Recent actions against some customer accounts

[xngxng]

Hating on the community? I'm sorry, but this concept that everyone deserves respect came around long after my time. When I grew up, if you wanted respect you had to earn it. I refuse to bother to listen to anyone who isn't going to take six seconds and apply basic common sense to an issue, like some are here.

 

Any time I see someone performing semotics and linguistics to words like "excessive" I know I'm dealing with people I'd rather not. That is not "hating". Hating would be to insult these people and dismiss their arguments using ad hominem attacks. I'm dismissing their arguments because they have all the logical consistency of pond water. They're probably nice people.

 

Internal Bioware info? No, this is what I saw with my own eyes. Others saw it and reported it as well.

 

Nevertheless I grant your point -- the OP was ... man. Badly worded. Very, very badly worded. And it's pretty clear they are NOT going to fix this exploit, which infuriates. We have an 80+ page thread because someone is too busy doing the CYA Safety Dance to simply get out there and say this:

 

"You know very well if you are level 10 you have no business on a level 50 planet. If you can get there and loot something, great. If we catch you colluding with other players to loot the same node 5 times in a minute, and then selling the credits, we're going to warn you. Once. This has nothing to do with grinding, looting, or anything a normal player would ever, ever do.

 

Why is that so hard?

 

It's ok.

[Talryn]

So, lets see.... Someone or someones used legal and acceptable game mechanics to go to a high level planet and loot chests? I didn't know there was a limit on the number of chests that you can loot? I mean, they are laying right there on the ground.

 

So does that mean my level 10 that is sitting in town with 400 slicing, which can freely travel on any persons ship is a criminal outlaw. If I sit at a node site while twiddling my thumbs, instead of running around Kaas?

 

I fail to see how using game mechanics to maximize profit is anyone's problem but the developers for poor planning.

 

What about the level 10 toons that are running crafting missions and playing the market for excess money? Is this also a bannable offense?

 

What if I take my naked level 16 toon to tattooine and fly around the pvp zone and harvest bio/scavenging/chests/arch nodes. Is this is bannable offenses, if I fly in a circle all day?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Talryn

[monegames]

I've seen them myself, with my own eyes, on Ilum. I hardly need the OP BW rep to tell me this, I reported some of them!!

 

I don't give a bent penny whether people listen to me or put me on ignore as long as they don't decide that histrionics should decide what is and isn't an issue.

 

then those players should have been banned for using exploits excessively, but neither the op nor any response from bioware said that the ones suspended were using exploits to respawn the containers.

 

if they would have this whole discussion would have ended. and they wouldn't need to explain the exploit nor would they have to provide any personal info. since "players were suspended for using exploits to respawn loot containers." would be similar to what i have seen from other mmo devs.

[Yuuj]

Exploits like these is largely why Blizzard removed chest from the World of Warcraft. We have the same types of people as we had there posting in this thread playing the ignorant card and the fear cards. The, "I didn't know, how is this my fault, how could I have possibly been able to figure out I shouldn't have been in a zone 20-25 levels higher than me?" ignorant arguement and the "Oh, so am I going to get banned for 'list of acceptable behaviors that don't compare the the exploit players are being warned for' too now?" fear card to scare legitimate players into thing Bioware is being unreasonable. Bioware is not being unreasonable.

 

Take a look at all the people in this thread who are claiming they aren't doing anything wrong, because when Bioware decides chest aren't worth the headache and remove them completely from the game, it'll be those people who are to blame.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Yuuj

[vextone]

"You know very well if you are level 10 you have no business on a level 50 planet. If you can get there and loot something, great. If we catch you colluding with other players to loot the same node 5 times in a minute, and then selling the credits, we're going to warn you. Once. This has nothing to do with grinding, looting, or anything a normal player would ever, ever do.

 

See I take issue with that.

 

Why do you have an issue if i take my level 10 char anywhere? I know very well that I bought a game product and have just as much right to its content as anyone else.

 

I've been playing MMORPG's for over 15 years and I often find myself doing things just because of the challenge. As a matter of fact I've done just this in EQ2 with my crafter(s) because you know what- screw all of you adventurer elitists that want the game to benefit you. So what I'm not max level if i want to go somewhere to gather resources I will. So what are they jealous that I have skills to get around on a zone/planet that only the "elite" adventurers are supposed to be enjoying or reaping the benefits of?

 

What's next for people like you to report people like me that take their level 1 char to the star fleet because I know very well I have no business being there?

 

or

 

that I'm gathering resources on Taris while over leveled and immune to the critters there?

 

That's the slippery slope....

[monegames]

Exploits like these is largely why Blizzard removed chest from the World of Warcraft. We have the same types of people as we had there posting in this thread playing the ignorant card and the fear cards. The, "I didn't know, how is this my fault, how could I have possibly been able to figure out I shouldn't have been in a zone 20-25 levels higher than me?" ignorant arguement and the "Oh, so am I going to get banned for 'list of acceptable behaviors that don't compare the the exploit players are being warned for' too now?" fear card to scare legitimate players into thing Bioware is being unreasonable. Bioware is not being unreasonable.

 

Take a look at all the people in this thread who are claiming they aren't doing anything wrong, because when Bioware decides chest aren't worth the headache and remove them completely from the game, it'll be those people who are to blame.

 

then take the level recomendation and make it a requirement problem solved. no low level could get any

[vextone]

So, lets see.... Someone or someones used legal and acceptable game mechanics to go to a high level planet and loot chests? I didn't know there was a limit on the number of chests that you can loot? I mean, they are laying right there on the ground.

 

So does that mean my level 10 that is sitting in town with 400 slicing, which can freely travel on any persons ship is a criminal outlaw. If I sit at a node site while twiddling my thumbs, instead of running around Kaas?

 

I fail to see how using game mechanics to maximize profit is anyone's problem but the developers for poor planning.

 

What about the level 10 toons that are running crafting missions and playing the market for excess money? Is this also a bannable offense?

 

What if I take my naked level 16 toon to tattooine and fly around the pvp zone and harvest bio/scavenging/chests/arch nodes. Is this is bannable offenses, if I fly in a circle all day?

 

exactly!

[Yuuj]

See I take issue with that.

 

Why do you have an issue if i take my level 10 char anywhere? I know very well that I bought a game product and have just as much right to its content as anyone else.

 

I've been playing MMORPG's for over 15 years and I often find myself doing things just because of the challenge. As a matter of fact I've done just this in EQ2 with my crafter(s) because you know what- screw all of you adventurer elitists that want the game to benefit you. So what I'm not max level if i want to go somewhere to gather resources I will. So what are they jealous that I have skills to get around on a zone/planet that only the "elite" adventurers are supposed to be enjoying or reaping the benefits of?

 

What's next for people like you to report people like me that take their level 1 char to the star fleet because I know very well I have no business being there?

 

or

 

that I'm gathering resources on Taris while over leveled and immune to the critters there?

 

That's the slippery slope....

 

What is challenging about sitting in front of a chest and opening it over and over again when it respawns?

[Talryn]

What is challenging about sitting in front of a chest and opening it over and over again when it respawns?

 

What is challenging about killing a mob from your "level" zone?

 

Personally, I really don't care that Bioware banned or warned random people. I just think it really shows some poor planning. There will always be people that want to make credits early and often. You take the least effort approach to that. Now, if they had 10 accounts and were standing at the 10 node spots and macro looting for 24/7. Sure ban them.

 

But if it's one guy in stealth mode sitting at a node point with his game minimized? I fail to see the problem if he opens his client every 5-10 minutes and loots the chest. That should be completely legal game mechanics.

[monegames]

What is challenging about sitting in front of a chest and opening it over and over again when it respawns?

 

what is the challenge of taking you level 1 character to the fleet to pick up the gathering professions. its not intended for you to do so. so they can now suspend you for it if they want. or going back to a low level planet to farm mats since farming is now a suspendable offence. that is the slippery slope that some fear can be caused by these type of rules.

[Yuuj]

What is challenging about killing a mob from your "level" zone?

 

Personally, I really don't care that Bioware banned or warned random people. I just think it really shows some poor planning. There will always be people that want to make credits early and often. You take the least effort approach to that. Now, if they had 10 accounts and were standing at the 10 node spots and macro looting for 24/7. Sure ban them.

 

But if it's one guy in stealth mode sitting at a node point with his game minimized? I fail to see the problem if he opens his client every 5-10 minutes and loots the chest. That should be completely legal game mechanics.

 

Your question is irrelevant. I'm not the person who implied that sneaking up to an unguarded chest and looting it was challenging. However, compared to that, killing mobs around your level would be -more- challenging and would yield less credits. Keeping that in mind, how could anyone possibly think there is nothing wrong with camping a chest and looting it over and over again with not resistance?

[vextone]

What is challenging about sitting in front of a chest and opening it over and over again when it respawns?

 

I would guess - since I haven't done it yet is that there is no challenge to sitting in front of a chest and opening it over and over again when it respawns.

 

The challenge would be getting there and the reward is credits, easy credits.

 

Aside from the RMT's is that the real crutch for people, someone is getting "easy" credits?

[vextone]

But if it's one guy in stealth mode sitting at a node point with his game minimized? I fail to see the problem if he opens his client every 5-10 minutes and loots the chest. That should be completely legal game mechanics.

 

Good thought-

 

this past weekend has been double xp in EQ2 also with vitality many people are getting triple xp. Plus not to mention the special "for a limited time" annual holiday content.

 

So while I play EQ2 with my spouse, on my computer I "play" SWTOR also. Why can't I do the above to earn credits for my chars for when I can "truly play"?

 

I burned through 40k credits doing crew missions and training so I should only be able to replace those credits with conventional limited mmo play thinking?

[Muanthuun]

Can't they just put a few large angry mobs that will kill anyone level ~20 so they can not loot the container unless the mob is dead?

[NinaV]

Dont blame the company for cheaters. There are only so many mechanics a dev can put in place.

 

People need to grow up and stop blaming companins for banning cheaters. These people ruin games.

 

Its like defending a hacker who steals account info and uses it and put all blame on companies i dont get it.

 

Hackers belong in jail and cheaters deserver to be banned. Its simple.

 

Bioware can do EVERYTHING within their creation. Nothing they do not want to happen can be changed. They made everything we can do in game possible.

 

Not the other way around.

 

Not defending cheating, but I find your fatalism on behalf of coders and designers is very misplaced.

 

You're quite right that the issue revolved around looting containers and waiting for them to respawn. But...

 

Let me ask you: If you were to be on Tatooine, finding a chest and opening it and seeing it respawn 1 second later, would you not think that something were amiss. Say you looted that respawned one right away and it respawns again 1 second later. Would you still think that it was normal?

 

Multiply that 20 times - please then do not tell me that you would not be aware that what you were doing was intentionally exploiting a bug or flaw in the gameplay mechanics that allowed this behaviour?

 

Can you not see that this is in no way related to normal gameplay?

 

Also, I do not think Bioware is using players as scapegoat for bad design. As has been said before, it is impossible to fully test a game of this magnitude and to foresee all the ways in which enterprising players find ways to abuse the game mechanics.

 

Just as the first person designing a hammer could not be held responsible for someone later finding out that a hammer might be good for banging someone with. Would you acquit the person using a hammer in such a way also? Hey, not his fault that it could be used that way, right?

 

As examples do I agree, completely. It is a challenge judging such things, and of course very individual.

 

However, to quote someone I think highly about:

Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule. - Jynne

 

I understand that it isn't straight forward, for any party, in handling such situations. Players can easily get cornered into the situation of finding it "unsafe" to not follow the trend, whether it is exploit or not. The fear is of course falling behind, the same reason why people farm in the first place: To get ahead.

 

In this case, however, am I still not having the impression that we are talking about exploits of game mechanics, but rather old fashioned camp-farming.

 

As you also mentioned in on of your posts, could some further clarification have avoided lots of fuzz (like most of this thread).

 

This does not mean that I excuse those that do it constantly, but I excuse those that create such valuable farm-spots even less because they design features that isn't really very fun in the long run. Such features creates walkthrough requirements, need to search the database for clever tricks, timers for camping and other things that should have been left behind in (EQ, UO, AO...) game design (imo).

 

(Sure, WoW got camp-spots, but it is so many alternatives for gathering resources/gear there that it mostly evens out, but it is various player-made inflations going on now and then, just as every expansion create some)

 

More on creating realistic expectations for the customers:

 

I still believe the customers should not be responsible for how to make the game economy work, the devs should be able to prevent this sort of stuff. Looting should never be an issue as they have full control of how much content is dropped by containers and mobs.

I agree. This is a virtual reality, a reality without the same mechanics as in our physical world. So a realistic economy in this virtual reality would either require additional mechanics to counter the lack of realism, or expect to behave different than in our physical world.

 

In short do we not expect the game to be realistic. Perhaps we expect some sort of internal coherency, or logic, but not realism.

 

A game designer need to accept this, or the realistic measures will create unrealistic and likely unfriendly results.

 

(This is what Darth_Nikon refered to, I believe)

 

 

 

What's wrong is people want to know exactly what can get them punished. It's important to have exact detailed rules available. I don't want to worry that if I'm out farming I might be doing something wrong. I don't want to break the rules, I also don't want my account banned. So what am I supposed to do? Not farm because I'm worried it will get me in trouble. I want them to say "hey you can't farm more than X credits in so many hours" if they did that great. I wouldn't have any problems because then it's clear. If they say "you can't kill the same mob more than x in Y hours" then also great. I think what people want is a clear definition of what can get them in trouble. That isn't so much to ask is it?

 

Agreed.

 

I know how they catch people, they are running the server software. It's not very hard to keep track of it at all. Hell if they just set a simple flag so that a number increases. Say the container group id is 10, then when a player loots container 10 it will increase a reference by 1. Once that reaches enough they are flagged for review.

 

How they catch people isn't the issue. The issue is that the first post is intentionally vague on what exactly qualifies as being wrong. The eula for example is very detailed on what exactly qualifies as breaking it (in most cases) The reason for that is pretty self evident, players need to know what they can do.

 

Look at it another way. Say you are driving down the highway, and you get pulled over. The officer starts writing a ticket, and you asked what you did. He replies with "you were going too fast". You ask the speed limit, and he replies with "fast". You again ask "well, how fast is going too fast?". He just says "fast is too fast, now here is your ticket". The people on this thread for the most part are saying "well only speeders want to know how fast is too fast". If that is the case, then why are there even speed limit signs. They are there to let people know "hey if you go over this, you are breaking the law and you might be punished." That's what I'm looking for, a speed limit or something else to define exactly what I can get into trouble for. Now again, I ask is it too much trouble to give me that in a way I can clearly understand? Provide something so that people can say "well, o.k. I know not to go over 55", but what they have done now is say "well too fast is too fast, people are going fast and they are fine but some were going too fast and they got punished" well what the hell is too fast?

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

Why worry about something potentially happening? I mean come on dont you have enough going on you have to worry about stuff that hasnt even happened?

 

What? Isn't it predictability and the so called "common sense" we talk about here? Why do you think it is wise to follow laws and recommendations? Isn't it for the potential of something happening? If people doesn't quite see what has happened that is wrong while getting "put in the jail card", or even warned, shouldn't they try to understand what is wrong? Wouldn't you have wanted to know why you could be, and possible was, put in prison?

 

If not, then excuse me for being "fixated" on this.

 

And before you come with any ideas that I might be a botter, or exploiter myself; no. I do not have to be anything like that to worry about other players. No, not just other players, but people I've never met and never will, people that possibly could have enjoyed SWTOR but got into trouble because of GM's suddenly thinking you looted one chest too many and must be punished for your insolent ignorance. Pillars of salt, anyone?

 

But on the other hand can't I really find it believable that you actually meant what you just wrote in the post I quoted. Quite...incredible. However, if following that idea that since my logic says that it is impossible to not consider things like consequences, does that mean I know that you are trolling and obnoxious on purpose?

[snooggums]

In this case, however, am I still not having the impression that we are talking about exploits of game mechanics, but rather old fashioned camp-farming.

 

It only takes a minimal amount of reading comprehension to understand that this is not action taken for players doing old fashioned camp-farming.

[NinaV]

It only takes a minimal amount of reading comprehension to understand that this is not action taken for players doing old fashioned camp-farming.

In that case do I apology for my lack of "minimal" reading comprehension and the same comprehension, or lacks, of the many many people that has written in this thread (or friends I've talked with outside this forum).

 

I feel I should have had a good retort for your friendly reminder of my station, but I feel much better now.

 

Still, Bioware simply got to cope with it and write better posts and/or support their own topics better, especially when they see trends like this thread.

Edited January 4, 2012 by NinaV

[Baaddare]

Agree. Playing the AH and participating in the economy is a popular metagame for quite a lot of folks in MMOs. This heavy-handedness is going to alienate some hardcore MMO players.

 

hmm people do not want gold farmers in their game and BW took the appropriate action. It is nice that a company is more concerned with making sure their legit customers have a nice game environment than they are about letting gold farmers run wild just to keep sub numbers up like some games do.

[mikelevins]

I'd like to say that I think one aspect of the terms is a mistake. Specifically:

 

"You may not engage in any conduct or practice that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, i.e., 'item loading.'"

 

Many MMO players are interpreting this passage to mean that the common practice of using "mule" or "bank alt" characters is banned in SWTOR. Regardless of whether that interpretation is intended, the policy as stated deters some veteran MMO players from playing SWTOR.

 

"Mule" or "bank alt" characters are a convenience that many players have relied on for years. As a member of a couple of long-lived player groups, I've seen players assert that this policy alone is enough to influence them not to try the game.

 

I'm a player of SWTOR. I think it's a very good game, and I've recommended it as a candidate for starting new team projects in our player groups. I've had replies from some players saying that they won't consider SWTOR as long as this policy is in effect.

 

I'm not saying it's going to sink the game, or anything foolish like that. SWTOR is a very good game, and I expect it to prosper, regardless of what Bioware does about this policy.

 

But I think the policy itself is a big mistake. It's clearly meant to discourage gold farmers, and that's a good thing. From the player point of view, though, all the benefit is reaped by Bioware and all the cost is borne by players. Veteran players have a favorite convenience declared an "exploit" for which they can be banned, and in return they receive no perceivable benefit. Any benefit from controlling gold-farming activity is theoretical--not something players can actually see. Players bear a real and immediate cost in return for a hypothetical and imperceptible benefit.

 

What's more, the purpose of discouraging gold farming is to protect the game against bad experiences that players may possibly have as a result. It seems penny-wise and pound-foolish to address a possible future bad experience by setting a policy that imposes an actual bad experience right now.

 

My remarks are not about my own experience. I don't tend to use mule or bank-alt characters, so the policy has no direct effect on me. My interest in is the communities of players I'm part of. This policy as stated deters game players that would otherwise consider playing SWTOR, including players I'd like to play with. I can't imagine that our people are the only ones put off by this policy.

 

On the whole, I think Bioware has done an excellent job with this release. That good work only makes this mistake all the more glaring. I hope you'll consider modifying the terms to make it clear that mules and bank alts are not exploits, and that they are definitely allowed in SWTOR.

Edited January 4, 2012 by mikelevins

[hargrave]

What id likw people to notice is that the bioware people actually took the time to chat with us and explain what happened here.Had someone tried to post the replies i see here on other mmo forums you would be getting warned and even banned.This is one of the reasons i like bioware.

 

The main point people should look at is even if u do get accidently banned u can appeal and exlain. I will agree it could have been handled better but hey the game hasnt even been out a month yet so bleep happens.

[Icarusandi]

Alot of sharp tools in this shed......

 

Bioware has done nothing wrong.

[humpacactus]

I've said it once and I'll say it again:

 

As it stands Stephen Reids directly explains what he means by exploit.

 

He directly states they had been exploiting the game by "systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced."

 

 

AKA Excessive farming - not botting, not duping items, not selling gold, just excessive farming.

 

To clarify "exploit" even further, Stephen Reid explains that :

 

"They also warned and temporarily suspended - but did not ban - a smaller number of accounts for activities on Ilum that were decided to be game exploits."

 

Emphasis on "decide to be game exploits." They decided that "systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers..." was an exploit.

 

They decided excessive looting and farming was an exploit. There is nothing more to say this is exactly from the mouth of Stephen Reid.

 

With only those paragraphs to go off of there is really nothing more to discuss. It's clear what Stephen Reid said in the OP and it's flat out ridiculous.

 

Can people really not get over the fact that maybe Bioware screwed up here?

 

Edit: Also, once again, this in no way hurts me as a player as I don't really farm excessively. I can surely sympathize with the players who do however.

Edited January 4, 2012 by humpacactus

[monegames]

What id likw people to notice is that the bioware people actually took the time to chat with us and explain what happened here.Had someone tried to post the replies i see here on other mmo forums you would be getting warned and even banned.This is one of the reasons i like bioware.

 

The main point people should look at is even if u do get accidently banned u can appeal and exlain. I will agree it could have been handled better but hey the game hasnt even been out a month yet so bleep happens.

 

the main thing i dont understand is why people were suspended/warned for farming in the first place. every mmo i have ever played has almost encouraged it. they made the chests too easy to get to. then placed the blame on the players for their niave design decesion.

 

what did they expect to happen, low level player goes to ilum to check it out and finds chests he can loot that give better cash than he can get anywhere else at his level and just leave?

[IheartGreenGirls]

So if players what to spend all day farming credits for their own use they can be warned or banned? That doesn't seem right and runs contrary to maintaining an open economy.

 

 

Yeah this, basically. And you guys are encouraging gold buying by making everything including basic training prohibitively expensive.

[MajikMyst]

So make the containers level acessible... Example: Level 40 + Can open them.

 

/eyeroll.

 

So?? Bioware is wrong for not making it impossible for people to break the rules??

 

Hardly!!

 

Bioware has done nothing wrong.. If you can't live by the rules, then you will be punished.. Welcome to life..

 

/rollseyes