otherworlder
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Thanks, I'll give it a shot there as well!
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"No One Escapes a Black Hole."
If your travels take you to the sort of seedy spaceports frequented by petty gangs scrabbling for turf, where the value of a sentient life is often little greater than a bent credit chit, you may have heard the rumble of black Lhosan swoops heralding the passage of the Black Hole Gang.
Always clad in black riding leathers covered in stitched-on patches, members of the Black Hole Gang swooper club prominently display the symbol of a jagged black spiral with a stylized vrblther skull at the center. Though few in number, members of the gang are notorious for being unusually violent and unusually willing to handle even the most rotten task. Previously implicated in running blasters to several separatist factions within Republic space, the Gang swiftly found a place on numerous Republic watch lists.
Once a considerable nuisance for law enforcement and military authorities on several Outer Rim worlds, the Black Hole Gang recently suffered a setback following an SIS sting---many of the lower level soldiers and some fully patched members were arrested, and the though the Gang's leadership and chief muscle escaped direct implication, their illegal pipeline of low-grade blasters dried up.
Other petty gangs said the Black Hole had vanished... swallowed up by the void. But a new brand of premium, high-grade deathsticks recently hitting the market on Nar Shaddaa, Tatooine, Hutta and even sporadically in Imperial space have been linked to these resourceful bikers. Rumor has it that the Gang has found a new specialty trade, one far less likely to end up on Republic radar---though the brains behind these high quality deathsticks remains a mystery to all but a few.
"They're Mean as Gundarks and Twice as Likely to Charge if You Make Eye Contact."
Though the gang's few remaining members have been struggling to keep a low profile following the string of arrests, they remain easily recognizable by their swooper patches and black bikes. Feelers have gone out into the underworld looking for buyers and distributors for their new brand of deathsticks, and some of the more notoriously violent members of the Gang remain available for hire as expensive muscle.
The gang's leadership has been hesitant to recruit new patch members and prospects of late, fearing that should any of their currently jailed associates turn 'womp rat', then informants or undercover SIS could be right around the corner. But recent power struggles and setbacks in attempting to move their new product have convinced some that its worth the risk----the gang now always has its eyes open for the right sort of swoop-biking scum to carry their colors.
The Gang's 'public' facades, intact for almost a decade, remain known to underworld contacts across the Outer Rim. Word has it that anyone brave or foolish enough to seek an audience with these swoop-riding cutthroats need only reach out to "Queelo Brothers' Scrapyard" in the wastes of Tatooine or one of several swoop garages from Nar Shaddaa to Mos Ila.
OOC Info:
Who are we?
The Black Hole Gang has been a small family guild since the launch of TOR on Ebon Hawk. We've only recently begun immersing ourselves in the RP community here, but our experience RPing in other MMOs is extremely extensive. While we are presently few in number in terms of players, we have numerous distinct characters available for criminal RP of all kinds. We tend to enjoy PvP (a lot), and it's likely we'd be better recognized in that aspect of the game than any other---but we've always been RPers first and foremost, and are eager to become more involved in that part of the game.
What can we offer?
As rough-and-tumble swoop bikers, we're game for just about any criminal activity you can conceive. Need a couple extra enforcers / bodyguards / muscle for a shipment, meeting, party or other function? We're happy to oblige, and game to partake in any form of conflict resolution that may arise. Need suppliers of premium deathsticks? The Black Hole Gang has recently come to the market with an extremely pure derivative of the balo mushroom, one that has customers begging for more. Need an enemy or nuisance taught a lesson? We have goons just itching for a fight. Need a small shipment of guns, spice or other commodity transported at speed planet-side? Those bikes aren't just for show.
What are we looking for in a potential member?
Historically the Black Hole Gang has been a small guild that partakes in PvP, PvE and RP with equal enjoyment. We're self starters who are happy to throw ourselves into any aspect of the game. As we've become more involved with the RP community, we've finally decided to open recruitment to others with a similar frame of mind. What we're looking for are mature adults who enjoy all aspects of the game and are eager to RP a rowdy, tough-as-nails swoop biker.
While we do try to run regular RP outings ranging from exchanges with other criminal guilds to dealing deathsticks at high traffic hotspots to stand-alone episodic events and gang meetings, we're also happy to simply get together and engage in social hijinks amongst ourselves at the drop of a hat. It's important to point out that as players, we also greatly enjoy the game's PvP and PvE content and so we'd ideally want players of a like mind. While we will provide RP content as much as possible, we can't promise to hold everyone's hand on an hourly basis.
We're not aiming for a huge guild where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. What we hope to have is a relatively small, tight-knit group of scum and villains that regularly interact and are quickly recognizable.
Candidates MUST own a black swoop bike (ideally a Lhosan Manta or Hyrotii Racer, but any black swoop bike is acceptable) and your character must wear some mix of black and/or dark gray. Vests/jackets/swooper gear is ideal, but we're open to anything that looks cool.
Contact Us:
If you're interested in employing the Black Hole Gang or reaching out to us to inquire about possible membership, the Gang owns several legitimate front businesses that can be contacted, per above. Simply send a tell to one of the following characters (your choice if you want to commlink us IC or inquire OOC) and we'll go from there: Gorax, Rotor, Z-Flare, Vor-Voon, Julilla, Velshia, Longspur. Alternatively, you can post here and we'll follow up with you in-game.
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"No One Escapes a Black Hole."
If your travels take you to the sort of seedy spaceports frequented by petty gangs scrabbling for turf, where the value of a sentient life is often little greater than a bent credit chit, you may have heard the rumble of black Lhosan swoops heralding the passage of the Black Hole Gang.
Always clad in black riding leathers covered in stitched-on patches, members of the Black Hole Gang swooper club prominently display the symbol of a jagged black spiral with a stylized vrblther skull at the center. Though few in number, members of the gang are notorious for being unusually violent and unusually willing to handle even the most rotten task. Previously implicated in running blasters to several separatist factions within Republic space, the Gang swiftly found a place on numerous Republic watch lists.
Once a considerable nuisance for law enforcement and military authorities on several Outer Rim worlds, the Black Hole Gang recently suffered a setback following an SIS sting---many of the lower level soldiers and some fully patched members were arrested, and the though the Gang's leadership and chief muscle escaped direct implication, their illegal pipeline of low-grade blasters dried up.
Other petty gangs said the Black Hole had vanished... swallowed up by the void. But a new brand of premium, high-grade deathsticks recently hitting the market on Nar Shaddaa, Tatooine, Hutta and even sporadically in Imperial space have been linked to these resourceful bikers. Rumor has it that the Gang has found a new specialty trade, one far less likely to end up on Republic radar---though the brains behind these high quality deathsticks remains a mystery to all but a few.
"They're Mean as Gundarks and Twice as Likely to Charge if You Make Eye Contact."
Though the gang's few remaining members have been struggling to keep a low profile following the string of arrests, they remain easily recognizable by their swooper patches and black bikes. Feelers have gone out into the underworld looking for buyers and distributors for their new brand of deathsticks, and some of the more notoriously violent members of the Gang remain available for hire as expensive muscle.
The gang's leadership has been hesitant to recruit new patch members and prospects of late, fearing that should any of their currently jailed associates turn 'womp rat', then informants or undercover SIS could be right around the corner. But recent power struggles and setbacks in attempting to move their new product have convinced some that its worth the risk----the gang now always has its eyes open for the right sort of swoop-biking scum to carry their colors.
The Gang's 'public' facades, intact for almost a decade, remain known to underworld contacts across the Outer Rim. Word has it that anyone brave or foolish enough to seek an audience with these swoop-riding cutthroats need only reach out to "Queelo Brothers' Scrapyard" in the wastes of Tatooine or one of several swoop garages from Nar Shaddaa to Mos Ila.
OOC Info:
Who are we?
The Black Hole Gang has been a small family guild since the launch of TOR on Ebon Hawk. We've only recently begun immersing ourselves in the RP community here, but our experience RPing in other MMOs is extremely extensive. While we are presently few in number in terms of players, we have numerous distinct characters available for criminal RP of all kinds. We tend to enjoy PvP (a lot), and it's likely we'd be better recognized in that aspect of the game than any other---but we've always been RPers first and foremost, and are eager to become more involved in that part of the game.
What can we offer?
As rough-and-tumble swoop bikers, we're game for just about any criminal activity you can conceive. Need a couple extra enforcers / bodyguards / muscle for a shipment, meeting, party or other function? We're happy to oblige, and game to partake in any form of conflict resolution that may arise. Need suppliers of premium deathsticks? The Black Hole Gang has recently come to the market with an extremely pure derivative of the balo mushroom, one that has customers begging for more. Need an enemy or nuisance taught a lesson? We have goons just itching for a fight. Need a small shipment of guns, spice or other commodity transported at speed planet-side? Those bikes aren't just for show.
What are we looking for in a potential member?
Historically the Black Hole Gang has been a small guild that partakes in PvP, PvE and RP with equal enjoyment. We're self starters who are happy to throw ourselves into any aspect of the game. As we've become more involved with the RP community, we've finally decided to open recruitment to others with a similar frame of mind. What we're looking for are mature adults who enjoy all aspects of the game and are eager to RP a rowdy, tough-as-nails swoop biker.
While we do try to run regular RP outings ranging from exchanges with other criminal guilds to dealing deathsticks at high traffic hotspots to stand-alone episodic events and gang meetings, we're also happy to simply get together and engage in social hijinks amongst ourselves at the drop of a hat. It's important to point out that as players, we also greatly enjoy the game's PvP and PvE content and so we'd ideally want players of a like mind. While we will provide RP content as much as possible, we can't promise to hold everyone's hand on an hourly basis.
We're not aiming for a huge guild where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. What we hope to have is a relatively small, tight-knit group of scum and villains that regularly interact and are quickly recognizable.
Candidates MUST own a black swoop bike (ideally a Lhosan Manta or Hyrotii Racer, but any black swoop bike is acceptable) and your character must wear some mix of black and/or dark gray. Vests/jackets/swooper gear is ideal, but we're open to anything that looks cool.
Contact Us:
If you're interested in employing the Black Hole Gang or reaching out to us to inquire about possible membership, the Gang owns several legitimate front businesses that can be contacted, per above. Simply send a tell to one of the following characters (your choice if you want to commlink us IC or inquire OOC) and we'll go from there: Gorax, Rotor, Z-Flare, Vor-Voon, Julilla, Velshia, Longspur. Alternatively, you can post here and we'll follow up with you in-game.
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Thanks for continuing to rant on about "extended colors" being the issue. AKA: 32 million colors. AKA: sRGB. AKA: what any monitor made in the last decade is perfectly capable of displaying.
See above.
Because, again, one of us has to. May as well be me since you've apparently sworn off learning anything.
Listen man, you should just stop. You're on the wrong end of this gun.
You're not a graphics professional if you don't understand the difference between a wide gamut display and an SRGB display (and seem to have no knowledge of the issues suffered by users of the former when it comes to content designed strictly for the SRGB crowd).
Google the issue and you'll discover everything you want to know about it in ten minutes. It's a real thing.
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Does no ones monitor have the option to change the contrast? Seriously... its like children at the computer.
As another person pointed out, my display is a professional setup with calibration hardware/software that handles this for me, and does so with pinpoint accuracy. I'm not going to manually sabotage that and risk creating inaccurate images in my work just to accommodate a bad graphics change in one game.
Fortunately BW left us that nifty escape clause in the setup files so we can have our cake and eat it too. Why do you care?
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I use professional hardware calibrated display with wide color gamut which means that it has capability to show more colors than regular home/office display. These displays exist because when you prepare graphics for pre-press you need to see exactly how your magazine cover or ad will look when printed.
Of course, when application you are working with is "color-managed", i.e. able to understand your device's color profile (which works as some sort of "map" to match colors from your source to target device properly) then all is fine and dandy. Many apps these days are color-managed, including major web browsers.
When application doesnt care it may produce unexpected results, such as extreme over-saturation of certain colors. This is basically my problem with this patch in a nutshell. They changed colors by adding more saturation and contrast, and it turned my SWTOR experience into Alice in Wonderland acid trip.
Im quite happy that Bioware developers thought about people like me and allowed me to roll back to the way the game was looking before. I checked the game on cheap TN panel display and what I had "before" is actually more or less what TN users are having now with this vibrancy "on".
I actually wondered if this might be the culprit in my case as well. I'm a professional illustrator and have a calibrated wide gamut display and had to do a ton of research when I first got the thing to figure out why certain apps, OS, browsers, etc tended to show images with insane saturation/contrast. Having finally done the homework on that, the new change in TOR reminded me very much of it. This could certainly explain why some are not seeing a huge difference on default while others are getting their retinas drilled out.
Thankfully, I was able to reset to the original preferred color scheme. To each their own.
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New graphics update looks great. It's just another one of those things you need to adapt to. We have been playing with the dull drab colors ever since the game launched so we have gotten used to it. The new vibrant change is for the better and is really great.
This goes to show you, there will always be some who don't like it But I can understand that to. You are very, very used to the old way, cause like I said it was there for a year and a half.Just play. Adapt. And take it for what it is. A great update on the color of the old drab, dull looking fogified SWTOR
I wholly disagree with this. The original more drab palette was a stylistic choice I agreed with for a gritty setting---and honestly it isn't the colors that irritate me so much as the jacked up contrast. I turn my character away from a light source and his shadowed side basically vanishes into black. Way too stark, old way was better.
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Hrrrm...
in my client settings file, there is no listing for the color remap. Anyone hazard a guess as to why?
Also, can I simply add the option and set it to false myself?
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Yeah, on a solid display with settings at max this change is an eyesore. It's so dark on the fleet I feel like my character should be stumbling around, the level of contrast on previously brightly lit planets is horrid, and the new 'vibrant' colors are way oversaturated. This is Star Wars, not WoW.
Will definitely be attempting to turn that setting off per the suggestion above. Thanks!
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Okay, pet peeve number 2.
Let people play... no one is -stopping- a PuG, Casual, Non-competitive, etc... from playing how they want to play now. They are free to queue without a group, run into the warzone naked, and throw legacy punches, spam emotes, etc. Everyone is allowed to play in the current system.
In a matchmaking system, everyone is still allowed to play -and- the system tries to sort them via "how they like to play." A lot fewer lopsided matches, more equality, etc.
In split queue/toggle there are player -not- allowed to play how they want. If there isn't another group (and in the case of 3-mans, a specific combination of other groups) then so sorry, you don't get to play. Meanwhile there may be plenty of PvP'ers playing, but they've got their own specially tailored play place, and **** the rest of you! (Paraphrasing actual other posters here).
As for the rest of it, Bioware can't, simple solution, etc... I've already made my points about those.
You've made your points on how realistic the matchmaking idea is, but they remain naive.
You're gunning for a highly theoretical pie in the sky solution that BW's present devs not only couldn't accomplish, but are not likely to TRY and accomplish any time soon.
Let's keep the bar low.
Our chances of getting a minor change (an on/off button) are a whole lot better than a sweeping reconstruction of the guts of the queuing system and the addition of visible/invisible player stat tracking on numerous variables that may or may not even BE a good indicator of player skill/experience (not to mention all of those variables would probably start at 0 and require a lot of time to build up any useful data).
If BW decides to sink a lot of money and man-hours into a system to help PvP balance, I think everyone is agreed we'd much rather see them put that effort into X-Server development instead.
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Once again, this highlights the main problem with WZ's - the most important job is doing NOTHING while you guard something. I know plenty of guys who will guard, I will also guard, but I've never met anyone who entered a WZ, HOPING to guard something.
God, that is well said. This is why I'm dying for new maps with the innovation of Huttball (but not just Huttball) where the best players don't have to spend 75% of the match with thumb squarely up ***.
Objective PvP is fun, but there are a lot of ways to do it that don't require turning one or more players into glorified security guards reading a magazine at the desk.
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Your points were addressed. Team comp will continue being a problem in solo queue. All you've done is make it less likely. It also hasn't solved the team comp in group queue as casual premades aren't focused on what classes they are bringing, just that they have friends. So I fail to see how solo queue resolves this issue. Outside of a role toggle, this will never be fixed and that would decimate queue times and suffer all the shortcomings of group finder.
The distinction in who benefits from a solution is key. There are multiple types of people who both group and queue solo. Solo queue only benefits the casual solo queuer to some extent and no one else. Competitive groups still play with/against casual groups. Casual groups still play with/against competitive groups. Competitive solo queuers still play with/against casual solo queuers. Casual solo queuers still play with/against competitive solo queuers.
The only benefit is that casual solo queuers don't see competitive premades. They won't see casual premades either, but that isn't really a problem right now anyway and only prolongs their queue time.
If your only argument is that you don't think BW can implement a successful matchmaking system, then you may consider moving on to a different game. If you don't trust the devs to improve your experience, then the game will never get better for you.
I bolded one of your comments above because both you and Doom used a similar statement in attempt at rebuttal of this point.
It's sort of... conveniently naive for two people arguing hard for the most pragmatic, practical solution to suddenly rely on the notion that BW could deliver on a complex matchmaking system when all evidence points firmly to the contrary. There's nothing practical about blind, unsupported faith.
I love TOR, but you'll never catch me relying on the idea that the BW devs will figure out the Hero engine they cobbled together or that EA will decide to start putting resources into complicated ideas that don't immediately yield a bottom line.
We all know that's not likely to happen (though I'd be giddy to be proven wrong on this point), and being a realist doesn't make me less of a TOR supporter than anyone else.
Simple changes are (somewhat) within BW's ability to implement without many resources spent or possibility for game breaking bugs. Mathematically complex systems demanding a lot of resources and tons of variables are a train wreck waiting to happen.
Let people play the way they want to.
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The issue with your solo queue (or toggle) is that it fails to help skilled solo queuers and casual groups. Basically, as a solo queuer, I'm still going to have the possibility of having absolutely horrible players on my team and we'll still get absolutely destroyed by better players. Teams are still random and you'll still have team comp issues. In fact, you'll probably have far more team comp issues since the tanks and healers will mostly be queued with groups. Any 1 tank or healer in solo queue could easily ruin games.
Casual groups have also not been helped. They will still have to face ranked caliber teams in group queue simply to play with friends. Top tier teams will also have the possibility of getting matched with casual teams that can't compete with their competition. Essentially, a solo queue doesn't help the more skilled players at all and hurts casual groups. The only group even moderately aided by this solution is low-moderate skilled PUGs that won't see as many of the better players who primarily group.
Most of those legitimately arguing for matchmaking aren't against solo queue entirely, but understand that the population is not high enough without cross server to support both solo queue and matchmaking at the same time. Matchmaking is just a solution that helps far more people than solo queue as I outlined above.
I don't disagree that separate queues will still end up with lopsided matches, that's common sense. But your odds of a lopsided match when all players (good and bad and average) are shuffled randomly is a lot lower than if the pugs are queueing against premades for hours at a time.
Ideally, via good word of mouth about the addition of a solo queue/toggle, more casual pvpers would stick around, come back or try TOR out and the population would grow enough for a matchmaker to be of use in all brackets/ formats.
Matchmaking helps servers with already healthy populations find more balanced pug v pug and premade v premade matches, but does nothing to eliminate the advantages of premade vs pug unless you successfully build a fabulously complex and clockwork-perfect set of criterion-----which simply will not happen.
Come on guys, this is BW. Theorycrafting is one thing, but we need a simple solution so they won't bungle it.
A solo queue is something casual pvpers and solo pvpers really, really want. They are a large population. Give a large population what they're asking for, and the game gets healthier. More PvP for everyone.
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Two things here:
Voice chat is the only advantage a Group can have but a PuG can not (reasonably). It also happens to be the one thing Bioware has no control over, except to provide in-game voice chat. -Every- other group "advantage" has been de-mystified as not only present in PuG's, but also not inherent in grouping. The only "advantage" is a argument about probabilities. Groups have a higher -probability- of being 2-4 people of like mind, skilled, geared, and be of proper composition.
Secondly, you are using the weakest form of matchmaking in an attempt to discredit it. Lemme purple this cause it's the most important bit of this post:
Matchmaking is a generalized term. Players here have suggested a skill based matchmaking, some have said a win/lose ratio, others have complex formulas and some (myself) have even suggested that queue type be part of the criteria. There has also been discussion of a "group" rating buff given to groups that form, that artificially inflates it's spot on the hierarchy to reflect the higher probability of advantages (such as composition). Matchmaking can be based on all of these things, and will also "decay" in criteria as the queue time takes longer.
In your described example, you are only using a pure skill-based criteria it seems. I personally think only one criteria is a mistake. If there was either a win/loss ratio added or a group rating buff mechanic the 4 pugs that are evening out the 4-premade would actually be of "higher skill" to counter act the "group advantage."
Unfortunately, this conversation is slowed down because some won't let go of the flawed, inflexible split queue. They should instead argue that queue type needs to be included as part of the match makings top tier criteria. In a sense, matchmaking could be a "queue split" while still remaining flexible enough not to completely **** over causal and non-casual groups.
This argument does not hold water. Simple doesn't mean better, and Bioware's execution of a good idea (as shown by bolster which is a good idea, but badly executed) isn't enough to say we should do a simplier, BAD idea instead. A bad idea is a bad idea.
Why is it in the Red part, you make sure to state casual, solo but in the Yellow part you only say " retain more casuals?"
There is a difference between casual, non-casual, solo, grouped, and even non-competitive and competitive players. From your distinction in the first part, me thinks you understand and acknowledge the split queue's only helps casual solo'ers (and perhaps even more specifically casual, competitive solo'ers).
I only stop to wonder if the last part where you leave out this distinction is ignorance, poorly thought out, or intentional deception.
Either way, split queue's only helps a certain part of the population, at the expense (and possible subs) of multiple other parts. Jade summed it up nicely.
Despite my politeness you're starting to get a bit snarky and accusatory again, so this might be my last post in here for awhile. Some folks are okay with it in an intelligent debate, but to me it's wearying. I apologize if this observation offends. In any case:
The probable complexity you describe in your purple section is... let's just say it, BW would not be able to handle that. We're in eternal preseason and there still hasn't even been mention of any kind of ELO system, ranked matchmaking, etc; BW manages to constantly introduce new bolster bugs while failing to fix the concept; age-old issues like the backfill bug continue to pop up with sad regularity; and in the WZ queue 3 healers are put on one team while none are put on the other.
What you're describing is as likely to be within BW's capabilities as a preschooler doing calculus.
Simple in this case may not be perfect, but it's better than another monstrously complex undertaking likely to fall on its face by the time it hit live. And in this case, the simple solution might yield immediate dividends (good word of mouth, upsurge in the number of casuals / soloers pvping and subbing again) while the far more complex matchmaking may yield no results at all unless a premade team is not around.
Also, you only attempted to address one of my arguments against the lopsided matchmaking example. Voice chat is an advantage, but so is experience working with your teammates, and most importantly: the ability to set up an optimal comp in advance, which most competitive premades will do. Unless you're suggesting that this theoretical matchmaker should also sort puggers by roles, but I'd submit that would hurt queue times far more than any other option so far put forth.
Your later passage about the distinction you think I'm implying between casuals/solo vs casuals honestly just confuses me. I figured it was common sense that I was talking about casual and solo pvpers in general: the majority who generally queue alone, generally don't enjoy playing against a stacked deck, and are the most likely not to continue playing if they aren't having fun. Those most likely to profit from a solo queue, and those most likely to be hurt by the lack of one.
Your tone is obviously hostile and trying to paint me as mincing my words, but the point you're trying to make beyond that isn't at all clear to me. Apologies.
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Sorry Maverick, gonna have to call you on this one.
A highly competitive 4-man (the main issue of this thread) is not akin to a bully. They literally have no where else to play and are just as entitled to be in the general population as average joe who doesn't like them. There is no inherent malice in their queue'ing, and as stated before they have no control over the ability of their opponents.
I personally object to these "examples" (yours, Sharee's, etc...) that are highly inflammatory by using children in them. A PuG or Casual is not a child, they are adults (presumably) fully capable of defending themselves or retreating to a safe place when in a stressful situation. A child doesn't have the same mental ability, maturity, or wisdom and the effects of such trauma is long lasting, devastating, and in some cases lethal. To compare anything a Premade can do within the scope of the game to an the effects of bullying is disrespectful to the actual victims of bullying.
Finally, and this isn't directed at you though it is something you just stated:
People need to stop propagating this false argument:
Not only is the "probability" of either matchmaking or split queue's unknown, it is irrelevant. The argument boils essentially down to:
Split queue's are easy to implement and should be considered based on this.
Simple solutions that lead to complex problems are still not good solutions. I linked a few threads from the rift forum which highlighted and shows real effects of split queue's. A short highlight:
Long/Non-existent group queue.
Extremely long queue's for groups of 3.
Groups queue syncing as solo to get a match.
PuG's still complaining about lopsided matches
PuG's still complaining about gear/level/abilities/heals/team comp.
Given the disasters that are Bolster and RWZs, your faith in BW to design a working matchmaking system is... highly optimistic.
Also, as I pointed out earlier in rebuttal, your links about Rift complaints come mostly from Premades stung by their increased queue times and the usual Pugger complaints that will happen no matter what steps are taken in any direction (lopsided matches and bad comps will happen even in the best of cases).
That sucks for them, for certain, but given premades are in the minority and more happy casuals = more people pvping, I think it's a better sacrifice than continuing to allow casuals to get farmed by premades.
End goal here is more people pvping and enjoying it.
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please don't feed trolls.
In fairness though, as I myself pointed out a bit earlier, he does have a point.
Matchmaking is better than no matchmaking, absolutely. I'll take it over nothing at all, but that's not the point.
Why is it flawed and basically still a retention of the status quo? Because if you match up 2 teams of equally skilled players where one team has 4 people with an optimal comp, experience playing together, voice chat, etc and the other team's comp is entirely random and they have no such edge... the advantage still lies with the premade for obvious reasons. Simple math. Equal skill across the board, but one team has additional advantages.
It's an argument for allowing premades to retain their inherent advantages over pugs, except that the inevitable losses will be less lop-sided.
I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm arguing because I don't want to see BW think matchmaking is the solution to premade vs. pug, put resources into it that could have been put into something MUCH easier and less resource intensive (solo only toggle) or something much more desired if long-term (X-server) only to have us end up right back in the same place with the same player complaints.
Matchmaking is a GREAT thing for MMO pvp to have, but it's not an answer to premade vs. pug.
Letting casual, solo pvpers queue the way they want will allow us to retain more casuals and attract many back. Then the population gets bigger, and other options become available for pvp balance management.
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keep those tears coming. my tub is almost full.
couldn't help myself.
Please help yourself next time.
Posts like this are not necessary and not constructive, regardless of the reason or which side someone is on. When intelligent, thoughtful discourse is achieved, one's intent should not be to drag it back down into mudslinging. "He started it" or "eye for an eye" are not good enough justifications for rudeness, guys.
If you want respect in life, take the high road whenever possible and reserve your sarcasm, anger and aggression for issues that really matter, or where they might make a difference.
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i guess im old school; i can remember a time when the people that wanted to master their hobby were the majority.
what frustrates me the most is how little effort is really required to become 'good'. for all intents and purposes, i am a casual player. 1-2 hours a night tops, occasionally on the weekends for a bit longer. but that doesnt stop me from wanting to be good.
there are plenty of people that say "its just a video game, its not work. who cares how i do?", but what is so bad about trying to excel at everything you do? its almost as if becoming skilled at a video game is somehow demeaning. and its reflected in the community; "no-lifers" and worse terms are thrown around as if a skilled player is somehow a plague to society.
its hard to explain. on a fundamental level, i am competitive. i think that is a trait that is starting to become more and more rare, and not just in video games. i just cannot fathom how someone can lack the desire to win, and to perform as best as they can. i mean, is that not the basis for the complaints in this thread? players upset that they are not winning as much as they would like.
i think its a sad reflection on society as a whole. if someone is better than you, knock them down a peg so its "fair".
anyways, all of this debating is moot. bioware is likely going to be taking no action on this either way. which is unfortunate.
98% agreed. I don't choose to partake in something unless I'm prepared to do my best at it, and learn to get better than I start out. I'm very competitive, I don't want to lose, but I'm okay with it as long as there's competition and fun involved. You often learn more from losses than wins, if you're paying attention to why you lost.
I don't think any of these things are bad. In fact I daresay they're solid qualities in a human being as long as it doesn't go overboard.
But I'm a realist. When I log in at random crazy hours, I want my queue to pop. If that means we need to bend a little (or even a lot) to accommodate folks who are either: a) lazy, b) try their best but will only ever be 'meh', or c) put their energy and attention into their work, family, another hobby, and only play MMOs for ***** and giggles, then I accept that it's a necessary evil to keep the PvP community sizable.
The 2% I disagree with:
Most of the complaints in this thread (at least the valid ones) are not about losing---they're about constantly getting crushed with no hope of scoring a single kill, much less a win. On smaller, premade-dominated servers, that is gradually starting to become a reality again like it used to be before ftp. Losing is fine with most puggers/ solo players, as long as the match is competitive and there's some back and forth.
Also, seeking fairness is not necessarily about the bads trying to undermine the goods (though some certainly do feel that way). It's about getting people of equal skill level, coordination and commitment to play against other like-minded people. Forcing the ho-hum casuals to play on the level of the hardcores will never work. Hardcores should play hardcores, casuals should play casuals.
Sadly, achieving that in a game where the devs don't seem to acknowledge their pvpers much and the population is already flagging is... unlikely, unless a great many things get fixed first. Especially since EA seems to have already put the cow on milking mode.
1. No more WZ bugs and exploits
2. Better AC balance
3. More PvP incentives and options (Open world, leveling, small-scale, more WZs, more innovation, a tangible sense of Star Wars with emphasis on the Wars)
4. More PvP devs and more transparency from those devs about what they're doing and what they think we want.
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well for starters, Pyro is not good atm. try arsenal spec.
the rest of your post is a lot of l2p issues.
i absolutely demolish people in regs, and am able to be a competitor in RWZ. merc/mando is fine, it just has a high skill cap.
This is all accurate.
People call Merc a faceroll class because it has a very, very, very simple dps rotation in a vacuum, but knowing how to position yourself, pick targets, kite, use your defensive/escape tools, offheal/cleanse, and so forth is a hell of a lot harder than many other ACs, and if you screw up or don't move your butt fast enough you're going to get locked down into oblivion.
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What the others have said is (mostly) true. Pyro merc is arguably the absolute worst dps class in the game right now, especially after the nerf to Thermal Detonator.
Arsenal merc is in a pretty decent place if you're talking about regs, but I won't lie to you and tell you we're on par with snipers in terms of damage, range, survivability or CC (no dps really is, though). In rateds? You might get brought along for the net if you're really good at the wheel of your merc, but there are much better options for ranged dps atm. YMMV, of course.
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cross server isnt even in the picture though. the devs have confirmed its not in development, and isnt even being discussed about development in the future.
cross server would be a huge long-term financial investment from EA, and based on their actions with this game so far they are more interested in ways to make a quick buck.
i agree cross server is the ideal solution in any case. maximize the PvP population and you decrease the odds of bad eggs ruining people's experiences.
part of my frustration is that most people are unable to differentiate between their own/their teammate's lack of skill and being beat by incredibly skilled team. in most cases, its lack of skill; however, there are groups (even 4-mans) that just steamroll you and it sucks.
i solo queue a lot. there are plenty of times where i get matched against a premade/2 premades and have a full PUG on my-side with average/less than average players. its not gonna be a fun warzone, but its like a bandaid; rip it off quick and it only stings for a sec. take your licks, collect your comms, and queue again. in that kind of situation, its just a bad match-up.
my biggest problem with this thread is that the majority of posters are in the lot that just lose a lot. they chalk it up to the other team having premades all the time. i run into this kind of player frequently; this is the guy who, after 1 score in huttball says "its a premade, lets just give up and let them score so it ends fast". to which i /facepalm. that is, sadly, what appears to be the average player in this game.
if you (everyone) are losing often, instead of blaming your opponents, place some of the blame on yourself. everyone starts out as a noob; the only way you get better is learn from all your nooby mistakes and try to not make them again. if even half of the "lets just quit" players tried to improve upon one mistake a day, warzones would improve in quality all on their own.
instead, i see players barely capable of breaking 200k damage in a full 15 minute voidstar match quite regularly. or not calling incomings in ops chat. or not using their CC to help take objectives. or any number of little mistakes that take merely a moment of thought process, but usually have insurmountable significance. ffs, most of the player base dont understand how a compass rose works.
regarding matchmaking, on a low pop server it will not make much difference. but in that case, a solo queue would be terrible; dividing the available PvP population is not a good idea. and imo, using low pop servers as benchmarks for success is not a good thing to do.
i see many people say that the solo queuer is in the majority, and better quality matches is what the majority wants. should we not then focus on improving the quality of matches for the majority of the population? which means matchmaking, which would have a significant positive impact on healthy servers. if your queue times are not short enough or the competition is overwhelming/stale, you can now transfer to a better server.
ive said these things multiple times in this thread. and it seems to go unnoticed; im sure by morning it will be buried under 4 more pages of stupid bickering and crying about something that someone has no direct control over.
The world you're calling for simply doesn't exist. There is a small percentage of people who want to be the best they can be at their hobby; the rest just don't care, or already think they ARE the best (they're not) and when things don't go right, they leave.
I wish everyone who pvped was willing and able to learn. The sad truth is they just won't, and telling them to get better or get the hell out will yield precisely that----they'll leave, and queue times will get worse.
I don't like that fact any better than you do. But it's where gaming is going, and sadly it's human nature for a lot of things. We need to accomodate those players in some way, because to them TOR is not worth being great at; it's just a silly game to screw around in, and the moment they perceive that they're being unfairly dumped in as bait for the sharks, they'll move on to something else.
I'm like you, to a point. Back before ftp when endgame pvp was really active, I'd run into a practiced premade, try my hardest, get drilled into the ground while people quit all around me, get annoyed, and soldier on. But eventually (at least on my server) the premades stompings were 2 out of every 3 matches because no one but the seasoned premades were even bothering to queue at endgame anymore.
I'm content pulling off the bandaid as you said, but when all you find underneath is another bandaid... you just stop queuing. Especially if you're only queuing for fun, not for gear grinding (which bolster has largely screwed up, but that's another subject).
Now it seems like a lot of servers are going back in that direction again. And holding up server transfers to one of only 2 pvp servers as a healthy solution is just not going to work for a lot of reasons. Many (like me) simply don't trust BW enough to give them $60+ dollars to transfer all of our toons. And even if we did... remember the Fatman? We've seen where this road leads before. Abandoning the servers with smaller pvp populations (and populations in general) to suffer hour long or nearly infinite queues is not a smart business move.
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Generally appeals to the oppositions humanity come as a last stance, after intellectual posts, sources, logical arguments prove unfruitful.
In a turn of events, I shall focus this post on things we do agree on (or I think we agree on):
1.) Cross-servers really are needed. Dev issues, server hardware, what ever aside, it's needed. Simple as that.
2.) Matchmaking is a great idea.
3.) Players should have fun (as subjective as that is) regardless of queue type or play style.
4.) Generally people should be nice to each other. I'd personally love to see some warnings/temp bans for abusive chat (whether to team mates or opponents.
5.) Queue Sync/Gaming the system to intentionally get a full premade is bad, and if intention can be proven I would favor punishment/temp bans for this behavior depending on severity.
About the only thing we don't agree on is a split-queue option for logistical (and ineffective) issues.
If its any consolation, whether these things are perceived or not I think that matchmaking should also include a queue type criteria for a decent portion of its search (5 minutes? random numbers are random.) And we should be talking 45-60 minute queues before it ever does a double premade vs a pug (assuming faction imbalance. If same faction it better be 4-man +4 pugs vs 4-man + 4 pugs.)
Edit: Just gonna add this rather than another post, and this is likely my last for today. Work tonight!
I feel a win/loss criteria will help clear this disparity. If 4 pugs end up on an equal rating as a 4 man, it's due to a continue win/loss ratio meaning either:
There is no difference between them (based on comp, coordination, and other grey areas of the 4 skilled randoms =/= 4 skilled grouped.) -or- the PuGs personal skill exceeds that of the grouped players but is equal to those 4-grouped player "group advantage."
It's a rough estimate, but it is better than first come, first serve.
Gah, Edit 2: Got to say, on an aside note that I love playing with S.O duos. Some of the most fun, relaxed, and reliable friends have been S.O's.
In fact (they're not really an S.O but...) one of my best friends and I are so in sync, half the time people assume we're partners.On this post, we're in near complete agreement. At the end of the day, you are the kind of person I would enjoy pvping either with or against.
Remember gang----I'm not saying "Boo matchmaking," or hell even "Yay separate queues!" What I'm saying is that for most of the servers out there, nothing but X-Server or general improvements to the pvp scene luring more customers back is going to do much to help. I still believe that a solo only toggle might lure more casuals and solo puggers back to the game, but you will never catch me saying it is an ideal solution. Because yes, I agree that it could sabotage the queue times for premades (if premades are given no other option) and then those players will leave instead. And on the very worst servers, it could make queues die outright as you indicated or just force the premaders to cheat the system.
At this point, I'm just trying to drive home that casuals en masse have made their preferences clear in every MMO out there. Regardless of how you interpret Blizz's post on the subject, they and Rift have taken a very public stance on the matter which is obviously intended to placate those customers.
My dream scenario is a healthy pvp population, X-server queues, an intelligent matchmaking system, AND the ability to opt out of playing against premades if that's what you want to do (without that causing anyone else to take a queue hit because there's a sustainable pool to draw from). While I'm wishing for all of that, I'd also like a pony.
Matchmaking could work; it would be great if it did. Do I trust BW to design an intelligent, well-reasoned matchmaker that accounts for win/loss, valor, gear, comp, whatever? No, I really don't. Look at Bolster. BW has a track record of doing poorly with complex systems.
Could they implement a solo toggle without screwing it up? Sure; that's monkey work.
Is either a solution right now for most servers? Probably not. Therein lies the issue.
And yes, my wife and I are usually very laid back in PvP even in the face of rampant stupidity on our team.
We do our best to try and encourage, instruct, strategize, explain and educate the less experienced pvpers, but... results vary, as I'm sure any good player who solo queues knows (there are nightmare teams of puggers out there so bad they'd make Mother Theresa start dropping F-bombs).My idea of a solution at this point would be one of these:
A) X-Server (I know... dead horse, but it's really that or bust)
B) A dedicated PvP content patch that expands options for all flavors of pvper (fix all of the bugs/exploits, bring the ACs in line with others that perform the same roles, Ranked season 1 with incentives, objectives for areas like Outlaw's Den, a TON more WZs with fun, innovative gameplay like Huttball rather than four flavors of "I don't trust my teammates so I'm stuck defending all game", leveling areas that actually intersect cross-faction and encourage dynamic same-level pvp, etc). If BW put the resources into something like that and then shouted it from the rooftops, the pvp population would boom again and options like matchmaking, separate queues, etc could be implemented with much greater ease and a minimum of discomfort for all parties.
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And believe me, Cash----I pray you're right about the new arenas and BW somehow gets it right where Blizz couldn't. I desperately hope enough people can play in that pool without getting roflstomped back to regs that the hardcore competitive pvpers gradually separate from the casuals in regs so both populations can have their fun the way they want.
Hell, I'll do it myself if they get it right and gimmicks/ comps don't become the deciding factors.
Maybe arguing about this subject is entirely pointless at the end of the day, because many servers have likely already passed the point where any kind of separation or matchmaking is going to make a difference. I just hate the thought that in order to get a PvP fix everyone is going to have to cram onto one of only two servers. It reminds me of the Fatman clamor the last time around, and everyone knows where that was headed before ftp bailed some of the water out.
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i have debated and discussed in this thread. a crap ton. and in quite a pleasant manner for the most part. that was pages and pages and pages ago. and any logical argument is almost entirely ignored.
you want a real solution to this problem? skill based matchmaking. its the only solution that is going to result in better quality warzones over time. a solo-only queue will devolve into "super-queue" groups again. ive discussed this in stupid depth, in this very thread. repeating myself, and being ignored, gets old fast. which is why im not interested in engaging blatant whining with nothing but sarcasm now. if people want to continue to just flat out whine about the same thing over and over and over again, im not going to expend much effort in debating them.
http://i.imgur.com/Cikl5VH.jpg
i posted that screenshot in this thread. its a 4-man premade (opposing team) vs a full pug group (my team). look at that screenshot, and tell me why we lost.
http://i.imgur.com/f5Dsc6P.jpg
theres another screenshot (also posted in this thread already), of a 4-man premade (opposing team) vs a full pug group (my team). care to tell me why we won?
both premades i was against in those screenshots are players that do/have done RWZ. care to explain why one PUG team got absolutely stomped, and the other was able to pull out a pretty comfortable win?
as far as arenas go, maybe it will be like RWZ, maybe it wont. heres to hoping that there is a skill based matchmaking system so new teams arent discouraged quickly.
separating the queues is not going to solve the root of this problem, which is that lower skilled players dont want to be forced to play higher skilled players. until you can accept that that is the core complaint here, and understand that separating based on skill level (and not gear, queue type, frequency of play, etc) is the only way to address that appropriately, im not going to bother debating anyone.
I understand your frustration bud, but you have to look at both sides to see the whole picture. In the end it doesn't really matter why people are clamoring for a fix to the curbstomping issues---it only matters that they are. In life, people take their business elsewhere due to their own perceptions and opinions. If that big a segment of a population perceives a problem in a business model, they will stop giving you money unless you do something about it. Trying to convince them they're wrong for X reason isn't going to change anything.
Hell, I agree with you about bad players. It irritates me to no end when I'm solo pugging or queueing with my wife and everyone else on our team is playing whack-a-mole against one tank so far from every objective that they may as well be on a different map. But those players don't try to get better, they don't come to these forums, they either have fun or they leave the game.
You say no one is reading your arguments, but I could accuse you of the same because you keep holding up the "let's do matchmaking" sign without recognizing that on many servers this simply won't change anything. Bastion and Pot5 are probably the servers least in need of a fix for this (though there are still plenty of complaints there) and those are really the only two servers that matchmaking might work on in the present state of the game.
Look, I'm not one of the rabid "premades are evil" guys here. If people want to group with friends or even just group up for tactical reasons, they have that right. I would never presume to suggest that they don't deserve that right.
Sure, there are some real a-hole premades out there that truly piss in the swimming pool and ruin it for everyone (like the guy saying he happily exploits the crap out of rollbang against regs), but I would never assume that he represents ALL premaders.
We all want the same thing, bottom line. A healthy pvp experience. Until BW sucks it up and gets to work on X-Server, it's up to us to try and make the pvp a little more accomodating for the casuals / soloers who are getting frustrated and leaving. Is that likely to happen? Probably not, because most humans don't care about the other faceless guy behind the monitor and will continue to club baby seals happily until there are no more seals to club.
Ergo, if you can't twist the casuals' arms to make them improve, then the goods need to split up so the weight of all that bad is distributed more evenly.
And you're right----beating a coordinated premade while solo pugging is a glorious feeling, and when you get more than a couple of solid players on a pug team it really can happen. But you MUST remember----not everyone plays games like these to be the best, or hell, even to be good at it. Some folks just want to relax after a crappy day and shoot at stuff, catassing around without a care in the world. There are a LOT more of those guys than there are of us.
Drive those guys away from the game, and TOR loses money, our queues get longer, and we start to leave too. We may get pissed off every time some bad ignores a capper, doesn't call inc, allows himself to be a jump-post for the enemy ball carrier or a million other things, but without that population to pad out the numbers pretty soon we'll be trading blows against the same 8 guys for a few hours a day like it was back before FTP and Makeb----and then those guys will eventually be gone too.
Is this as impending a problem on POT5 and Bastion? I don't believe so, and it may never be. But not everyone who's serious about PvP enjoys PvP servers (I don't, but that's a whole different discussion). And on those other servers, the problem is already serious and matchmaking is not going to change a thing when there aren't enough people to get even a single match to pop regularly.
This goes to show you, there will always be some who don't like it 
But I can understand that to. You are very, very used to the old way, cause like I said it was there for a year and a half.
please don't feed trolls.
In fact (they're not really an S.O but...) one of my best friends and I are so in sync, half the time people assume we're partners.
<Black Hole Gang> : Swoop Bikers on the Fringe
in Guild Recruitment
Posted
"No One Escapes a Black Hole."
If your travels take you to the sort of seedy spaceports frequented by petty gangs scrabbling for turf, where the value of a sentient life is often little greater than a bent credit chit, you may have heard the rumble of black Lhosan swoops heralding the passage of the Black Hole Gang.
Always clad in black riding leathers covered in stitched-on patches, members of the Black Hole Gang swooper club prominently display the symbol of a jagged black spiral with a stylized vrblther skull at the center. Though few in number, members of the gang are notorious for being unusually violent and unusually willing to handle even the most rotten task. Previously implicated in running blasters to several separatist factions within Republic space, the Gang swiftly found a place on numerous Republic watch lists.
Once a considerable nuisance for law enforcement and military authorities on several Outer Rim worlds, the Black Hole Gang recently suffered a setback following an SIS sting---many of the lower level soldiers and some fully patched members were arrested, and the though the Gang's leadership and chief muscle escaped direct implication, their illegal pipeline of low-grade blasters dried up.
Other petty gangs said the Black Hole had vanished... swallowed up by the void. But a new brand of premium, high-grade deathsticks recently hitting the market on Nar Shaddaa, Tatooine, Hutta and even sporadically in Imperial space have been linked to these resourceful bikers. Rumor has it that the Gang has found a new specialty trade, one far less likely to end up on Republic radar---though the brains behind these high quality deathsticks remains a mystery to all but a few.
"They're Mean as Gundarks and Twice as Likely to Charge if You Make Eye Contact."
Though the gang's few remaining members have been struggling to keep a low profile following the string of arrests, they remain easily recognizable by their swooper patches and black bikes. Feelers have gone out into the underworld looking for buyers and distributors for their new brand of deathsticks, and some of the more notoriously violent members of the Gang remain available for hire as expensive muscle.
The gang's leadership has been hesitant to recruit new patch members and prospects of late, fearing that should any of their currently jailed associates turn 'womp rat', then informants or undercover SIS could be right around the corner. But recent power struggles and setbacks in attempting to move their new product have convinced some that its worth the risk----the gang now always has its eyes open for the right sort of swoop-biking scum to carry their colors.
The Gang's 'public' facades, intact for almost a decade, remain known to underworld contacts across the Outer Rim. Word has it that anyone brave or foolish enough to seek an audience with these swoop-riding cutthroats need only reach out to "Queelo Brothers' Scrapyard" in the wastes of Tatooine or one of several swoop garages from Nar Shaddaa to Mos Ila.
OOC Info:
Who are we?
The Black Hole Gang has been a small family guild since the launch of TOR on Ebon Hawk. We've only recently begun immersing ourselves in the RP community here, but our experience RPing in other MMOs is extremely extensive. While we are presently few in number in terms of players, we have numerous distinct characters available for criminal RP of all kinds. We tend to enjoy PvP (a lot), and it's likely we'd be better recognized in that aspect of the game than any other---but we've always been RPers first and foremost, and are eager to become more involved in that part of the game.
What can we offer?
As rough-and-tumble swoop bikers, we're game for just about any criminal activity you can conceive. Need a couple extra enforcers / bodyguards / muscle for a shipment, meeting, party or other function? We're happy to oblige, and game to partake in any form of conflict resolution that may arise. Need suppliers of premium deathsticks? The Black Hole Gang has recently come to the market with an extremely pure derivative of the balo mushroom, one that has customers begging for more. Need an enemy or nuisance taught a lesson? We have goons just itching for a fight. Need a small shipment of guns, spice or other commodity transported at speed planet-side? Those bikes aren't just for show.
What are we looking for in a potential member?
Historically the Black Hole Gang has been a small guild that partakes in PvP, PvE and RP with equal enjoyment. We're self starters who are happy to throw ourselves into any aspect of the game. As we've become more involved with the RP community, we've finally decided to open recruitment to others with a similar frame of mind. What we're looking for are mature adults who enjoy all aspects of the game and are eager to RP a rowdy, tough-as-nails swoop biker.
While we do try to run regular RP outings ranging from exchanges with other criminal guilds to dealing deathsticks at high traffic hotspots to stand-alone episodic events and gang meetings, we're also happy to simply get together and engage in social hijinks amongst ourselves at the drop of a hat. It's important to point out that as players, we also greatly enjoy the game's PvP and PvE content and so we'd ideally want players of a like mind. While we will provide RP content as much as possible, we can't promise to hold everyone's hand on an hourly basis.
We're not aiming for a huge guild where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. What we hope to have is a relatively small, tight-knit group of scum and villains that regularly interact and are quickly recognizable.
Candidates MUST own a black swoop bike (ideally a Lhosan Manta or Hyrotii Racer, but any black swoop bike is acceptable) and your character must wear some mix of black and/or dark gray. Vests/jackets/swooper gear is ideal, but we're open to anything that looks cool.
Contact Us:
If you're interested in employing the Black Hole Gang or reaching out to us to inquire about possible membership, the Gang owns several legitimate front businesses that can be contacted, per above. Simply send a tell to one of the following characters (your choice if you want to commlink us IC or inquire OOC) and we'll go from there: Gorax, Rotor, Z-Flare, Vor-Voon, Julilla, Velshia, Longspur. Alternatively, you can post here and we'll follow up with you in-game.