Perlexia
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Posts posted by Perlexia
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Haha seriously? You do know that Revivification is horrendously imbalanced right? Shield melee before every pounce and reviv will comfortably heal up melee.
Don't get me wrong: I'd still replace those melee DPS with ranged to make the fight easier.
I don't play a sorc, but it didn't strike me as "horrendously imbalanced" before. It doesn't matter anyway, since this is only really a sideshow to the argument made.
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The mix of a raid's dps falls to the raid leader, not Bioware. Yes, Gharj's pounce does some nasty damage. Don't underestimate the power of Sith Sorc AoE heals with a sprinkling of Operative heals. It doesn't hurt that our melee isn't afraid to use thier own medpacks on cooldown or actually stand back a moment or two to avoid a pounce or use a defensive cooldown to help mitigate the damage.
Considering Soa can be moved (and must in phase 3), there's no reason your tank cannot keep him moving like ours does. He's only vulnerable for what? 20 seconds at a time in phase 3? Keep your melee spread out a bit to be nearer the mind traps then haul *** toward him just before your tank positions him to break that shield. Situational awareness of the lightning balls is just as critical to the ranged as it the melee. Thankfully they have a relatively small blast area so your people can move and still be within Soa's hitbox. I don't have a melee character above level 20 yet, but aren't the majority of their abilities instant (or near instant) save something like Force Choke.
Yes, the raid leaders get the classes they think are most beneficial to the raid. Especially if there is alot of wiping. Bioware sets the premises, and those are imbalanced atm.
You had me at "dont underestimate the power of sorc AOE healing". Gotta say, thats a good one. No way you can heal through Gharjs nightmare pounces with that. The knockback into the lava is just annoying, damage-wise it is pretty neglectable.
Didn't make the thread to discuss strategy though, I am aware that the encounters are not impossible with a melee heavy group, just alot harder. Which i dont think is right. Taht is my point
Your thought on SOA is completely flawed btw. Maybe you should play a melee character in that fight to understand what i mean.
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My guild is running EV on hard. We're blocked at the ancient pylons on nightmare as we can't get the last pattern to activate. I'm not seeing that much of a disparity on at least operations bosses between the ranged an melee dps.
1. XRRS (droid boss) : Melee stand behind him and are generally just fine and dandy. Range stay out of the frontal arc knockback. Everyone clumps together right in front of the boss during the missle barrage (yes, even on hard/nightmare). AoE heals go down, Snipers rotate their Barrier. All melee/ranged dps continue going at it. Just before barrage ends, melee scoots this rear, ranged scoots out of knockback attack range. Everyone avoids the targeted missles that appear under their character's feet as appriopriate. Rinse and repeat. Fairly even fight for my guild's ranged and melee dps.
2. Gharj : Melee dps stand behind him and dps at max range. He has a large hitbox. Ranged stand near each island's edge. Melee does get hit with damage but ranged has to deal with being knocked back and traversing the lava. Without combat logs, I'm not sure if the melee dps or all ranged (dps and healers) take more damage. The knockbacks do interfere with cast timers and will remove gunslingers/snipers from cover. Seeing how that is pretty much the whole fight, the melee might have a slight edge on dpsing the boss but they probably do take more overall damage. It's not unheable nor are our healers hurting for energy/force/heat on this fight.
3. Pylons : A bunch of standard mobs and the occasional elite. Ranged has an advantage here only if the melee haven't figured out that the mobs spawn at the same place each time. It can also favor the ranged dps depending on who has to click the consol next. (No debuff on normal, 20 seconds(?) on hard, 40 secodns on nightmare). Melee do get shafted if the guardians are allowed to cast their reflective barriers.
4. Council (can't remember exact name) : Fairly even between ranged and melee. This fight boils down to whom is assigned to kill who. It's a 1 vs 1 for everyone with limited outside help (at least at the beginning).
5. Soa : From my guild's experience, this is a fairly even fight that only favors ranged dps at the end targeting mind traps. Phase 1 is a tank 'n spank that everyone can max dps. Phase 2 isn't much different as we keep melee dps on Soa unless a mind trap is within a short travel time (i.e. 10 m vs 25m+). Ranged focus on the mind traps first, then Soa. Everyone is constantly moving to avoid the lightning orbs. Our tank generally moves Soa if orbs look to be congregating on melee. Phase three isn't too much different. Melee do help range kill mind traps more, but move to the bosses general area just before his immunity shield is broken that way they don't lose any time on dpsing the boss.
Kraggas Palace : I do see an imbalance here in favor of ranged. If the melee are clumped, they can't tell who the rancor is going to swipe as easily as a ranged class will when the rancor focus on said range dpser. The adds seem to "show up" on the screen before they really do so everyone is more than capable of getting in range of them. The earthquake attacks mess everyone up bad on hard.
TDLR : But these are only observations made from my guild running normal, hard, and nightmare flash points. Positioning and strategy play a difference in perceived advantages and disadvantages of melee dps and ranged dps as illustrated above.
Missing the point. Yes, strats do help, but there is still a disparity. SOA is a ***** with a melee heavy setup, there is no way arguing against that. Also, you are telling me you let your melee get pounced by gharj on nightmare? you must have the best healers in the game.
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It's the reason I picked a ranged DPS class... ranged classes are better FP/dungeon/Raid/Operations classes... in every game. If you didn't know that then I'm sorry, but there are workarounds. Don't ask for a ranged nerf or a melee buff, that's just annoying. You will have you role in every group, and it will probably be to take down adds and such. As a melee you should have higher defense or dodge chance or whatever it is in this game. If you want even more DPS you will be OP.
Again, Ranged DPS are not better in every game for every encounter. A certain game that has a vast array of tools to measure damage disproves this. Also, it is inevitable that both groups (ranged vs. melee) have advantages on certain encounters, but never it should never be case, that one group is always at the bigger disadvantage, which is the case right now. There simply is no drawback to stacking ranged on ANY encounter right now.
I was hoping this thread would not derail into a buff/nerf argument either, since there are more elegant solutions to solving this dilemma: Better and more balance encounter design. However I believe, granting melee some more mobility wouldn't hurt so much, I believe a buff could be a sensible action to alleviate the problem discussed here.
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So since I assume you have not played a ranged class in this game yet or even most likely cleared most of the hard mode flash points and ops I will say this.
When bosses such as the first boss in EV and HK in False emperor use targeted abilities on the ground do you have to run around being able to do almost 0 damage? I would hope the answer to that is no, because if you have any skill you would just run around the boss still attacking while ranged who generally have to stand and cast can't.
Until you have played every roll in every situation you have no idea what other people are going through. Coming to the forums to complain that you don't feel like you are top dps doesn't seem very helpful for the state the game is currently in.
You are completely besides the point. This thread is not about being "top dps".
It is about a serious imbalance in some encounters, not all of course, where stacking ranged DPS makes one encounter trivial, while you might fail repeatedly on it with melee DPS without some more eloborate strategy and a considerable effort. That is the issue. This is an incentive to invite ranged DPS over melee. And this is happening already, I can tell you as someone who likes to lead raids.
Your examples are also weak. Those 2 mechanics are hardly just affecting ranged, and in any case, they are very manageable for a raid. But since you brought it up, for the first boss in EV: Ever thought about the fact that Ranged can just camp at the turrets, while melee have to run all the way to hide from the missile salvo and back again? Even worse, for hard mode/nightmare, you might want Ranged DPS just burning him still when he is doing the salvo, and have the healers heal through it. Guess what...melee can't do **** at the time, while ranged make it alot easier to beat the enrage timer.
Instead consider the encounters I mentioned in my 1st post, it is a completely different story: Try doing Final Boss Boarding Party HM with 2 Melee DPS in blue gear: A total nightmare. Then do it again with 2 equally geared ranged DPS. I dont even wanna talk about SOA hardmode/or nightmare again, because its just so blatantly obvious there
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Expertise costs zero secondary stats so that's a null point. The same level pve gear will have the equivalent defense rating. I'll just be thankful my healer isn't you since you seem to be lacking in the hps area if you can't keep a champion geared tank up.
Except that expertise costs primary stats......
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I'm just going to touch up on your boss fights you listed...
-Boarding Party Last Boss: If you do the strat where you pull the Chief out of range of the Commando your melee wont be bothered. When you kill the Chief and you go to kill the Commando everyone will take dmg, that's what defensive CD's and healers are for.
-Khel Thrak Second Boss Ilum: When his shield goes up he becomes immune, correct? That means he's immune to taunts too. So if your ranged just carelessly continue to DPS they can end up pealing the boss off the tank and he hurts non-tanks a lot.
-Gharj Second Boss EV: I can't believe you had the guts to bring this up ROFL. Ranged don't have to worry about anything? How about the fact that they get knocked back into lava and have to run through it and get back in position?
-SOA Last Boss EV: Ranged have to move around a lot too. Lightning Balls, Mind traps on the other side of the room. Granted melee do have to move a little more whats the big deal? The strat we use is we like to keep the melee on the boss as much as possible and let the ranged take care of mind traps. They're easy to kill and by the time a melee runs over to it it's already 3/4 of the way dead.
I know all this. The point still stands: Why should it be harder for melee DPS? Sure, you can optimize your strat, but you still wont hit the DPS that you would have with all ranged DPS. Regarding gharj, i dont think you have experienced his pounce on nightmare, where it becomes an issue. The knockback is just a nuisance.
Additionally, in hard/nightmare, enrage timers also become an issue, and guess what, its noticably easier with all ranged. Very easy to notice with the gear levels right now.
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Range mechanics are negligible, on almost all encounters you can outheal or simply not move and do maximum DPS. Nearly every mechanic for melee will result in immediate death if not avoided. Range is better in almost every encounter (pve) and some (pvp) in the game.
Exactly, right now the best setup would be just to stack ranged dps and just faceroll every encounter.
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The movement issue is why melee classes generally tend to do more damage since they have less uptime on a target. As I mentioned before, other MMOs have made their boss fights more melee-friendly. Maybe 7 years ago this wasn't the case but it's certainly the case now in the most popular MMOs.
There is no reason to accept that melee should be significantly more difficult to play when encounters really can be made to accommodate them better.
I absolutely agree, thats the point I am making. They alleviated this on a couple of items:
- balanced DPS to account for increased movement/position requirement of melee DPS
- smarter and more balanced encounter design
- utilities for melee to get back into the fight quick: movement abilities, self-healing, AE avoidance
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This problem has existed in almost every MMO that has ever been out, if not exactly all of them.
The issue has always been hard to solve, and that's why most people roll ranged classes. Melee classes always have and always will require more focus and effort than ranged classes, there's simply no way around it.
Instead of just saying "there is no way around it", how about discussing some of the examples I have given. If, for example, you made Jorlands PBAoE ability have a minimum range, then you might actually beat the encounter with 2 melee, when they have not all epics. How is that "no way"?
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Really though it's just a problem with MMO's in general. SWTOR does it a little better than some because most (most) melee dps have some ranged abilities too. That's partially why I like playing an operative so much. Stab it to death, then when it AOE's back up to range, go into cover and pew pew it till it stops.
You obviously haven't played Wow or SWTOR at all.
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I thought we solved this argument in WoW general forums 7 years ago...
Stop with that point already, just because this issue might have existed in WoW also, doesnt mean its not an issue still, and should be addressed. Or should we just roll over?
Infact tho, I was a member in a rather successful raiding guild in WoW, and the truth is that skilled rogues and warriors were on par with ranged in terms of DPS, because yes, their DPS while on target was slightly higher, which evens out because they have to move around more and position themself. Additionally, again, warriors and rogues had more abilities (not just gap closers, but self-healing, evasion, etc. talents) to alleviate the effect of AE damage. So stop with it already.
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Not really it is a troll who posts topics that can't be changed
You either have no ranged classes (which will never happen) or you nerf ranged classes completely (which again will never happen)
Every single game has this issue, EVERY game
At least this game has some gap closers and longer then melee range abilities for melee that other games do not
Just one example: Make the Boardings Party Final Boss Missile PBAoE spell have a minimum targeting range. Issue fixed. Mechanic intended still in palce: Ranged can not stack up.
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Congratz on making the same exact post that someone makes on every single gaming board in every single game
Did you expect this to be any different in this game?
Really?
A troll accusing me of trolling, while I think I have made some good points. If only people would actually discuss the issue instead of posting worthless junk like this.
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I honestly think they're about on par with every other MMO on launch. When I browse during the work day I am often filled with disgust and think "this is a new low" then I remember every other mainstream forum on launch, this is about par for course and honestly cleaning up faster than most I think.
As far as the OP's point, I get the feeling he is actually wrong in SWTOR but there is no parsing system so neither of us have the numbers to back our opinions up. Melee DPS seems to hit plenty hard in this game, certainly in PvP and I imagine just as much in PvE. I often feel in just about every MMO I've played that melee is the underdog, I get that feeling less here than I have in most games.
Note: I am not advocating a parsing system, I do not particularly want one to be honest.
I get your point, and it is true that we have no solid data yet, but: Every raid/group leader who has tried those encounters above with a melee DPS-heavy setup, knows what im talking about. The encounters are considerably harder, and I believe this shouldn't be the case. So from your post, I gather that you haven't tried the hard-mode FPs and Ops yet, maybe you should wait to see those in such a group.
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This issue is in every MMO of it's type. The answer is, if you don't feel you are good enough to move out of the fire and such, then maybe you should play a class more suited to your abilities.
I know it sounds harsh, but it is in fact the truth.
That's what im arguing against tho. It wasnt as extreme in every other MMO. WoW had this problem initially, but they alleviated it by smart encounter design and changing the classes up. It is not only a problem of avoiding damage too, but more importatnly that melee DPS on mentioned fights is CONSIDERABLY lower.
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Play Jedi Sage and say that again....
Very constructive...
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I thought I'll bring this up here, since it has been really bothering me lately. Hopefully developers (Hello Georg!) will read this, and this will be addressed. In short:
Ranged DPS as of right now have massive advantages over Melee DPS in a number of encounters, especially in HM FPs and Ops, whereas the opposite is never the case. While this can be argued for other games too, I feel its excessive in this game, making some encounters considerably harder, i.e. when you have 2 melee DPS in the group, and giving incentive to raid leaders to just get range DPS.
1. Melee are much more subjected to AOE abilities on several encounters, while Ranged DPS can avoid it easily in many cases. Sure, many AOE abilities are avoidable for melee by having them run out or spread out, but that leads us to point 2:
2. Trying to avoid AOE abilities for melee DPS by running out causes their sustained DPS to drop off relatively to Ranged DPS.
Here are just 3 examples, I am sure there are many more.
Example 1:Boarding Party HM Final bossThe Commander's missile puts melee DPS at a much greater disadvantage, due to the fact that they have to stand closer together and cant really spread out from each other to avoid the AE damage.Example 2:Khel Thrak (2nd boss Battle of Ilum)Same thing as in example 1, with his shield probe ability. I am aware melee should avoid hitting him when he gets the buff, but ranged DPS dont really have to worry about ever taking that damage. Secondly, moving away from him when the adds spawn is another burden that Ranged DPS dont have to deal with, at all. This gives them an advantage on damage dealt as well.Example 3:Gharj (2nd Boss Eternity Vault)His pounce ability is not that critical, but it still serves as an example of: Melee DPS have to eat dmg, while Ranged DPS do not. Because Ranged DPS do not have to run out, they have higher sustained DPS because of melee DPS travel time.Example 4:SOA (Final Boss Eternity Vault)The very design of the fight (especially on middle & bottom platform) requires alot of running around and switching targets. Again, because of their longer travel time (even with current mobility abilties) gimp their DPS noticably. Additionally, the lightning balls are much more dangerous for melee DPS than for ranged DPS, due to the fact that they are forced to stand much closer together, while ranged can spread.To alleviate this i can think of several solutions. I am aware that these bring along other balance issues in PVP. They are only suggestions, and there is more discussion required:
- Give melee dps higher DPS which should even out sustained DPS over a fight, because they cant DPS some bosses for the same duration than ranged can.
- Increase their mobility
- Give them some sort of AOE mitigation.
And the best solution: Encounter Design that has this issue in mind.
!Big Concern!: Ranged vs. Melee DPS in FPs & Ops
in Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Posted
You are right, but I have said a couple of times in the thread, that the best solution would probably be more thoughtful encounter design. Just isnt in the 1st post.