Rhyltran
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Posts posted by Rhyltran
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I see someone is trying to bring in the fanfiction that is the EU novels. I'm sorry, that kind of pap was allowed because the higher-ups simply didn't care. Now that everything released is supposedly canon, you're probably going to see a lot less of those stupid super-seiyan shenanigans like Luke moving faster than the speed of light.
You realize this game follows the same formula, right? Valkorion is a world eater.
That being said, I wouldn't be so sure. Let me stick to Disney Canon Vader as per the comics and books that come out.
He moved so quickly he actually surprised Palpatine, people couldn't visiually follows his movements. He was able to swing his lightsaber around so quickly that it created a crimson barrier around him. His blade wasn't even visible. Just a red "glow" that blocked any incoming projectiles. Could lift up an AT-AT with no visual problem. Was able to, on the ground, evade starship fire and take them out of the sky with raw telekinetic force. I can provide far more if you'd like but I don't think you're interested.
Plus the bigger is better mentality hasn't changed. Remember starkiller base in comparison to the death star?
Don't be too surprised if Snoke/Kylo eventually passes up Vader's displays or Luke at which point we're getting close to "Super Saiyan shenanigans."
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Honestly I think the whole WoD thing is hardly any more mature than what some people think of as Star Wars, it's just black and gray instead of black and white, and tends to be just as restrictive and reductive. There are plenty of lawful-good paragons even in this often ugly world we live in, just as there are complete monsters and everything in-between. It's the attempt to gatekeep that I take issue with, kinda like people who say any mythos story where the humans win isn't legit, despite Lovecraft himself writing stories where they did just that.
I disagree. I mean, you can have good characters in the game. Humanity 10 is a thing. It's just nearly impossible to maintain. That doesn't mean you can't strive for it nor does it mean you can't have npcs that are that high. I mean, in WOD terms you start with a humanity of 7. Seven is considered normal. Seven is considered good. Someone at seven may commit selfish actions from time to time but at the same time they'll do what they can to help someone even if it means calling the cops or taking them to the hospital. I've had players manage to keep at a seven or six (though for players going above that is exceedingly hard.) it's just rare. Rarer so because player characters take the front and center stage and unlike in most rpgs you don't ever get to the point where you go "Oh, lol. It's just a knife." you're always a good dice roll for even a simple weapon putting you under. It's just a different type of game.
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Maybe. Thing is even at that point, Sidious would still be regarded as the most powerful Sith, by Lucas comments. At the time, Valk/Vitiate didn't exist but this was the guy that decided the Ins and Outs of Star Wars after all.
Eh, honestly all the arguments of who's the strongest get boring. Omnipotent characters tend to be such shallow and uninteresting characters.
I will argue devil's advocate here. TOR isn't Disney Canon. So Valkorion doesn't even exist in Disney's Continuity so statements in one's universe don't apply. Example, let's assume for a moment I write a story. I have a human who can lift a bus and I give a word of god statement "This is the strongest human in my story to exist and will ever exist." this doesn't give free reign for someone else to state "Well, One-Punch man isn't stronger than him because it was stated that said human is the strongest." Except One Punch Man here is from a different universe, a different continuity with feats that clearly outstrip my character.
Right now the feats for Disney Palpatine, as well as the strength displayed, doesn't compare to Valkorion. That being said, Valkorion and DE Sidious are some of my least favorite characters (despite how much I argue these two's cases.) because as you said, God like characters are boring. This is why my favorite character is Obi Wan. He's definitely not the strongest character but through his flaws he's an interesting one.
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I like this theory!
Small nitpick though - he actually ate EIGHT THOUSAND Sith Lords, not One Thousand.
I'm not sure if I actually buy my theory I proposed. Just something I thought of when reading back through this thread. I think it's possible and actually hope it's something like that because it wouldn't be bad writing. Anything else still doesn't feel quite right.
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Exactly. They've said it is non-canon. That doesn't mean that later they won't say "ok it's canon now". They control the IP. They can do whatever they want. Including change their mind, a concept i'm sure is completely foreign to you.
It's not foreign to me. The problem is most people that take your stance then go on to say "It can change so we should consider it and compare it to canon." Nope. Can they change their mind? Absolutely. Until then it's no more Canon than Legends. Also, it's unlikely they will change their mind without major revisions. Most of the plots in TOR don't function with Disney Canon.
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Theory. Valkorion claimed everything changed after Ziost. Remember, Vitiate originally consumed a 1000 sith lords. Perhaps consuming people changes one's personality. What if he takes on little aspects of those traits? 1000 Sith Lords would create a very hateful being. One that has many different motivations and goals. Vitiate was completely Sith. What if, after consuming Ziost, and having the "essence" of so many ordinary civillians, soldiers, sith, and even Jedi created a new mix into his personality?
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Here's the thing, they were absolutely slaves.
The jedi are not the Republic. The republic was the ones who decided to use the clones. A single Jedi, under the manipulation of Dooku, under the manipulation of Sidious Syfo Dias created the clones in secret. The Jedi do not control the republic. The Jedi did not rule the clones.
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No he wanted to play with him and he lost. As Valkorian said the best sith the empire ever produced but he was also flawed. There wise words. Even Sidious had the same problem that desire to play with his opponents which was his undoing. Hell in legends he even admitted that it was his fault for what happened on the second Death Star.
And yes he was feared by the entirety of the dark council can you believe that after his faked death there was not a background Darth ready to take his place? Nobody dared to make a move against him. That speaks volumes.
That's kind of what I said. If he wanted to kill him he would have. If he "Chose to win" revenge of the sith novelization wording towards Anakin vs Dooku the agent would have been gonzo in a flash. Even then, the agent only manages to delay/trap him. He wasn't capable of killing him.
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It's utter nonsense, to say that Obi-Wan, isn't on the same level as Jadus. SWTOR is a game, so most characters are presented as over powered, but let's stay realistic. Obi-Wan, is a MONSTER. The guy beat, fair and square, Darth Maul AND Savage Opress at the same time.
The main problem here isn't that a Force user can't be beaten by a non-Force user. Saying that is just sheer ignorance of canonical evidences. Cad Bane, Jango Fett, Pre Vizsla... They went against powerful Jedi.
So, the main problem... The main problem is the depiction of distance fighting in SWTOR. you can easily imagine a hand to hand combat with light sabers, but it is hard to imagine your Imperial agent getting mowed by savers' hit without a scratch. But if you choose to ignore what you see in gameplay, and imagine something more akin to what we can see in the movies and TV shows... Well I don't mind. Basically, even Darth Malgus, nearly got killed by a basic soldier, in a realistic way.
I'd argue against the bold. He never had a clear edge over TCW maul. Ventress and him fought Savage Opress and Maul. Obi was clearly struggling. Against the two of them he held his own well enough by forcing them into tight quarters (which soresu is good at) and focused on the weaker link (maul's brother.) He never landed a clean blow on maul himself.
Look at 4:30, he knocks Savage down, and Maul completely uses the force to lift him off the ground. Then throws him against the wall casually. Over here Obi Wan gets ragdolled when Maul is done playing around. They then strike in unison, Obi Wan kicks savage's leg one final time, and then slices off his arm. Maul, angered at his brother getting maimed, sends Obi Wan flying down the hallway. Maul was clearly more powerful than Obi.
This doesn't showcase Obi Wan as powerful. It does show him to be great at tactics and very experienced in combat. He stuck with a strategy even in the face of it not bearing any fruits. He stuck with it because dealing with the weaker one was his best shot at survival. We see that this pays off. As when Savage is injured, instead of killing Obi Wan, Maul decides to save his brother.
Jadus knows fold space, can essentially teleport at will, and was feared by the entirety of the dark council. That being said, Jadus is still not on my "Top tier force user" radar. So I don't know why you brought him into this. Jadus would get murdered by.. Exar Kun, Sidious, Plagueis, Krayt, Luke Skywalker, etc. Despite this, I don't think he really wanted to kill the agent. Jadus was strong enough that if he DID want to kill the agent, he would have.
Darth Malgus tanked missiles and grenades. In a fight that was before his prime. :/ and while he approaches "Top tier" material he still isn't a Tier 0 force user.
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But that stormtrooper would be under Sidious command and therefore obviously shouldn't be allowed to disrespect his emporer. On the contrary Sidious never exploded into fits of murderous rage whenever someone not directly working for him talked back to him during the prequel area.
At the time he couldn't afford to. Though, those that disliked him and showed dissent towards him did have a tendency to have.. accidents.
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Sidious seems to keep his **** together.
Only because he barely interacts with anyone else. The only one who usually sees him in person is Vader but you can bet on it that if he walked by a stormtrooper and they said something like "move out of the way old man." that storm trooper isn't going to be around for much longer.
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Cade Bane against Obi Won, Cade Bane against Anakin Skywalker. Leaving those aside did you actually said that Obi Won is not a top tie force users. Among all the force users that exist in Star Wars there is not one who can use the force limited as it may be so good as Obi Won there is a reason the chosen one was in a cybernetic suit, there is a reason there is no Grevious anymore.
Oh and I forgot about a non force sensitive that beats force users head to head top tier ones at that Grevious you can say that he is a cyborg with everything he has enhanced to a superhuman degree but he is still a non force sensitive. The list of force users that lost against him are this that I think are top tier:
Ki Adi Mundi
Shak Ti
and this ones got in a tie with him:
Obi Won
Mace Windu
Darth Maul
Yes if they had morals off or arrogance off they could have killed Grevious easier by force crushing them as Mace Windu did but they do not not have morals off they never did and never will the non force user with small exception do not fight emotionless opponents they fight ones with emotions of all kind that get in the way of doing the best and being most efficient they can be.
Obi Wan isn't what I mean when I claim top tier. Obi Wan is good, he's powerful, and he's skilled most certainly but against the likes of Sidious, Plagueis, Nihilus, Exar Kun, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, etc. He's small fry. Grievous doesn't compare to those mentioned either.
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Oh whatever. Star Wars is grown up in plenty of ways. Have you seen that mission near the beginning on Hutta? One of the first missions in the game if you're playing BH or IA. Not exactly a mission for kids, considering the choice you can make.
Also, there are plenty of characters in the class stories who show themselves to be much more than a caricature. Without going into spoilery detail, Nomen Karr comes to mind. As does Harron Tavus.
The moral system having some childish choices is, and has always been, fantasy indulgence to me. This is a game, not RL and not even a book. You're RPing a character who is not you and mad killer wizards with a lot of power and a ****ed up moral system have been part of SW from the beginning.
The bottom line is, any time you don't add certain types of decisions that have formerly been in the game, people are going to notice because there are people whose character identities revolve around playing out a scripted role. I'm sure many would love to play a "mature, human character," but the fact is, moral choice RPGs are just not built that way. The whole selling point is the moral conundrums and you can only write so much nuance while including decisions that are contrasted between brutality and sacrifice.
The day a game like this "grows up" in the way you seem to be imagining is the day it's no longer a moral choice RPG. At that point, I'm not sure what you'd even call it. Moral themes are a staple of RPGs, even in tabletops games, as far as I can tell. The only real difference with games like these is the lack of neutral-themed choices, but that's a matter of "it would be nice if more grayish choices were added," not "we need to remove the stuff that I don't find pleasant."
I think hiding base brutality does no one any favors. I've had all kinds of visceral emotional experiences playing such characters and usually along the lines of, "Holy ****, my character actually did that." Exploring base brutality through a game is a good way for people to understand it better on an emotional level, without doing violent or cruel things in RL. It's also just a nice way to let off steam sometimes. It's a fantasy, not a script for RL.
To play devil's advocate check World of Darkness for a game that prides itself on being morally grey. Where trying to uphold the moral high ground is usually a losing prospect that will eventually lead to death or at the very least ruin. A game where, with the right storyteller, you can start with a moral character and find yourself surprised a few months later how much your character has fallen and adjusted his personality in order to continue to function and survive. It's a great table top system but it isn't compatible with star wars. I think Zanya likes the idea behind star wars but doesn't like the reality of it.
Also to Red's prior post? EXACTLY. Punish us for our choices! Like Koth leaving but have more impact behind our choices. Allow more choices and more impacts. Allow me to kill Arcann. It doesn't matter if someone considers it "psychotic" (though at this point it's justified), maybe punish our character in the story somehow for it where if we kept him maybe another companion wouldn't die. A good example even though it plays no different in the story? Refusing the power the first time vs arcann and it leads to a hole in the stomach. This is the example of choices.
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I don't know how to break this to you, but you may be due for a rewatch of the OT, because Vader toyed with his own son in Empire and took a solid hit to the arm for his trouble.
And are we really gonna have this argument? We all know perfectly well what the answer is gonna be and why you're wrong. Do I really have to say it?
His son is Luke Skywalker who is most definitely force sensitive. Luke by ESB in both canons was beyond the average Jedi Knight during his fight with Vader.
As for Superman losing to batman? PIS, plot, etc. Superman's powers are very inconsistent. At one moment he completely ignores kryptonite and in another he gets floored by a pebble. The comics have become more consistent now and it's made clear Batman CANNOT beat Superman. Not with krpytonite. Can a non-force sensitive beat a powerful force user? I will be honest with you. It depends on the definition. If you mean destroying the ship they're on before they get aboard your ship? Sure. Luring them into a trap and dropping an orbital bombardment on them? Sure. A non-force sensitive is NOT beating a top tier force user in a 1v1 confrontation. Notice in the fight with arcann? Non-force sensitives are force sensitive now
P.S. When it comes to the EU Arcann doesn't compare to the top 10 force users. Yes, Vader caught palpatine by surprise. Someone clearly in the top 10 most powerful force users. He was able to, with the strength of his cybernetics combined with force augmentation, hold Palpatine and toss him into a reactor shaft. There's force sensitives who have absorbed Turbo lasers. Even if one was to catch them off guard with a blaster they'd ask, "What?" Vader has been shot in the head.
Stop bringing in other universes and how they work. Focus on Star Wars. As for the "You know how this debate works and you're wrong." Nope. Name an instance where a non-force sensitive with all their skill and prowess beats a top tier force user in a 1v1 confrontation head to head. Essentially Jango Fett vs Obi Wan which was actually a pretty good fight. Except.. you know against someone top tier.
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And it was stupid then, just as it would be stupid now. I mean seriously. For example: Why doesn't Baras fry your a*s with some lightening for a bit after you kill his slave that greets you at Dromund Kaas? You just destroyed your masters property for literally no reason. There is no reason you should get away with this, without at least some force ligtning in your stupid evil face.
I don't think I killed that guy even on my Dark 5 character. That's not the point. My character is a Sith, he has an entire list of accomplishments, accolades, and feats. If someone is going to walk up to him, insult him, berate him, and tell him "Oh that person you're recruiting will always be mine. You're merely borrowing him." he's going to put him in his place. Period. At the very least my Sith should be able to attempt beating his face in to show him exactly who he's dealing with. I mean, it's what just about any Sith would do. Dooku is more tame than most and I think this guy would even try his patience. Though, to be fair, Dooku would probably just send someone like Ventress to do it. Either way he'd make some effort to have him killed.
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What about that dark Jessa or Broonmark?
Dark Jaessa is obsessed with you. She never insults you as far as I re-call. Broonmark you fight and then he grovels at your feet. Despite that one of the biggest criticisms is not being able to kill him in the class story quests. People questioned the same thing on skadge etc. Originally you were able to but people whined that they had less companions than others so they made it so you couldn't kill your companions. During beta everyone was capable of being killed.
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Wait, since when is a character killing somone for simply insulting them, mature? THat would read more like a ''I'm so edgy, guys!" moment. THough we should of at least gotten an option to go ''Insult me again and I'll show you why I'm the one kicking Zakkul's ***"
You can kill people for less throughout the Sith storyline. My Sorcerer wouldn't have killed him for what he said, he's more intelligent than that, my Jedi Knight definitely wouldn't, neither would my consular, my Dark 5 Juggernaut? As mentioned, he killed people for less. I think he'd also take issue with the whole "You can have him but in the end he's still my student" thing. In the class stories, the original class stories, any npc who talked to you the way he did were kill-able for their actions.
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I love how you list a book series as an example of "mature" storytelling, and then go on to say you can't have a mature story if you can't choose the outcome-- like in a book.
Even better you list The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings as some kind of counter, when in reality it's almost as perfect a reiteration of my point as Harry Potter was. Hobbit was a simplistic tale for kids (the book, not the dumpster movie), and LotR introduced a lot of grown-up complexity and nuance, especially in regards to how everyone is flawed and imperfect. That's the entire reason Frodo couldn't carry the One Ring without Sam, and couldn't toss it without the help of providence/fate/God putting Gollum there too.
Except Lord of the Rings is still a very black and white story. Sauron's forces = Evil. The other side = Good for the most part. You don't see good orcs. You don't see good goblins. You most certainly don't see good Urak-Hai. I'm also not saying that if you can't make choices it's then not mature. I'm saying that for whatever reason Bioware is not allowing you make mature choices. There's a difference.
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All this just sounds like it's born out of insecurity over the idea that your magic evil knight isn't so invincible.
Here's the thing about having superpowers. You tend to rely on them, and when they can do as much as the Force, you rely on them for everything. Fighting from a constant position of advantage can make you cocky and arrogant, fighting from a disadvantage can make you desperate and creative.
That's not to say the BH and agent will always beat a high-level sith, but the can, it's possible.
The bold is the problem here. This essentially says "You might be able to win if they don't take you seriously." Therein lies the problem. A top tier force user who takes his opponents seriously isn't going to lose to a non-force sensitive. A non-force sensitive isn't beating someone Vader tier+.
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I noticed you are a pretty good writter so I have a question would the battle with Arcann would have been better if the cutscene was only with him on his knees with you ready to finish him?
That way we can fill the blank on how we beat him.
Probably yeah or instead of being lazy they could actually, instead of using blaster pistols only, show the classes using their class abilities. The trooper firing an electronet and some of his other gadgets? I could see that catching someone off guard. An agent running while firing luring arcann into a position where an orbital laser fires down on him creating an explosion, barely missing him, and rendering him helpless? That would also be good. Taking down someone like Arcann with a blaser pistol just makes him look sad.
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Like I said, Star Wars needs to grow up. It's long past due. One of the greatest examples of a creator who gets it is J.K. Rowling, because as her audience grew up, she introduced greater subtlety and even outright subverted a lot of the childish notions that were present in the earlier Potter books.
There's still plenty of room for simplistic good vs evil stories, especially for younglings discovering the franchise for the first time, but if you want to keep fans as they mature, then you need to provide a more subtle and grounded examination of the whole goodies and baddies thing.
The people who would fight against that the hardest are likely the ones who never grew up.
You can make a story black and white as well as mature. A good example? The hobbit vs The Lord of the Rings. Plus you can't really claim a story is mature when we have no say in the matter and can't make choices where we kill certain characters. Yes, the story is real mature. Which is why a sith juggernaut can't kill Satele Shan, Koth, or the Isaac guy as he outright insults us. Or how about Arcann? Senya?
You claim "Star wars doesn't know how to grow up" but we have comics where, for instance, a Sith outright explains how he crushed a room full of people's brains in order to kill them? With just a thought? Or the implications regarding Aboleth?
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Seriously, this. The BH takes on Jedi and Sith for a living. Heck, HK-47 supposedly murdered plenty of Jedi and he isn't even a living being. The Agent has the option of taking on the second most powerful wielder of the dark side in the galaxy at level 30.
Spoony did an episode of Counter Monkey where he related his adventures in the SW RPG where he played a non-force user and everyone laughed at him, until he started outright clowning Sith left and right through a combination of Batman-level preparation, and gadgets available in the splat-books (funny thing, lightsabers and robes don't work that well at blocking napalm, acid, and stun-spore grenades).
Except when you play said SW RPG game there's ways force users can outright ignore exactly what he did unless they house ruled a lot of crap. Jadus didn't want to kill the agent, if he did, he'd be dead because he could have simply popped a blood vessel in the agent's head instantly killing him or used force drain in which there'd have been no resistance for it. Here's the problem, even with planning, skill, and preparation can you beat someone before they can gesture towards you? Play a game with your friends and tell them "They got to beat you from a distance. They have to hit you with a sword, nerf dart, or what have you but if you gesture at them they die." Go. Now factor in you can see those darts in slow motion, you have something to knock them away, you can teleport, and move faster than their eyes can follow.
HK-47 beat low level sith/jedi. He would be one shotted against the likes of Revan. In fact, Vitiate gestured at him and he exploded. Pretty much what would happen to any non-force sensitive.
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Is this a completely different writing staff then the ones who wrote the story until well Shadow of Revan?
No idea to be honest. Whether they are or aren't wouldn't change anything. Sometimes good writers can write bad material. Take a look at some highly acclaimed long running series where it started out winning rewards and then becomes a nightmare of a mess by the end of the series.
As a whole when KOTFE there were people who bashed the story. Despite that there are more people who defended the story and genuinely liked it. By chapter 12 there were fewer and fewer people defending it. Fast forward to chapter 16 and you have the mass majority attacking the ending.
It started off with potential and then went bad.
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They do not want to believe that happened they either say that their opponent was a low tier force user or it was bad writing in case of IA vs Darth Jadus and BH and the 2 legendary jedi masters he defeated in his story they are coming with reasons that their old in case of this beast http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kellian_Jarro and http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jun_Seros_(Jedi).
And now with Valkorian giving him power the non force using Outlander is immune to force crush. force drain, force push at some extent, force pull even force lighting to some extent. So what reaming is force speed which is less effective as the non force using Outlander is also faster and all of them at their peak physical condition some even are cyborgs, togruta, twi'leks, cathars, zabraks who are quite a bit faster and stronger then the rest of the playable races.
Also if oyu watched the cutscenes you will all have noticed that a non force user with a blaster is a better combatant then a force user getting more hits on Arcann.
It's called bad writing. No excuses here. The writing is bad. I mean, look at all the people reviewing the last chapter. I tried to defend KOTFE many times. I have many posts defending it but there's no excuse here. Chapter 16 is terrible in terms of writing. Not only do choices not matter (aside from getting rid of koth or not.) but they actually deus ex machina your choices. You get to choose to kill Arcann twice but it has absolutely no effect. They offer your choices you can't even do. "Magical force weapons?" It just reeks. Plus Arcann having issues blocking some blaster bolts makes him worse than anyone on the B-team during the prequel trilogy.
Does this mean that non force using Outlanders....
in Spoilers
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I don't think Auto is complaining. We're just commenting on someone who claims "EU characters are too powerful and Disney is better because there's no Demi-god level goodguys/bad guys. Except.. there is.