[What will be the intended effect of the new Warding relict?]

It's amusing to me how people keep denying the math for absolutely no reason. It reminds me of when I tutor calculus.

 

Some people are questioning the viability of the new relics in PvP, since it is far less predictable than Operations. In my opinion, the reactive warding relic is even more valuable in PvP. In PvP, there are far more attacks that cannot be dodged or shielded. Many specs, especially DOT based ones, deal mostly internal and elemental damage, against which shielding and dodging have no effect. Also, the long 40 second lockout is less of a handicap in PvP, due to the frequent downtime between short fights in the average match. Obvious exceptions to this would be when carrying the ball in Huttball, and Ranked Arenas. In these two situations there is so much damage being focused on you (or your guarded target) for such a potentially long period of time that the mitigation provided by the other relics may surpass that of Reactive Warding.

[Resolve changes - are you even listening?]

More time being stunned. What's not to love right? I mean rather than having Pugs learn to play, we now get to ha e coordinated teams effectively stunlock players through coordination. Well done Bioware.

 

Ok, could those of you who are doomsaying explain where you are getting the idea that you will be stunned for longer? They said that overlapping stuns won't build as much resolve. If the stuns are overlapping, then you aren't getting stunned for longer. For players who know what they're doing (who don't waste a stun on an already stunned target), this won't change anything.

[Imperial PvPers Vs. Republic PvPers]

After launch, most players decided to do republic over sith thus creating an imbalance in population.

"Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder!" -Bender Bending Rodriguez

 

Either your server is an incredible exception to the rule, or you haven't been playing the game very long. Early on, the Empire outnumbered the Republic on nearly every server to a staggering degree. For example,

A quick Youtube search will get you a dozen more videos just like that one from multiple servers.

[Trooper's Ammo vs Bounty Hunter's Heat]

No, the principle still stands though, attacks build less heat and in turn keeps your ammo regen slightly higher under certain situations and again over the period of a long fight boosts your actually resource to use and in turn dps output.

By what logic is the heat build-up "less" than the ammo consumption? If you are talking about the percentage of your resource bar, it's irrelevant unless you are using up all your resources at once, which no one in their right mind would do except for emergencies. Even in such an emergency, that extra 4 heat is equivalent to only half an ammo unit anyway.

[Trooper's Ammo vs Bounty Hunter's Heat]

On my Troopers there is 12 'ammo' blocks, on the BHs there's 100 'heat' points, and the resource management in a fp/pvp on the merc is far easier to judge as I can see how fast I;m regening, if I need to slow down/speed up or adjust to compensate compared to my commando as well as I'm able to see how much of the previous skills heat built up dissipates one the rotations. One of the problems with ammo is that you can't see when one is about to regenerate, even if they made the bar so it showed parts of ammo blocks LIKE heat that regenerates, instead of full ammo blocks then that would be ok as we could judge it. But I can easily pump out more dps on my Merc than I can on my commando at this level simply because I can handle resource management more efficiently and accurately.

I have no idea why you think this makes a difference. If it regenerates at an equivalent rate, why does it matter? If anything, I find ammo easier because its discrete nature makes it easier to tell exactly how much of my resource bar will be used up by a given ability.

All the other commando/vang players I have talked to basically agree that ammo should add up and work the same as heat, and as a matter of direct inbalance, if both classes spammed their Missle Blast/Explosive Round non-stop to run out of ammo, at the end Bounty Hunters have 3/100 heat left compared to a troopers 0/12 ammo, and over the course of a whole EC HM, that is effectively 3% more resource we can use and in turn 3% more dps.

You spam attacks until you run out of resources in EC HM? Are you serious? If you actually manage your resources in EC HM properly, there is no difference. Also, bounty hunters would have 4 heat left, not 3, if you assume no heat venting occurs.

[Do commandos _have_ to use assault cannons?]

This discussion over hail of bolts is irrelevant. Blaster rifles do less damage than assault cannons for all weapon damage abilities.

[jugg tanking is beyond frustrating]

How the hell am I supposed to get 6 mobs that are spread all over the place on me, when I struggle to keep one guy on me for more than a few gcd's at a time?

You're not supposed to, regardless of which tank you are. CC's should be going out, and the DPS should be easily able to take out the weaker ones on their own. If you're in a situation where you need to be holding threat on 6 mobs at once, someone else isn't doing their job.

[Is the sniper rifle necessary?]

I don't know for sure, but I believe it works on the same principle as armor. You can put the same armoring in medium or heavy armor, but the heavy armor will give you greater damage reduction. The same goes for putting the same barrel in a blaster rifle versus a sniper rifle, only for damage instead of damage reduction. I'm willing to bet the same goes for assault cannons as well, since both snipers and commandos are mirrors of duel wielding classes.

[Tanks and somethings they may not tell you]

If the healer has guard, that's 50% less damage that they take until you get stuff on you.

 

you people who are trying to be cool and saying you should never guard the healer, you don't know *** you're talking about.

I love the irony of these two "sentences" being in the same post. The 50% damage transfer only works in PvP, and has always been that way. I'd also like to point out that this is the only part of guard that has a limited range. The damage and threat reduction aren't restricted to 15 meters.

 

Guard the melee DPS. They are the ones most likely to steal threat, and also the most likely to take damage. It really is that simple. If a healer has threat on anything, ever, then the others simply aren't doing their jobs properly.

[Tanking Firebrand and Stormcaller, A question.]

You must not play a Shadow lol... the Combat Stealth thing is a 3 minute cooldown and reduces healing received by 99% for 10 seconds afterwards. A guildy of mine (also a shadow tank) tried to say that "Vanish" was a defensive Cooldown and we pretty much laughed him out of mumble.

I'm well aware that it's on a 3 minute cooldown, which is why I specifically said "or use your cooldowns to just take it." Please read my posts in their entirety before assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

Like I already said, I've never even used that strategy, because it's needlessly complex and wastes cooldowns that could be saved for emergencies. It's just a strategy that other shadows have said works for them.

[A very interesting SWTOR review with constructive criticism]

I lost all respect for that guy's opinion the moment he said that Star Wars fans would have been happier if Endor was in the game. Endor, really?

 

A majority of the commentary is the guy demanding his own personal vision of Star Wars, rather than a good game. What's wrong with Rakghouls? What's wrong with inventing new stuff for Star Wars, rather than rehashing the same stuff over and over again?

 

For goodness sake, he is literally asking for infinite companion conversations! How could anyone take this guy seriously?

[Explaining Vanguards Aggro...]

Battle focus? Really? I don't think I ever used that skill as a tank. Ever. But I'll check and see how it goes!

It boosts your damage (and therefore threat), costs nothing, and is off the global cooldown. Why on earth wouldn't you use it? It's funny how many people forget this ability.

[remove heals from dps commano]

I wanna add that I think TTK is to low atm for sages AND commandos...we are arguing against each other but on the same side. The issue is you're making it a comparison vs. commando when it should be a comparison vs. sentinel and vanguard which are the top performing ACs atm. Sages are middle of the field and commando DPS (gunnery for sure) is at the bottom of the barrel. My gunslinger in recruit gear has a longer ttk than my commando specced dps in BM/WH with similar damage numbers...there is a class imbalance.

As I've stated before, I don't disagree with the idea that commandos aren't performing as well as DPS without off-heals. I was just saying that all the off-heal DPS classes are below par by about the same amount. I do agree that Bioware is overestimating the value of off-heals in PvP, but I don't think that commando is being punished for it more than the other two. I think part of the problem is that off-heals can be extremely useful at times in PvE, and Bioware admittedly doesn't want to balance around PvP.

Please don't make it sound like I did it on purpose. I was editing when you were replying. Then I responded to your reply.

That wasn't my intent, but I can see how one could interpret it that way. I apologize.

Just tested on both the commando and vanguard. You are correct about it reapplying itself. It ticks once at the initial application (second 1) and applies the snare for second 1-2 and 2-3 and then ticks again on the third second for damage and reapplies the snare for second 3-4 and 4-5 then it ticks for damage on the 6th second. I stand corrected. This is good knowledge to have so assault commando can try to slip in another rotation attack before the snare effect expires.

A lot of the threads asking about that last tick applying a slow are quite old, so I'm starting to think it's intentional. Regardless, I think they should fix it so that it does apply the slow for the last tick, it seems like even something that small could go a long way to improve your ability to kite.

 

That post is a doozy, Archangel, I'm going to have to come back later for that one!

[remove heals from dps commano]

Indisputable - beyond doubt, unquestionable, unarguable

 

You have not played commando...Indisputable

Then why did you say that nothing you said was indisputable? This means that there is some doubt in everything you said.

You think Commando has better defensive tools than a sage. In the current state of the game this isn't true. Defensive means abiltiy to stay alive...and sages currently have better tools to stay alive at every level of pvp than a commando does. Sure standing still Commandos will live longer vs. certain classes than a sage due to armor. Put all the defensive tools that a sage has into effect and the sage will live longer more than 5 times out of 10..the sage has better defensive tools...indisputable.

That is highly disputable. The very fact that we are having this conversation proves that.

 

Also, I just noticed that you edited one of your posts after I made a response. I'm glad I caught it though, because it proves which one of us is more of an "expert."

This is the perfect example for lack of knowledge. Plasma cell dot lasts 6 seconds...the snare lasts 2 seconds and will snare every time it is reapplied not every tick of the dot. So when it applies you get a 2 second snare. If the abilities fail to refresh the dot then the snare does not take effect on every tick.

This is flat out wrong. I'm getting so sick of people accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about when they could take only a few seconds to check for themselves. I just tested it, and it refreshes at the second tick. However, it does seemed to be bugged so that the last tick doesn't apply the slow. A quick search of the forums shows that a lot of people are confused as to whether or not this is intentional.

 

As of right now here's how it works:

Plasma cell is applied, and the first tick, along with the slow, is applied instantly.

After two seconds, the slow disappears.

After three seconds, it ticks again and the slow is reapplied.

After five seconds, the second slow disappears.

After six seconds, plasma cell ticks once more and the DOT disappears (but no slow is applied).

 

If you don't believe me, search the forums, or better yet, try it yourself. It's too little too late though, since you've lost all credibility now. I'm still waiting to hear how I was "corrected on my misconceptions," or what "sage forums" have to do with anything.

[remove heals from dps commano]

Now you're just trolling. You are the one that was wrong about commando vs. sage kiting skills. Rather than admit you lack knowledge you attack.

How was I wrong? In case you didn't notice, I did admit that I wasn't an expert. You attacked first, I was just defending myself.

You have been corrected on your misconceptions multiple times in these forums.

Examples, please.

Nothing I wrote was indisputable so you decide to attack me.

Nothing you wrote was indisputable? I'm not sure of your intended meaning here. If what you wrote is debatable, why would that be a reason to "attack" you?

[remove heals from dps commano]

Er no.

 

6 seconds is the minimum lockout for HiB.

That's what I meant, that's why I said "off cooldown" instead of "on cooldown." It's still very poor wording though, so sorry for the confusion.

I believe I said I don't comment on the SAGE FORUMS. These are the commando forums. I have played a sage to 30...not 50 so I am familiar with their abilities. So I feel I can comment on those abilities in the commando forum. Where as you have yet to play a commando and it does not seem to stop you from being an expert.

So it's ok to express opinions on classes you haven't played, as long as it's in a different part of the forum? That makes no sense. How are the validity of one's opinions suddenly different based on where the post is made? The funny thing is, if you had simply said that I lack credibility due to not playing a commando, I would have agreed with you. It's the fact that you get to "act like an expert" on sages while criticizing me for doing the same with commandos that I have a problem with. I admit that I'm not an expert on commandos, but at least I'm not a hypocrite.

[Tanking Firebrand and Stormcaller, A question.]

My guild always switches, regardless of the tanks we have. You may not have a leap, but force speed is just as fast. Granted, it is a tiny bit harder to jump on the tank manually, but it's not exactly rocket science. Cleave is not much of an issue, since they don't cleave very soon after incinerate armor anyway. I prefer tank swapping because it improves threat generation on both tanks and the leaps give bonuses to both guardians and vanguards. As a shadow, you could also stealth, let a DPS take incinerate armor, and then taunt back, or use your cooldowns to just take it.

 

If your way works for your group though, by all means, keep using it.

[remove heals from dps commano]

Balance Sage's problem is not that they can't do their job since their kiting ability combined with non activation time DoTs totally allows them to do that job. It's that their damage DOES come from DoTs and their burst isn't very good (a perfectly viable complaint), so what they can do is not really wanted in PVP because with a good healer it's mostly fluff damage. Commando's complaint is that we don't have the tools to do our job and depend on not getting noticed.

This is sort of the point that I tried to make originally, that commandos and sages have different, but roughly equal weaknesses.

It's relevant in the same way old Project animation was relevant. If the actual root effect doesn't apply till they actually land from the knocked back (starting the clock on the effect), then the fact that the knockback is on the GCD doesn't matter because the GCD will be over before they land allowing them to get off a cast before that 2s is up. The old project issue (where people could actually LOS the damage because the animation took so long) is what leads me to believe this is the case.

I just tested this on my sorcerer's training dummy, and it appears that the damage occurs somewhere in the middle of the GCD, so I'm assuming that's when the knockback occurs as well. I might test this further some time on a live target. I know for a fact that the root is applied as soon as the person is hit, and not when they land. The electric bindings animation is clearly visible as you fly through the air when a sorcerer knocks you back. The sage one is more a more subtle animation, but I suppose we're kind of deviating from the topic again.

Clearly though my kiting skills aren't what they really could be so maybe it's just a L2P issue.

I wouldn't say that. You clearly have the knowledge required, so at most you just need to hone your skills. (Although I'm probably not one to talk, I admit that I'm not the greatest PvP player in any class.)

To everyone else: This has been mostly a civil discussion (thanks to BlastingGravy for that) so let's try to keep it that way eh?

Yes, I would very much like to thank you for that as well. It's so nice to chat with someone with a touch of humanity and intelligence on these forums. Know that you have earned my respect, regardless of whether we agree or not.

 

Since our discussion is getting kind of stale, I'd like to ask something. Assuming that commandos are indeed under-performing in PvP, what changes would you suggest to improve them (or perhaps all off-heal DPS)?

[remove heals from dps commano]

I guess this is a measure of your credibility on this forum then. Someone that hasn't played the class providing advice and feedback on the class. I havn't played a sage to 50 yet...I don't comment on their forums due to lack of knowledge playing the class in the level 50 bracket.

 

Sage shield + force speed + talented options > commando defensive shield...not seeing how you think we have better defensive abilities...unless you're refering to our armor...which BW has already said is underperforming.

 

I find it ironic that you say my opinions on the commando lack credibility since I haven't played one, admit that you haven't played a sage, and then immediately give your opinions on the sage in PvP. I fail to see how your opinions on classes you haven't played are somehow better than mine.

[remove heals from dps commano]

And I still feel incredibly easy to kill even if both of them were easier to kill. This whole side discussion still seems like an argument to buff all three classes.

I actually kind of agree with this assessment. I was only trying to make the point that commando was no worse than the other off-heal capable DPS. I think there is at least some truth to the idea that all three aren't on par with other DPS classes (in PvP anyway).

Maybe they have good survival tips. Can you ask them what they do about survivability?

I'll ask when I get the chance. One thing I do know is extremely valuable to them is reflexive shield.

Most of the GCD for Sage's is taken up in the animation (arguably a double edged sword for them!).

I'm not sure how this is relevant, it's just an animation.

Project has a 6s cooldown and is much more likely to be up (in the TK tree I don't think Project is even a normal part of their rotation.) Also if their procs have worked out they can make Telekinetic Wave instant. Better chances for good instants is my point.

You're right, project isn't a normal part of their rotation, which makes it no more useful than hammer shot. Disturbance (a 1.5 second cast) has a 30% chance of giving you an instant telekinetic wave, which is a much worse situation than with your HIB proc. That's why I don't PvP on my sorcerer, I like the lightning tree for PvE, but it's the worst PvP spec in the game.

Really? Learn something new every day. I'm either cleansing the DoT or too busy too look at my bar to notice that the slow is reapplying. Are you quite sure about this? Not the impression I get from all the QQ on the PVP forums, I suppose this would be easy enough to check on the Training Dummy, and until I know for sure otherwise I'll operate under the assumption that you're correct about it refreshing though I'll assume it ends when the plasma cell ends.

Yes, in fact on my combat sentinel in Huttball yesterday I used force camo, which in the combat tree removes all movement-impairing effects, but since the DOT itself wasn't removed, I was immediately slowed again.

Certainly that makes getting Plasma Cell on target a larger priority, but we still have no reasonable certainty of getting it on till we can Hammer Shot. Even Full Auto only has a 40% chance or so to apply the DoT if my understanding is correct (84% chance to not proc cubed for all 3 ticks of FA is a ~59.27% to not proc. Probability not my area though).

With three ticks, that is correct. I should check how many ticks hammer shot has, I've never bothered to count due to how quickly they pop up.

Much more probable to kite, though it still doesn't solve the self rooting issue if you want to reset HiB with Charged Bolts on a regular basis.

As I said before, you can kite, but not as effectively as a sage. But my point is that you don't need to do it as much as a sage, because you have better defenses. Kiting is pretty much all sages have to defend themselves.

[remove heals from dps commano]

I disagree with this completely. From a DPS perspective it sure as hell doesn't feel like they're any harder to kill. Like at all.

Well, from the perspective of a both a Tank and DPS fighting commandos, I "feel" like they are harder to kill because of their heavy armor. I suppose that there's no point debating this since it keeps coming back to what people "feel."

You can deny the second HiB to them.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

I'll address this in full at the end, but seriously the kiting tools on assault commando just aren't all that. Do you play commando? If so I'd love to see some good kiting tips for Assault Commando (not sarcasm btw. Please enlighten us).

No, I haven't tried a commando yet, but I've played with (as in partied with) and against more than enough commandos to know what they are capable of.

Especially since Assault Commandos have to save their knockback for interrupting things like Master Strike.

Cryo grenade works fine for this.

Then you're quite frankly wrong and I don't know what to tell you. Vanguards are fine. They have really good damage and some good team utility with grapple and taunts, but that's about it. They just don't fold like a cheap card table but that's because they can win the DPS race with pretty much anyone (the AoE melee range stun is the only real extra defensive ability they get). We both win or die, but commandos die more than they win (unless we're being ignored) while Vanguards win more than they die. At best it's a problem with commandos being underpowered AND vanguards being overpowered.

I'm confused as to why you say Vanguards are fine and then immediately follow by saying that they can beat anyone in DPS. What exactly balances out the fact that they are the highest DPS class in the game?

Depending on the cast you can get two casts off (cast something with like a 1.5s cast time, or use project, and the damage will land before the 2s is up), maybe three if you can get another cast off before they get back to you. Commando just gets the maybe one cast before they get back to you.

You're forgetting that knockbacks trigger the global cooldown. So by the time you've casted your 1.5 second cast, 3 seconds will have passed. Yes, you could get off an instant, but it's no different for a commando.

Additionally while Plasma Cell's DoT last 6 seconds, the snare which is the part we're discussing, only lasts for 2 seconds.

Yes, 2 seconds, after every tick. This means that they are slowed for the duration, perhaps a little longer. (Although I do believe that most DOTs in TOR have a brief moment between application and the first tick.)

[Explaining Vanguards Aggro...]

Here's what I do on bosses.

Harpoon>Battle Focus (off cooldown)>Storm>Stockstrike>Ion pulse and energy blast until at full stacks of power screen>explosive surge

 

Open with harpoon for the immediate threat, and since you can't use it once you're in close. I highly recommend using battle focus immediately afterwards for the extra damage and threat boost. Using the free explosive surges right after storm is a complete waste. You want to save them for after you've used some ammo in order to give it time to regenerate. They don't do that much damage to single targets anyway, so you should prioritize harder hitting attacks to make the most of your battle focus, and build threat quickly.

[remove heals from dps commano]

Believe it or not, heavy armor just isn't that much of an advantage, especially not with the many skills and abilities which either bypass armor entirely, or allow classes to gain significant amounts of armor penetration. People always seem surprised when we say that heavy armor just isn't all that. It doesn't allow us to facetank anything for significantly longer than the other healing classes, but we don't get the escapes they do (disappearing act and force speed).

Yea, armor isn't quite as useful as it sounds at first glance. Even Bioware admits that they might need to reevaluate how armor and defense works given how much can bypass them. It's still significant enough to make you much harder to kill than a sage or scoundrel though.

Scoundrels get Dodge (nullifies the biggest part of the burst from Assault Vanguards/ Pyro PTs, probably takes quite a bit of skill to use this way), and Defense Screen. Would you care to comment on the overall effectiveness of Defense Screen? It sure SOUNDS better than Energy Shield which is a flat 25% DR for 12 seconds, but it could, likely is, limited in how much damage it absorbs. Our other defensive cool down is Adrenaline Rush which frankly isn't all that good, any heavy DPS is going to out DPS Adrenaline Rush.

You'd have to get pretty lucky to time dodge that perfectly, given that HIB is an instant. Pop it too early, and the PT will know to wait until it ends. It is, however, extremely useful against master strike. Defense screen is complete garbage. It is instantly destroyed any time I use it in PvP on my Operative healer.

I already mentioned Disappearing Act and Vanish, but sage in particular has that great kiting ability while still doing damage through DoTs and that is absolutely a form of survivability.

The same applies to an assault commando, although I admit that the sage is still better.

Commandos are like Vanguards in that our only real escape is to kill our opponent. We win or we die. Vanguards do this better though since their abilities to reset HiB are all instant, and Neural Surge can really buy them some time to get their damage out. If Full Auto doesn't proc IA then we're stuck with Charged Bolts which has a 2s cast time (1.5s if you spec into muzzle fluting in the Gunnery Tree), which suffers from the same problems Grav Round has as far as being shutdown.

I totally agree. However, I see it as a problem with assault spec vanguards being overpowered, rather than commandos being underpowered.

The ability to spec their knockback to root their opponents is huge for sages who need time to cast. Don't think it isn't. I'll trade the second knockback talented on stockstrike for that alone, and sages get a baseline snare.

The snare breaks on damage after 2 seconds, so you will get one cast. A 4 second slow sounds just as good to me, and you don't have to spec into it. I suppose it would be better if your plan is to run away.

I think this is showing your Vanguard background. THEY get the 100% applied snare on an ability that is part of their normal rotation to keep proccing Ionic Accelerator. Commandos don't get that for our secondary IA proccing ability, Charged Bolts. It has the same baseline chance to proc Plasma Cell that every other skill has. If we want to reliably spread our DoTs around we have to rely on the 50% more expensive Incendiary Round, or spam Hammer Shot, which at least hits multiple times so has a better chance of proccing IA.

I don't play assault vanguard. Don't forget that HIB refreshes plasma cell automatically. Plasma cell lasts for 6 seconds, and HIB can be off cooldown a maximum of 6 seconds. Full auto and hammer shot both have a good chance of triggering it as well, so it's not that hard to keep it up. Even if you get unlucky, you are still going to keep it up more than force slow.

[Tank Swaps are Unnecessary for Firebrand and Stormcaller.]

And re cleaves, you might want to use logs.

 

22:34:51.388 Firebrand Battle Tank's Incinerate Armor adds effect Incinerate Armor to Necrophiliac.

22:35:05.122 Firebrand Battle Tank's Missile Barrage glances Zith for 7299 energy damage, causing 7299 threat.

22:35:06.864 Firebrand Battle Tank's Incinerate Armor effect of Incinerate Armor fades from Necrophiliac.

According to this log, Firebrand's Missile Barrage hits approximately 16 seconds after incinerate armor is applied. You really think it takes over 16 seconds to switch? I'm typically completely done positioning myself before incinerate armor is even done casting! You just shot yourself in the foot, my friend.

[Tank Swaps are Unnecessary for Firebrand and Stormcaller.]

You justify your strategy choice because it has higher threat generation and then admit threat is not an issue. Ummm... okay.

It might be an issue for some. For example, we have some tanks who, for various reasons, haven't had the time to gear up as fast as the DPS running the Op with them.

Nothing is complicated about that but some of us (yourself not included obviously) know that 1/3 of the tanking classes in the game do not have a leap. Also, you seem to fail at simple addition. The global cooldown is 1.5 seconds and you described two abilities on the global cooldown. Last I checked 3 seconds is greater than "a fraction of a second".

And now you've lost all credibility. Taunts are off the global cooldown. Unless you think tab targeting triggers the cooldown? Also, shadows have force speed. Granted, it requires a bit more skill to jump on the tank than to use force leap, but if that's a big deal to you, then just use resilience or stealth like others have suggested.

By the way, you could have just said: "We only use PT/Jugg tanks and have never done 16-EC HM so tank swapping works better for us in 8-Ops when we can't rely on always having a DPS with a taunt." Tank swapping is a perfectly viable strategy in that situation. You would have seemed quite sensible and not unintelligent had you simply said that. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Now you're just being elitist. No, my guild has not completed 16 man Hard Mode Explosive Conflict, because we do not have enough people with the gear and availability. This in no way invalidates anything I've said, and is no way a reflection of our skill. Again, all you can do is insult me, rather than explain why your method is superior.

As to 'noone' between the tanks.... standing on the outside of tanks puts you at >30m from the 'opposite' tank. This is bad for many reasons. Also, this will insure that all 4 healers will NOT be able to heal the entire Ops group all the time. Again, bad for many reasons, including if you go with 3 heals or new strats.

If one of your healers needs an assist, that's understandable. There is still little reason to worry about cleaves, since they don't cleave during or after incinerate armor anyway.