Csjbo
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Posts posted by Csjbo
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1 hour ago, slowdude said:
In a parallel world. In SWTOR the size and presence of a group has almost no effect on matchmaking. Either this algorithm does not exist, or there is a small time limit, after which it does not work. Otherwise, there would be no such threads, and players with premades of 5+ people would have been waiting for games for days.
There are limits to the algorithm. One is time, they don't want to have groups waiting for half an hour for an unranked warzone match. The second is that the algorithm usually treats all groups as equal, meaning the algorithm sees the DPS duo-queue as the same as a 4-man trinity comp group. However, the algorithm does exist. With all due respect, most of these threads exist because those players complaining about premades queue solo. and are ignorant of how the algorithm affects matchmaking.
I understand this is anecdotal, but from my experience queueing PVP with friends, the queue almost always places my group against another group.
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The OP states that SWTOR will never have the population to support multiple group PVP'ers, yet, wants SWTOR to put in a separate queue for group PVPers. I'm confused. The queues already prioritize groups to go against other groups.
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I would have rated Musco's post much higher if he just came out and said the reason for removing ranked and the leaderboards was because Bioware decided that ranked PVP was not worth allocating any more developer resources on. Evident by the last two years of no longer investigating win trading, totally botching the top 96 rewards of the final season, and allowing players to experience the longest competitive offseason in gaming history.
The idea of removing leaderboards and flagging to combat toxicity is patronizing and laughable. There have been so many players get banned for toxicity, only to be allowed back into SWTOR a couple weeks later where they engage in the same, toxic behavior.
What is going to happen with 7.2 is that people are going to continue to experience toxicity in PVP, but because ranked is gone, and there is no flags or anything to really spot who is a ranked player and who is not....the community won't be able to scapegoat ranked players for all their frustrations in SWTOR PVP.
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Nope, I suggested the likelihood is much higher, but thanks for putting words in my mouth and showing that you're looking to argue entirely in bad faith
I mean
a typical deathball zerg are dumb, you can typically avoid them and play the objective while they neckbeard for kill farming since there's several exits
Implying ranked players are neckbeards is pretty bad faith.
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Now, as for the ranked pre-mades in PvP:
You have an influx of new and returning people, they want to learn, they want to enjoy the game, but you're going to scare them off.
It might be fun for you to style on them, but think of it from their perspective, they got dogpiled and murdered over and over by people that are clearly more knowledgeable and skilled than them, they will just come to the conclusion that the PvP mode straight sucks and it could lead to them deciding to go "Not worth it" and not bothering.
There's an opportunity to re-grow the playerbase, sheathe your e-peen and suck in your pride for a couple of months and let them try to experience it before you start unga-bungaing their skulls in
I literally saw a ranked pre-made spawn camping against a team that was filled with lowbie new players
Come on guys n gals, that's Not cool and you're not proving anything by seal clubbing a bunch of players that are probably just experiencing it for the first time.
Walk it back, calm it down
P.S: If you're about to say "That's the nature of PvP", WAR died because of that attitude. Let the new/returners at least have a chance to grow before you start murking them.
When new players try out PVP, in any game, there is usually an expectation that they're going to die a lot. If players who are new to PVP do not want to stick around, it is rarely because of 'ranked premades' killing them over and over again. The two prevailing reasons for players not committing to progressing in PVP are that they do not find the gameplay loop enjoyable and the other would be if they felt success in PVP was unattainable unless they committed hundreds of hours to grinding gear.
I cannot stress how important it is for new players that queue up for PVP to understand that they will die and die a lot when they first play warzones. I remember my PVP experience in 4.0 and earlier patches revolving around unlocking 4X or Pierce and just getting steamrolled. However, I understood that PVP can be brutal, and expecting the queue to adjust to my inexperience would be foolish. If I truly wanted to become good at PVP, I had to commit and more importantly ask for help.
One other important thing to note is that most 'ranked premades' that farm kills over and over again....do not play ranked. The forums need to stop scapegoating ranked players for the failures of SWTOR PVP.
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Biggs's video on the meta was him complaining about the existence of a meta, he didn't really go into specifics as to why the 7.0 meta in particular is bad for the game. Just stating that some classes are not viable in end-game PVP or PVE is not going to cut it because every meta in SWTOR featured a "if you are playing x class you are throwing" dynamic.
Furthermore, he calls 7.0 the Stealth Meta which really only applies to 4 DPS Solo Ranked games. Once tanks and/or heals are put into play, the meta shifts drastically in favor of PTs (both specs) at the expense of burst stealth classes like Fury Mara and Deception Sin. Even Vengeance Juggernaut becomes way more viable. This is evident in Group Ranked where most of the team comps are OP Heals, Sin/PT Tank and 2 PTs.
If anything, 7.0 didn't change the meta enough with regards to DPS classes as PTs and Leth ops are still the most viable DPS specs. 7.0 did vary the meta for tanks because PT tanks are probably the best tanking spec, but sin tanks cannot be overlooked as well. Merc and Op heals are in a good spot with the latter being slightly more competitive, though a lot of that has to deal with the fact that fights which involve the trinity comp usually lead to everyone stacking which helps Op heals.
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I'm sure you're not alone but I don't think PVP was more fun and rewarded more skill in 6.0. Whatever cheese mechanics you believe is in 7.0 was multiplied in 6.0. Force Bound + Grit Teeth Jugg tanks were everywhere. Concealment operatives spamming rolls and ccs because they could. Lightning sorcs killing framerates with their chain lightning attacks. PTs had to be nerfed several times and were still obnoxious. There are more examples, but 6.0 could be unbearable at times.
I do feel the ability pruning in 7.0 is incomplete as I don't think Juggs should have their two CCs baseline among other things. I also do think the gap between certain classes is too large in 7.0, 7.1 is looking to change that though.
Regardless, I think 7.0 was a step in the right direction, less cheese mechanics like Force-Bound and less hyper-mobility abilities make positioning more important. More dedication to ability pruning and slightly more class balance will make 7.0 that much more enjoyable.
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That is why tanks get hate, once bad tanks start to queue they are getting bullied out before an actual tank can take the freewins, because that isn't fun for all the DPS.
Also: Healer games suck
You're not wrong, tanking is definitely the more difficult of the trinity in ranked while simultaneously being the most impactful.
I would like to add one important bit of context to tanking criticism in ranked. Since the days of having dozens of servers and no-cross faction PVP, there has always been a distrust of "bad tanks" in ranked. Similarly to heals, tanks get matched up specifically with other tanks and if one tank is clearly superior to the other, the former will win nearly every time. Such a disparity in skill is often used by "not bad tanks" to climb by farming "bad tanks" for ELO. It's not always clear if the "bad tank" is being coerced to queue solo ranked for the benefit of the "not bad tank" or is simply in the wrong place wrong time. Regardless, ranked players get very suspicious when they see a "bad tank" continue to queue solos, especially when another tank is in queue who seems to benefit the most from the "bad tank's" presence.
Anecdotally, I remember having many climbs ruined because of tanks farming "bad tanks" in order to gain hundreds of ELO in a night. It's well-known secret that some tanks will look for "bad tanks" on fleet and pay them to queue ranked. BW is not totally in the dark in this because usually the classes which most commonly have their rank reset are tank specs for that very reason.
That's not to say I approve of flaming tanks that don't perform well as I want tanks who are genuinely interested in getting better in ranked to keep queueing. However, I would be lying to you if I told you I don't get suspicious if I keep seeing a "bad tank" remaining in queue, especially when another tank is clearly benefiting.
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Hi everyone,
Here’s an update on the Top 96 Rewards that were distributed to PvP players last month. To recap, the rewards and titles were distributed and players were reporting that there were discrepancies in what was received/not received in conjunction with what was shown on the PvP Leaderboards. We have found that the data displayed publicly on the leaderboards were not updated to reflect the true rankings of the Ranked PvP game mode. This is due to the fact that some players were disqualified throughout the season or ineligible from placing on the leaderboard post season end.
As the leaderboards were not updated to reflect these removals, we understand why players were confused about why they received the rewards they did or why they received none at all. The majority of the top rewards have already been distributed accurately, and a handful of backfill rewards are incoming. We are working to get the few remaining rewards distributed when 7.0.2 is deployed.
Thank you for your patience as the team investigated this matter.
Even if I were to take this explanation at face value, which I don't.......this implies that the leaderboards cannot be trusted as the primary source for gauging top 96 progress. If players gunning for top 96 cannot trust the leaderboards, how will they know if they quality until rewards are given out?
Though I guess the vacuous 'backfill rewards' is a way to hedge against players who make too much noise
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The main problem with your suggestion is the assumption that every group that queues for unranked PVP is a damage/number farming premade. There are groups in PVP that exist and do objectives, it might seem rare but they are out there. If BW were to follow your suggestion, that group would be going against a damage/number farming premade in arena every time.
That being said, BW has attempted to address the premade issue by prioritizing groups to go AGAINST groups in unranked PVP. The problem is that, while we understand not all groups are the same, BW's matchmaking does not. It views a duo-queue of DPS players the same as a full group with tank/heals. That shouldn't be the case, but it is.
Another thing is that BW is attempting to address the issue of having wins-only scrapped and go back to a system where losing does count towards dailies and weeklies, albeit it takes 3x as long.
My solution to the issue of premades is and has always been to either collectively improve as a PVP community regarding skill or form groups of your own with people you like to play with. It won't cure everything but it's the easiest and most pragmatic way of addressing the 'premade question'.
Also, there seems to be an obsession on this board of punishing players for forming groups for activities in an MMO....I know this comes off as condescending but I really don't think people here understand the genre they're playing.
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Right, so now were getting personal? Guess i struck a nerve.
for the record the only times i EVER did that was when i got sick of the nonsense and didnt want to force someone else to get stuck in a bad match. So lol @ constantly. Better doesn't mean taking a beating so people can confuse advantage with skill. Other than that, i dont really care what you think of me, it changes nothing.
If you think you have the right to ruin another personas games, then they have the right to ruin yours... end of story.
You're right I took it personally when you said
.If you want a better PvP community, be better.
While I'm not an angel, I at least attempt to give players more knowledge and encouragement in PVP so they have more confidence to keep playing PVP and eventually test themselves in ranked. It's a lot more productive than premades + ranked players = bad. You can lol all you want but at the end of the day, you have ruined just as many players experience in PVP as those "ranked players".
Also you should care what other people think of you, it's part of being in a community.
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Whats its tied to or not tied to changes nothing.
You dont get to decide what matters in this game or who it matters to.
If you want a better PvP community, be better.
Ranked players dont get to step all over non ranked simply because they play ranked. It isnt apples and oranges when it comes to attitudes, when you play ranked, you play to win, shows the rest of the community the same courtesy, simple.
Im not suggesting they are the same, at all, but you do not have the right to ruin other peoples experience, its that simple.
Excuse me, but what have you done to make the PVP community a better place? I do not see you forming groups with people, creating pvp guilds, offering advice, offering encouragement, you just make spiteful remarks about premades and ranked players. In fact, I find it ironic that you are criticizing 'premades' for ruining the experience of other players in casual PVP, yet you constantly, in 6.0 stood AFK in corners of maps, contributing nothing to PVP or your team. Before you even dare answering it was because of premades, no, you threw in the towel for players that were trying to win. Please don't lecture anyone here about 'being better for PVP'.
If you are not suggesting they are the same, then do not treat them as analogous situations. The difference in attitudes for ranked and unranked are based on the difference in stakes. It is that simple.
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While technically true, it misses the point.
Most players in the game do not care about ranked, for whatever reasons. Whether its a bad experience, or poor results or maybe measuring pixels just ins their thing.
They still enjoy PvP though so they play regs, for fun, whihc is what they do care about.
How is ruining that fun any different than ruining elo/ratings? Are both not what the players in question care about?
My point is simple, its not right for one group to take liberties with wrecking another groups play options, thn complain about people ruining theirs.
It's different because Elo is tied to end of season rewards, it's a very simple, objective, correlation. Fun, on the other hand, is entirely subjective. Furthermore, you're comparing a casual PVP mode where people can either queue solo or in group with a competitive mode where people cannot queue in a group. You are comparing apples and oranges.
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I do think there needs to be a distinction between 'number farmers' and 'kill farmers' because you can win plenty of unranked warzones with the latter. There are a lot of warzones that award points based on kills such as Hypergate, Yavin 4, Voidstar to an extent. Not to mention it's easier to play objectives on most maps when the other team is in their spawn.
IMO, number farmers are different, they usually play AOE/DoT specs and their whole goal is to find where the other team is clumped up, kamikaze themselves while spamming AOEs (vengance jugg cut-to-pieces good example). Often times their damage gets healed by the other team's healers so nothing gets accomplished. They don't help in objs and don't really contribute to killing anything, in fact, they'll try not to kill anyone because the more targets that are alive = more targets to spread dots etc. Depending on the map, they can even hurt your team's chances of winning.
Teams that rack up the kills, I do think you can work with on most maps, but AOE number farmers are much more difficult to win with.
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So if an ungeared regs player jumps in ranked... totally cool, right?
I have the right to mess up your game play and how you want to play?
There's a difference between ranked and unranked warzones when it comes to winning and losing. The former deals with Elo rating which corresponds to end-of-season rewards. It is understandable why players would be peeved if someone comes into ranked consistently unprepared and undergeared. With regards to unranked warzones, aside from tech fragments in weeklies, there's not much at stake and that will go away once the PTS changes regarding losses counting towards weeklies go live. That's why unranked is referred to as casual PVP.
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My favorite warzone is Ancient Hypergate as I feel as though it is the most balanced. When I say balanced, I mean it encourages both objective gameplay and actual fighting. Spawn doors are not as brutal as other maps that can keep you from PVPing for up to 30 seconds. I also like the look of the warzone.
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Likely an unintended consequence to putting the set bonuses on implants and I agree with the OP. See no reason to cripple min/maxing in order to maintain a set bonus. Personally, I wish the 'set bonuses' would just be a separate piece of equipment like tacticals.
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I think Fury Mara either need to lose CC immunity on force crush or tactical resetting their camo has to go. They nerfed Grit Teeth for no reason, yet tactical that gives double cloak to Sins and Predation tactical remained in fact.
How does that make any sense?
Stealth needs to be nerfed especially for maras.
Right now they pop their stealth and PREDATION BEFORE even a fight starts, then charge force crush into saber ward for 12 seconds of being unkillable and immune to CC. After that predation has 18 seconds left and they have 1 more stealth.
This should not be happening. Mara's are way too arrogant right now with their use defensive CDs because nobody focuses them in arena.
Grit Teeth got reworked because Juggs only lost 1 DCD in the expansion and for many Juggs, it's their least important DCD. Therefore if they kept Grit Teeth as it was, Juggs would be very oppressive to go against. Mara's on the other hand, lose 2-3 DCDs depending on how the spec and one of them, obfuscate is a substantial loss. The devs likely thought it would make Maras very difficult to play in matches with high uptime if they adjusted Defel Spliced Genes.
Whether or not you agree with their logic is entirely up to you.
With regards to nerfing Gravity Vortex.....why? Most lobbies will only feature one player who can actually use a hardstun so having CC immunity isn't as important as it used to be. Idk about everyone else here, but when I queue solos, the matches usually feature 2-3 Fury Maras, 1 PT who spec hydralics and maybe 1 Jugg or Sorc or Operative. Some cases there are matches with no potential to CC at all besides the use of a nade.
I think it's best that they scrap Defel Spliced Genes and find a way to work Ruthlress Agressor back into their defensives so they can hang in there in matches with a healer.
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What are you smoking? It is a gamechanger. Otherwise lets remove tactical that resets force camo from predation if it is not a game changer...
I find it really funny that you decided to respond to this comment and not the one where I specify why I didn't believe that defel spliced genes was a gamechanger in tank/heal matches.
Double camo is fantastic and gamechanging in nearly all PVP and ranked situations, EXCEPT in tank/heal games, which is what my commentary was in reference to. The reason is that for a mara to make the most out of their untargetability while cloaked, they have to remain cloaked. What can't they do while cloaked unless they wish to break their stealth.....attack. So, if a mara is spending upwards of 1/3 of a match in stealth, that means they are only doing damage for 2/3 of that match. In those 6 seconds a mara is stealthed, that gives the other teams healer an incredibly important asset...time.... to heal and therefore alleviate some of the pressure. Unlike in 6.0 and before, maras cannot use awe, they cannot even spec into it, so there is no way for them to control the healer before cloaking to prevent the aforementioned situation from occurring.
PTs on the other hand are going to be attacking the entire time and can maintain that pressure without having to sacrifice damage.
It is for that reason that I do not believe that defel spliced genes is all that great in tank/heal matches. In pretty much any other circumstances, it's S tier.
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This is incorrect. Predation is extremely strong in group ranked as well. You don't realize how strong 70% movement speed is.to help your team kite. You can't shut down a healer, when he is running on pred. You can't dot spread as easily against a team with pred. You're also forgetting how much dsync pred causes.
It's not that I don't realize those benefits of predation, I just don't believe they're enough to change the outcome of a match that features trinity comps with PT and Leth OP dps. PTs in particular have several tools to counter predation.
I know I keep harping on a very particular situation and team composition, but it is one that I do believe we'll still see a lot of in 7.0.
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Yes, but again, biggest complaint rn is predation. Yes, the damage is a big problem, and while that nerf will certainly help balance pve that does very little for pvp. Pvp is not a parse off unless you are in regs.
Nerfing fury crits is cool and all, but fury will still have an abundance of roots and slows with raid wide root and slow immunity and 70% speed boost on a 30 second cd. Like cool, fury might no longer be the highest parsing class in the game. But they'll still have super pred every 30 seconds, with camo every 45 seconds + defel, vs classes with literally 0 mobility except sniper.
And in case you haven't noticed, snipers are too busy running marathons to chase a mara.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but predation doesn't grant immunity from roots and slows throughout its duration like Hydraulics. If that were the case, if a mara attempts to root me with obliterate while I had predation up, I can just keep running as if nothing happened. Predation is good, but it's not that good.
I don't think there is an agreement on this thread as to the root of the problem regarding maras, some say it's predation, others say it's defel spliced genes and the ability of a mara to spend 1/3 of the match in stealth. While those two are related, they are not the same.
I understand that parses are not applicable to PVP and I also understand that in solo ranked, survivability and group utility in most cases are more important than raw damage output. However, there are instances in ranked where raw damage output is important and that is in matches which feature trinity comps. Predation, while nice, is not a gamechanger in tank/heal matches because (in order to maximize the effectiveness of guard and heals) they require teams to be much closer together and the defense chance does nothing against yellow damage. Furthermore, defel spliced genes is a double-edged sword in those types of games because spending a 1/3 of the match in stealth will help you stay alive longer, but reduces your damage output by quite a bit and allows the other teams healer to relieve pressure. Therefore, for the viability of maras in these types of solo ranked matches and obviously group ranked, it is imperative that they put out the damage, or they lose out to PTs and Leth Ops, the former able to put out consistent damage even when under pressure.
There was a long period in 6.0, at least in SF, where the solo ranked queue was dominated by tank/heal games and maras, unable to match the damage of PTs and Leth Ops while also unable to provide the utility of snipers, really struggled. It stands to reason maras were a nonfactor in many group ranked matches as well. It is true that eventually , the queue in SF featured more 4 DPS and Heal/DPS matches. However, I do think that pure DPS classes such as mara and sniper should have viability in trinity comp matches, therefore, I pay closer attention to their damage output than others, as I mentioned earlier, in those types of games, that's all they really have to offer.
With regard to defel spliced genes, I know it's probably on your mind. I'm against it in it's current form, I'd rather ruthless aggressor come back in some form and Bioware scraps the tactical. It takes the hit/run aspect of maras to an annoying extreme.
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What nerfs?
The baseline kit of Fury will no longer feature the autocrit (or supercrit depending on semantics) on Berserk/Zen. You will have to spec into it as the autocrit is merged into the utility where you generate 1 rage each time you deal damage with a force/kenetic/energy ability. This is important because currently, the utility that literally every Fury Mara uses regardless of PVE or PVP, Critically (25% crit chance increase during berserk/zen), is on that same utility bracket.
What the nerf means is that Fury Maras will have to choose between the autocrit and critically, therefore their damage potential will go down. In terms of how much, that remains to be seen. I don't think the defenses of Maras have changed though.
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Yeah they had a good 5.0 but if memory serves Mercs did way better.
Why? Simply due to having more utilities. This is where Mara falls short and why it needed more DPS.
Even in 5.0 that was the case. There were an elite few that could play it like it was Meta and that was it.
Mercs were way better in the beginning of 5.0 but as that era matured and subsequent patches nerfed mara's biggest enemies, PT Tank and Engi Sniper, Fury Maras were the 1b to Mercs 1a. Old Ruthless Aggressor + Blood Ward + Gravity Vortex = 18 second CC immunity that dissuaded many from focusing maras first, unless that mara was truly awful. Fury maras were incredibly flexible in 5.0, able to excel in ALLtypes of matchups, 4 DPS, Heal/DPS, Tank/DPS and of course, Tank/Heals. IIRC Mercs were obviously great but once their damage got nerfed, they lost a bit of viability in tank/heal matches.
I agree more with Jedimasteralex in that maras were meta in 5.0 and over time grew into one of, if not, the top spec in ranked until 6.0 launched. Sure, the players who mained mara for years were able to dominate, but even rerollers and those not familiar with all the intricacies of the class were able to do well.
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Based on the ability tree, it seems as though Bioware wants Carnage to specialize in speed, movement bonuses stacking and fast attacks. If Carnage doesn't hit particularly hard WITH a high crit build, it will likely convince players to run a high alacrity build for Carnage which isn't too difficult to do with their constant alacrity buffs and passives.
While this idea sounds fun in certain circumstances, I'd much rather have Carnage be a hard-hitting, lethal spec. They need to give Carnage a supercrit like they did for Fury and beserk. Or at least make another implant which gives furious power generation like DOTF did back in 7.0 so I can have fun with Prosecution.
Average Player Skill level
in PvP
Posted
While understanding rotations and setting up burst windows are important for PVP, I'm not sure it's that difficult for a casual player because the abilities literally glow when crits are proc'd. However, it's being able to utilize DCDs effectively that separates PVP from PVE, and unfortunately 90% of all PVE content in the game can be completed without ever using a DCD. As a result, most of the players who play PVE are going to be wholly prepared to defend themselves in a mode that requires them to cycle through DCDs. Making PVE more difficult so that players have to understand how defensives for their class work would go a long way into giving them the confidence to play PVP with confidence.