Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[awesomebilly]

I have seen the videos.. if you read my post... that's how I fully understood the bug.

 

The actual videos show the issue.. not steps to reproduce consistently.

 

Please READ before you reply.

[awesomebilly]

Please never post this again... you're doing nothing of value with that post... AT ALL... nor do you have the grasp or understanding that its more complex than a "HURR DURR, I DO THIS, GAME DOES THAT... FIX IT GUYZ"...

 

The devs know the issues, intricately so... what we can do to help is further discuss details in a manner of discussion, not outline as you put forth with that incredible gigantic coloured font.

 

If you worked in software you'd be fired the first day.

 

We need steps to reproduce.. you have the knowledge of a child when it comes to working with a developer to fixing an issue.

 

As to HURR HURR I Do this...

I'm trying to explain to you kids that we need details.. instead of..

I press a button and game is laggy....

 

the videos posted are great.

 

Please before you post again.. read up on how SQA / Development works.. Google

SDLC..

 

PS: the kids will post like your reply..

The people that matter

 

and can actual create a video or

 

write detailed steps WILL DO SO.

Edited January 7, 2012 by awesomebilly

[Tiron_Raptor]

This is very reminiscent of a problem in SWG's Jump to Lightspeed expansion.

 

There was a problem commonly referred to as the "Bumblebee problem" in space combat. Basically, enemy ships would bounce around all over the screen for certain people, making space combat literally impossible - you couldn't target anything because the enemy would jump to a different position with every single frame - all the way from one corner of the screen to the other. In other words, 60 FPS meant the enemy popping up in 60 different positions every second.

 

There were massive threads about it with tons and tons of people complaining. There were also tons and tons of people claiming the problem didn't exist, or making fun of them for having a shoddy connection or system.

 

It dragged on for months. I'd play side-by-side with my brother and watch it work perfectly for me while he was completely helpless.

 

Well it turned out that it was a problem with the nForce2 chipset (which was extremely popular at the time because it was rockin' awesome), and it was finally fixed.

 

The reason I bring this up is because it's maddening to watch people claim a problem doesn't exist just because it doesn't happen to them. At a certain point, people need to realize people are complaining about this problem for a reason.

 

Obviously. The trick being that it's becoming increasingly apparent that what some people see as a problem, some other people see as a beneficial feature.

 

Yes, there are some bugs that are making the system not look like it should, but that's not the only thing people are complaining about.

 

Seriously, that smuggler vid, I can't decide if what xcore is complaining about is the fact that the grenade takes two valid clicks to activate (apparently because of a problem with the castbar ability used first hanging for a short time before activating), or if he's complaining about the grenade taking two seconds to actually visibly hit the target, because his descriptions bounce back and forth.

 

The former I see as a problem that needs to be fixed. The latter I see as a feature that aids immersion by increasing realism, without having any detrimental effect on the mechanics at all.

 

Now some of the stuff mentioned where stuff is happening out of order IS a problem, but that's different from the animation getting bumped for a second so that it doesn't do something impossible, or just skip an animation entirely.

 

In any case where it interferes with actual combat, it's a problem. The dispute seems to be about if the fact that the grenade doesn't go flying out of the character's chest as soon as the button is pressed constitutes 'nonresponsiveness'.

[Terko_Koslah]

Negative, in fact you appear to be the only one truly confused about anything recently. If people are confused, surely there would be more following and support for your position?

 

Well, I see also more like Tiron. Ability delay in my opinion is something that is related to abilities(but not all), ability queuing and also to animation and cast bars. All of these are not working correctly together and thus give a bad feeling of character responsiveness(in my opinion).

 

But to call it ability delay says there is something wrong in the code. This matter in my opinion is that to say that the game code is not as modern what comes to gameplay as in WoW at this time even though it could evolve would be more precise.

 

I agree the developers should improve on this matter.

 

Also I wanted to give an example where there is no ability delay. So if you just swing your lightsaber with basic swing. I doesn't feel sluggish but somehow it doesn't feel as responsive as in WoW. So human gameplay experience is strongly tied to this matter and therefore there are many people who don't experience this delay.

 

I would like to know if some people experience this delay by just doing a simple swing with their lightsaber? And if many people won't then ability delay is a correlation(a bad one in my opinion) of certain abilities, ability queuing, animation and cast bars we haven't gotten used to.

 

And I am sure the developers know this and are working hard to improve their game. And improving the game concerning the ability delay issue as many here call it is I feel to improve the gameplay experience for all players, not just theirs who experience it.

 

Didn't intent to make this as long. I'm a fan of this thread.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Crap like that already happens to me. Having my character oscillate in place wildly for no apparent reason. Having to recast and ability three or four times and having the animation start and stop every single time isn't jarring? I suspect you just haven't run into the animations breaking yet. Personally I would prefer animation clipping to the bizzare interactions that occur from the current system that both break immersion and break gameplay.

 

Sounds like the non-GCD bug, which doesn't have anything to do with the animations, it has to do with abilities not working the way they're supposed to. Because they're not supposed to work that way, the client gets confused and the animations screw up.

 

That's a bug, not a delay.

[Taeldian]

Not if it means that this game is going to turn into another game like WoW with crappy, lightweight, constantly interrupted animations that give no sense that one's character is a living being who has mass and is making physical effort.

 

I am putting my f*****g foot down about this.

 

There are enough games weighted towards achievers and player-killers out there, let's have a game weighted towards immersioneers and socializers for a change.

 

Of course an MMO is a game, and has to have some element of competitiveness and achievement, but MMOs are also virtual worlds, places to dream and roleplay, to imagine you are living someone else's life. To go totally down the animation-clipping route would diminish that.

 

And it's not necesary even for achievers if everyone's in the same boat and the system is working consistenly as it should, with a sense not that you are pressing a key and some "schtick" instantly happens, but rather that you are pressing a key and living through a moment of effort of a physical-feeling avatar on the screen.

 

I want to make something perfectly clear:

 

I'm playing SWTOR over any other MMO because of the story. I'm playing it because of the roleplaying aspect. If I were just an achiever or a player-killer, I wouldn't be here. I'm here because of the ways this game is unique. I carefully ponder every single conversation option, and I fret when a conversation isn't going my way. I've been evangelizing this game specifically because of the story.

 

Stop accusing me and others complaining about this issue of wanting every game to be WoW. It's obnoxious and flat-out wrong. If I wanted WoW, I'd be playing WoW.

 

It's incredibly frustrating to me when my immersion breaks. I don't want the immersion to break. I want to feel connected to my character because that's what this game is all about.

 

When my control over my character does not feel fluid because there's a delay between keypress and response, that breaks my immersion. When I'm trying to get a backstab off before a stun ends and I can't get my character to actually do it, that breaks my immersion. There is nothing less immersive than the feeling that you aren't in control of your own character.

 

If an animation clips, that might shake my immersion. Better than shattering it by spending an entire 5-second stun trying desperately to get my backstab off before the stun ends.

 

The interesting thing about all of this? The people who aren't getting delays wouldn't even get animations clipped because their actions are evidently matching their animations perfectly already. Good for you - nothing changes for you, except for the fact that the occasional lag spike won't be nearly as crippling as it would otherwise be.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian

[Rasstavad]

Crap like that already happens to me. Having my character oscillate in place wildly for no apparent reason. Having to recast and ability three or four times and having the animation start and stop every single time isn't jarring? I suspect you just haven't run into the animations breaking yet. Personally I would prefer animation clipping to the bizzare interactions that occur from the current system that both break immersion and break gameplay.

 

Yeah, me cursing at my monitor because my toon isn't doing what I'm telling it to do breaks any "immersion" for me... having to stare at my quickbar in confusion wondering what the hell is going on while some smuggler is sticking his boot up my *** has that effect too.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Rasstavad

[TheDecibelle]

Man. I noticed this, and im a casual... but...

 

Wow. +1. all i can say.

 

Good example: healing on Hammer Station, against Battlemaster. Cast a heal. Red spot on ground, under your feet... While it's preparing, you wait, desperate to move before the boom. Moment it says it's done, you move.

 

Heal doesn't happen. Tank dies.

Edited January 7, 2012 by TheDecibelle

[iResist]

Sounds like the non-GCD bug, which doesn't have anything to do with the animations, it has to do with abilities not working the way they're supposed to. Because they're not supposed to work that way, the client gets confused and the animations screw up.

 

That's a bug, not a delay.

 

Here is a perfect example of what you are talking about:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2s4laFfdqM

 

 

Notice as the character is just about to jump, there is a stutter in the animation, causing a delay.

Edited January 7, 2012 by iResist

[gurugeorge]

but but but my casual super friendly RP exploration will be ruined!!

 

What I got out of that quote was mostly a super casual who is immensly afraid of this game having any type of competitive environment. He simply thinks that if the controls become responsive enough that us hardcore gamers will take over and be mean to them or something... These "casuals" (I hate that term, I think the term "bads" is more appropriate here) think they have found a safe haven from many of the core aspects of what drive an MMO - they want an an entire game based on Goldshire, to be specific. I really have a hard time understanding this. Why people would want an artifically low skillcap, an easy game that anybody can be good because everybody is equally bad, is really beyond me.

 

Nah, it's more that there are other things to be gotten out of MMOs than achievement/"sucess" alone, and that in fact you need a balance of the different qualities for an MMO to actually be good.

 

The original idea of an MMO was of a virtual world, a virtual "place" in which you are part of a virtual community and have a sort of "second life". Such virtual worlds often include combat of course, because combat is fun. They also includes some degree of achievement, because many people like achieving, ranking, etc. It also includes PvP, because it's challenging and particularly exciting (and also a way to blow off steam). But it also includes some degree of chatting, lore, immersion and roleplaying, because some people like those activities.

 

I'm just sick to death of the trend of MMOs to cater exclusively to achievers, even at the expense of PvP-ers (some of whom are also achievers, but some not), but especially at the expense of socializers and immersioneers. It's precisely that trend that has "dumbed down" MMOs over the years. "Be careful what you wish for" is the relevant point. Think about it. (You know that Blizz got some core elements of WoW design from listening to focus groups of EQ players?)

 

There are many kinds of game, and competitiveness and achievement are by no means sufficient conditions of a thing being rightly called a "game".

[Xcore]

Well, at least you haven't lost your sense of humour

 

So, by what means other than perception are you distinguishing a problem that's omnipresent but sometimes masked (and therefore sometimes not perceived), from a problem that's merely intermittent? Care to enlighten?

 

In order of importance to understand this subject at full breadth:

 

1) Intellect -- Firm grasp of logic and comprehension, problem solving, critical thinking

2) Gaming Experience -- Pro Gaming, Competitive

3) MMO Gaming Expeirence -- Professional, Competitive

4) Programming/Coding -- C++

5) High attention to detail/perfectionism

6) Min Maxing (Part of #2, 3)

 

The above six I posses at decent levels, the below I do not:

 

1) API and Library Knowledge

2) Scripting Language Knowledge -- Lua etc.

3) Development Structure Knowledge

4) Network Coding Knowledge

5) Engine Design Knowledge/Engine Coding

 

 

i don't know if this makes you happy? Are you asking specifically programming/coding knowledge? If so I know a decent amount of C++ and Java... nothing at all regarding Lua or any other "scripting".

 

You know, most of this is simply observational intelligence and common sense/logic right? Coupled with high degree of familiarity in regards to MMO Gaming....

 

This is why any Pro Gamer can come into this topic and give incredibly detailed analysis of the issue at hand. Not how to fix it, but certainly determine the problem...

[Xcore]

Obviously. The trick being that it's becoming increasingly apparent that what some people see as a problem, some other people see as a beneficial feature.

 

Yes, there are some bugs that are making the system not look like it should, but that's not the only thing people are complaining about.

 

Seriously, that smuggler vid, I can't decide if what xcore is complaining about is the fact that the grenade takes two valid clicks to activate (apparently because of a problem with the castbar ability used first hanging for a short time before activating), or if he's complaining about the grenade taking two seconds to actually visibly hit the target, because his descriptions bounce back and forth.

 

The former I see as a problem that needs to be fixed. The latter I see as a feature that aids immersion by increasing realism, without having any detrimental effect on the mechanics at all.

 

Now some of the stuff mentioned where stuff is happening out of order IS a problem, but that's different from the animation getting bumped for a second so that it doesn't do something impossible, or just skip an animation entirely.

 

In any case where it interferes with actual combat, it's a problem. The dispute seems to be about if the fact that the grenade doesn't go flying out of the character's chest as soon as the button is pressed constitutes 'nonresponsiveness'.

 

The ability initiates too late, as soon as the castbar completes from the previous ability (and GCD isn't on) the next ability should initiate... rather simple...

 

Don't care about the actual animation... at all... the actual ability is simply not able to initiate because we're busy watching another blaster bolt go (even though the cast bar has concluded and there is no GCD).

[dotNex]

I will just leave this here (its from another forum):

 

I hit an instant cast force heal or static shield but it isn't instant at all because my guy feels like doing the macarena before he sets it up and suddenly the tank is dead.

 

This is so damn true. I really hate this delay and to everyone that says "M8 there is no delay whatsoever" .. well, I honestly dont know how to respond to that. It is either a player that isnt really focused while playing (I dont want to say 'bad player') or he's playing the "wrong" class. By wrong I mean a class that isnt so animations-heavy. I feel the delay even on my sith assassin and there are other classes /especially the republic mirror class of the sith sorcerer/ that have some huge issues when it comes to using instant cast / animation-intensive abilities. Instant cast is "I press button A, ability X goes off INSTANTLY". If an ability was meant to have a delay before the effect is applied, it should have some casting time.

 

 

And I hate wow with passion, I dont even want to touch it with a stick. This argument is invalid.

[TheDecibelle]

Man. I noticed this, and im a casual... but...

 

Wow. +1. all i can say.

 

Good example: healing on Hammer Station, against Battlemaster. Cast a heal. Red spot on ground, under your feet... While it's preparing, you wait, desperate to move before the boom. Moment it says it's done, you move.

 

Heal doesn't happen. Tank dies.

 

This is what you're talking about, right? Just to check.

[Tiron_Raptor]

When my control over my character does not feel fluid because there's a delay between keypress and response, that breaks my immersion. When I'm trying to get a backstab off before a stun ends and I can't get my character to actually do it, that breaks my immersion. There is nothing less immersive than the feeling that you aren't in control of your own character.

That's two different things you've complained about there: The latter is a bug. The former may be because you're using the animations to define what the 'response' is, instead of the UI like you're supposed to.

 

If an animation clips, that might shake my immersion. Better than shattering it by spending an entire 5-second stun trying desperately to get my backstab off before the stun ends.

If the animations had anything to do with your backstab not working right, rather than just your backstab just being bugged, I'd agree with you.

 

Personally the animation clipping was one of the reasons I never felt like I had a 'character' on WoW at all. It makes it feel very mechanical, like my toon's just a bunch of numbers, not an actual character.

 

It's like the difference between roleplayers and rollplayers. Clipped animations are more the sort of thing for the latter.

 

The interesting thing about all of this? The people who aren't getting delays wouldn't even get animations clipped because their actions are evidently matching their animations perfectly already. Good for you - nothing changes for you, except for the fact that the occasional lag spike won't be nearly as crippling as it would otherwise be.

 

No, they're not matching the animations already. They just don't consider the animations not matching to be a responsiveness issue. The UI already told them the ability worked before the animation starts playing, and that's all they need as far as a 'response'. The animations are just there to look pretty.

 

Hell, you could slap an Nethack-style ASCII interface(or a Baldur's Gate/Diablo II style sprite-based interface if you prefer) on this, and as long as the server messages were formed correctly the combat would play exactly the same. 3D movement would be beyond painful, but the combat'd work just fine.

 

You don't NEED the animations for anything, because they don't INDICATE anything: They're secondary indicators for immersion purposes only.

[Terko_Koslah]

The ability initiates too late, as soon as the castbar completes from the previous ability (and GCD isn't on) the next ability should initiate... rather simple...

 

Don't care about the actual animation... at all... the actual ability is simply not able to initiate because we're busy watching another blaster bolt go (even though the cast bar has concluded and there is no GCD).

 

I would say this is a gameplay mechanic that they won't change. But I'm not a prophet. But I agree the last tick of damage from blaster bolt should come at the same time the cast bar finishes, otherwise there is no point to cast bar.

[Rasstavad]

This is what you're talking about, right? Just to check.

 

There are actually a few issues bundled in this thread. But you are describing one of them. Another way to see this is to jump and try to cast something the second you land. You will often get a brief cast bar and then a "can't do that while moving" error.

 

... just so many issues with our control over our avatars. I wish it was just one thing.

[Tiron_Raptor]

The ability initiates too late, as soon as the castbar completes from the previous ability (and GCD isn't on) the next ability should initiate... rather simple...

 

Don't care about the actual animation... at all... the actual ability is simply not able to initiate because we're busy watching another blaster bolt go (even though the cast bar has concluded and there is no GCD).

 

You DO care about the actual animation, because according to the UI, the ability DID initiate as soon as the castbar from the previous ability finished.

 

That's the problem, you and I have different standards for what constitutes the ability being 'initiated'.

 

In my mind, as soon as the ability is accepted by the server as having been used as indicated by the UI, the ability has 'initiated' and I don't need to worry about it anymore.

 

That *Does* happen immediately, the castbar on the previous ability just takes longer to finish than it should, which makes the first valid keypress not even register.

 

The second keypress DOES register however, and the ability 'initiates' immediately thereafter. And has its full effects relayed on the UI approximately one second later(Do I need to take another screenshot to demonstrate this?)

 

The only thing that doesn't 'initate' until the end of the blaster bolt anim is the grenade animation... so what precisely are you using as your standard for 'initiation' if you don't care about the animation, yet say it doesn't 'initiate' until after the blaster anim?

 

I would say this is a gameplay mechanic that they won't change. But I'm not a prophet. But I agree the last tick of damage from blaster bolt should come at the same time the cast bar finishes, otherwise there is no point to cast bar.

 

Charged Burst is a castbar ability, not a channeled one. It only has one damage tick, that only goes off after the castbar finishes.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[gurugeorge]

 

When my control over my character does not feel fluid because there's a delay between keypress and response, that breaks my immersion. When I'm trying to get a backstab off before a stun ends and I can't get my character to actually do it, that breaks my immersion. There is nothing less immersive than the feeling that you aren't in control of your own character.

 

What type of control of your character do you want?

 

In real life, if you were to do x action, could you instantly "cancel" that action and do another?

 

No.

 

But that's the type of "responsiveness" Xcore and some others here are looking for.

 

The type of responsiveness I want is that when I press a key, the avatar does an action that takes a certain amount of time to carry through, and SOME of those actions AREN'T IMMEDIATELY INTERRUPTABLE by another keypress. This simulates weight, mass, momentum, etc.

 

And I want this to work without glitches related to GCD, ability firing, animation stuttering, etc.

[Tiron_Raptor]

What type of control of your character do you want?

 

In real life, if you were to do x action, could you instantly "cancel" that action and do another?

 

No.

 

But that's the type of "responsiveness" Xcore and some others here are looking for.

 

The type of responsiveness I want is that when I press a key, the avatar does an action that takes a certain amount of time to carry through, and SOME of those actions AREN'T IMMEDIATELY INTERRUPTABLE by another keypress. This simulates weight, mass, momentum, etc.

 

And I want this to work without glitches related to GCD, ability firing, animation stuttering, etc.

 

Indeed. You quite literally have people in here complaining that they can't fire a blaster and throw a grenade at the same time.

[Xcore]

You DO care about the actual animation, because according to the UI, the ability DID initiate as soon as the castbar from the previous ability finished.

 

That's the problem, you and I have different standards for what constitutes the ability being 'initiated'.

 

In my mind, as soon as the ability is accepted by the server as having been used as indicated by the UI, the ability has 'initiated' and I don't need to worry about it anymore.

 

That *Does* happen immediately, the castbar on the previous ability just takes longer to finish than it should, which makes the first valid keypress not even register.

 

The second keypress DOES register however, and the ability 'initiates' immediately thereafter. And has its full effects relayed on the UI approximately one second later(Do I need to take another screenshot to demonstrate this?)

 

The only thing that doesn't 'initate' until the end of the blaster bolt anim is the grenade animation... so what precisely are you using as your standard for 'initiation' if you don't care about the animation, yet say it doesn't 'initiate' until after the blaster anim?

 

 

 

Charged Burst is a castbar ability, not a channeled one. It only has one damage tick, that only goes off after the castbar finishes.

 

Actually I don't believe that the server registers it the second the castbar of the previous ability has concluded... I believe there to be a .2-.5 delay. Which is my issue with it, the animation also being jarring is another problem that is more cosmetic but still highly important to overall polish.

 

So I disagree with you analysis of the video that the animation is the only thing that lags, I think its the actual ability itself, the communication from client to server.

[Terko_Koslah]

Charged Burst is a castbar ability, not a channeled one. It only has one damage tick, that only goes off after the castbar finishes.

 

So how to fix this issue? Any suggestions? Make it a channeled?

[Xcore]

What type of control of your character do you want?

 

In real life, if you were to do x action, could you instantly "cancel" that action and do another?

 

No.

 

But that's the type of "responsiveness" Xcore and some others here are looking for.

 

The type of responsiveness I want is that when I press a key, the avatar does an action that takes a certain amount of time to carry through, and SOME of those actions AREN'T IMMEDIATELY INTERRUPTABLE by another keypress. This simulates weight, mass, momentum, etc.

 

And I want this to work without glitches related to GCD, ability firing, animation stuttering, etc.

 

You are correct, as much as I want decent animations if forced to chose I would always prefer gameplay.

 

I don't think this is the game for you in fact if you are seeking ultra-realism as described above... perhaps if The Sims Online worked out you'd have enjoyed it.

[Taeldian]

The former may be because you're using the animations to define what the 'response' is, instead of the UI like you're supposed to.

 

I'm actually watching neither. I'm watching the enemy's health bar and my surroundings. You know, because I'm actually trying to maintain situational awareness while I'm fighting; I don't need to watch cooldowns because I know what ability I want to use next based on the situation.

 

I'm not used to mindlessly staring at a toolbar spamming a rotation because I actually try to be more heads-up than that. I find the expectation that I start doing that to be utterly ridiculous.

 

With all feedback outside the cooldown itself being tied to the animation, the animation being delayed is a huge deal. The next ability not being executable until the animation finishes, which delays my next attack, is also a huge deal.

 

I'm seriously sick of you trying to trivialize this as being my fault for trying to watch my character do pretty animations. If the animations are so disconnected from the other feedback your UI is giving you that watching the animations is impractical, maybe you actually are experiencing the problem and have no idea because you never look up from your toolbar.

[Xcore]

I'm actually watching neither. I'm watching the enemy's health bar and my surroundings. You know, because I'm actually trying to maintain situational awareness while I'm fighting; I don't need to watch cooldowns because I know what ability I want to use next based on the situation.

 

I'm not used to mindlessly staring at a toolbar spamming a rotation because I actually try to be more heads-up than that. I find the expectation that I start doing that to be utterly ridiculous.

 

With all feedback outside the cooldown itself being tied to the animation, the animation being delayed is a huge deal. The next ability not being executable until the animation finishes, which delays my next attack, is also a huge deal.

 

I'm seriously sick of you trying to trivialize this as being my fault for trying to watch my character do pretty animations. If the animations are so disconnected from the other feedback your UI is giving you that watching the animations is impractical, maybe you actually are experiencing the problem and have no idea because you never look up from your toolbar.

 

Well put