightmare.

 

So when your wrong what will you do?

[Viera]

But, what’s so bad about the holy trinity, anyways? We’ve all seen what it’s like in World of Warcraft; most people can’t even handle focusing on a single role, and those who can take great pride in their ability to be an excellent tank or healer. MMOs strive to make players feel special, and well, it’s hard to feel ‘special’ when just about anyone else can do what you can do in a group. It feels great as a Bard to bring unique buffs and utility to the group, or as a Warrior to know that your deft handling of a chaotic encounter was instrumental in your group coming out on top.

 

The trinity, as divisive as it can sometimes be, also helps forge community. That feeling of being special lends itself well to allowing players to establish a reputation for themselves. You might want that guy because he’s a great and reliable tank or healer, for example. In light of the growing trend of MMO designs accommodating ‘solo play’ in every way imaginable, the erosion of the trinity only exacerbates this issue. Soon enough, players will form groups consisting of completely self-sufficient characters that only come together briefly because the encounter is designed such that it requires X amount of bodies present. Where’s the fun in this?

 

Flexibility also causes additional loot drama. Maybe not so much for guilds with strict systems for loot distribution, but certainly in PUGs or more casual guilds. I’m sure you’ve all been there. You’ve been running some instance or raid about 100 times looking for this perfect trinket for your class and some goob rolls on it for his ‘off-spec’.

 

Innovation =/= better.

[Razhah]

I dunno, lately I am beginning to think that MMO's biggest flaw is the MM part.