[Dunno if 1.2 is enough to re-sub. Way too late of a change?]

Like anyone else, I have had great hopes for SWTOR. After couple months of playing, it was sad to see that SWTOR, mechanically, had nothing different to offer than any other MMO that is out there. It's a copy-paste product that disguises itself under different colors.

 

My opinion is still the same, and as a long time MMO player I have had enough with the carrot on a stick approach in MMO's. I was hoping that BW would be brave enough to bring in innovations into the genre, but have failed to do so IMO. Now with the patch 1.2, they are changing lots of things. Most agree that some of this stuff should have been included on the release date but nevertheless it is almost here.

 

The changes to PVP are promising. Skill over gear is a great approach that will change the playing grounds, and cut the resentment (anger) that many players may feel exists. Players being rewarded for their playtime and gaining gear according to it (and with luck, as the RNG was the most stupidest thing to put in for obtaining gear) was a bad call and more than anything, very frustrating. This is a plus IMO that could potentially get myself back into the game.

 

I am not a PVE person (besides leveling) and changes or additions to operations/flashpoint's means not much to me. While I can see the appeal of it to many people, it is basically the same old carrot on a stick formula, that in the end grants you nothing but fancy looking stuff. Doing PVE content (talking about ops/FP's) requires lots of arrangements, like scheduling your play time with friends, getting your consumables etc. While many may have enough time in their hands to do so, for a person like myself, who has limited time as well as nontraditional working hours, the effort is mostly just waste of time. Eventually it is just a rinse and repeat to obtain a piece of gear that will be replaced very shortly. All we gain is higher stats, a different look and a story, that we won't care after completing it once.

 

So at this point, PVP changes are the only reason why I may consider signing up again. While people with time may have access to higher gear faster, the mostly even warzone's could increase the potential of fun in PVP. The problem is, all these changes, they aren't innovative, because SWTOR isn't a innovative game to start with. So what BW is doing is just adjusting the numbers in a formula that has been used in years in same formula MMO's to begin with.

 

So I am not sure what to do. There are many other games coming out that could be much more fun to play, including MMO's. Until then, these changes could potentially make me re-sub. But I feel, the only thing that could keep me potentially as a long time customer to SWTOR requires innovation, that I fear would be very hard to accomplish as SWTOR's fundamental core mechanics could not support innovation in the genre.

 

These are my thoughts on the current upcoming changes. Lets share some of your thoughts on these!

[What are the things that made you stop playing?]

I'm still playing but I don't play nearly as much as I used too. BioWare does a pretty good job of "hiding the grind," at first, but once it comes out of hiding... Well, progression gets old, fast. I've only got one fifty and the reason I don't have three or four is, well, boredom. The first time through as empire and republic are pretty good. After that?

 

The biggest thing I like about mumorpugers are "options." As part of their diabolical scheme to get us to keep paying to keep playing, they provide players with options. In early WoW, while leveling, I had two continents to choose from. At points even multiple zones within each continent. In WAR I had three "fronts." TOR? One

 

Yep, Electronic Arts biggest development project ever and they only have one pve progression path per faction. Six years, eight hundred people, and almost two hundred million and they only made one pve path per faction? BioWare thought they could make WoW more accessible and all they did instead was dumb it down so much that I have to actively search for reasons to keep playing and keep paying.

 

It took over six months for me to get to this point with WoW and, not counting Beta, almost as much with WAR. TOR? Freaking weeks. Weeks? Even I am surprised by that realization.

 

Right now that reason is my guild. A good bunch and I group with a couple pretty frequently. Yeah server pop and guild activity both seem to have nosedived but I still want to help my guilders. So I log in for a couple hours a day and frequently visit TOR's "official" site, hoping for BioWare to show some clue that they finally "get it."

 

And are going to use those eight hundred people to do something about it.

 

Not much to add here, well said. I agree with you on everything, and while I understand developing a MMO is very complicated, with all the names that were attached to SWTOR's development (and the available finances) the end result is just... meh.

[What are the things that made you stop playing?]

The biggest thing for me was playing in general beta. Seeing very little, if any communication with the testers, then being told we were basically just there to stress test. None of the concerns were addressed that we had and the game went live. Now people are complaining and asking for things that should have been done over a year ago when we raised concerns about them.

 

Another thing is, the game is released a few weeks before 2012 so it's basically a 2012 released game. It doesn't feel like it though. It feels like I'm playing a game from 5 or 6 years ago. BW were lazy with SWTOR. Today an mmo must have all of the features the giant has and then bring more to the table for me. Gotta shake it up, take a chance to be different. BW chose to play it safe, added VO and made a WoW'ish type of game with nothing but Battlegrounds and pve dungeon grinds. There's absolutely nothing else to do endgame but these two things unless you like playing mario bros to get datacrons. There's no exploring, because they make you walk their road. The game doesn't feel alive. It feels and looks like a dead world every world I go to. No npc's roaming about doing their daily business, no animals roaming about, no world events happening....Heck even Asheron's Call 1 had so much more to do and that's a really old game.

 

Orbital stations and load screens galore...I could go on about those but we all know how annoying, useless, and unnecessary they are.

 

I have been playing online games since Ultima online in the 90s and games like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, had so much more fun things to do than SWTOR and those games are over a decade old each. Those games had more going for them at release than SWTOR. I played WoW for only a couple of years and never bothered to resub back, so people can't use that against me thinking I'm some kind of Blizz fanboi err girl

 

It's just sad that todays games are a rehash of WoW and no one has came up with anything better since the older games that were so much better.

 

Perhaps Planetside 2, Guild Wars 2, and maybe even Titan will become the next generation in mmo gaming. I know I'd love to see something new for mmo's that comes out that isn't just a rehash of a 2004 mmo with a different skin.

 

Yeah I agree with you there. I don't like to compare the past to today's MMO's. Only because, there is no game that will give me the same feelings as UO did. My first MMO, and the friends I've build in that game still exists today. What I am trying to say is, it would be unfair to compare UO to anything else, at least for me.

 

That being said, I am looking forward to GW2, and will monitor Titan closely as well. However, if Titan turns out to be anything similar to WOW ( or SWTOR in this case) I will not be playing it.

 

[What are the things that made you stop playing?]

Well, if you want to get ahead in anything you have to grind. You have to spend a significant amount of energy at the cost of yourself. That's life in general. But I don't really think it's the grind, it's the lack of variety in the grind. Raid or pvp or the game pretty much stops.

 

That might be a false illusion. On a personal level, I do have higher success rate in games when I am more relaxed (especially in FPS's). This can be applied in real life as well. I do better at my job after a good weekend spend resting.

 

I agree to a certain degree that the variety is an issue, but I am ok with it as I don't have too much time to dedicate to SWTOR. The problem I have is, I'd like to have the feeling of equal grounds in a battlefield (as I am more PVP focused) without the need of gear factoring in. This is more valuable for me as I would like to feel my failure in any given fighting scenario is more related to my skill than my opponents gear.

 

A fight should be decided by skill, not by what we wear.

[Why are so many people saying this game is bad?]

No one is really in a position to dictate what is, and what isn't, realistic. Except that is, the devs.

 

This isn't 2004, this is 2012. Manufacturers who cannot compete with TODAY's competition, but instead can only compete with the competition as it stood back in 2004, really don't stand much of a chance unless they quickly adapt.

 

The funny thing is, whilst Bioware and their forum defenders focus on WoW, certain MMO's that came before WoW actually had MORE depth in certain areas than TOR currently has. And they hadn't been running for 8 years back in 2004.

 

The moral is:

WoW isn't the only standard to aspire to. History has shown that the "WoW formula" works for one game: WoW.

 

All other products that focused purely on copying WoW and only WoW, flopped because whilst THEY were chasing that WoW "pot of gold", their customers were looking elsewhere.

 

 

Well said and I agree with your sentiment. I've already played WOW, why should I play the same game again just in different setting?

 

The first couple months were exciting, but it dies quick once you realize there is nothing in SWTOR that wasn't in WOW.

 

What is even more disappointing is that after all the finances that was put into creating the game, I was hoping for new things that could innovate the genre (especially having Bioware behind its creation). But that fell flat as well.

 

Overall, I am disappointed, and a purple/white glow stick is not going to get me back in.

[What are the things that made you stop playing?]

It's been only 3 months, but I am personally done with SWTOR. I haven't launched the game for the past 3-4 weeks.

 

For me one thing is... well the grind. Grinding for items, grinding for credits etc. The problem is, I've done it for years in different games, and it was the most boring aspect of any MMO I've played. Now I know some may say that MMO's are meant to be a grind fest. I'd argue that just because we have been given this formula, it doesn't mean that we should just stick with that formula as well. Innovation is where it's at!

 

There are many other MMO's that have tried the proven successful business model of X company, but if MMO's are meant to be grind fest, how come most of these games that tried the same model have failed?

 

Grinding in MMO's create resentment, between the people who have the time to grind and those who don't. Because many things rely on RNG and numbers, especially in PVP environment, skill factor is mostly irrelevant.

 

To me, Swtor didn't change anything. It is what I have done in the past, just in different colors. And that is why I feel no will to play or launch the game. What reasons do you have that makes you not want to play?

[What is the REAL deal with WIFI gaming...]

Using WIFI on my laptop playing SWTOR. No issues here. Perhaps slightly higher latency compared to wired connection, but nothing noticeable that affects my gaming experience (between 40ms/70ms latency basically)

 

I've been playing WIFI since I got this laptop (2 years ago) and have no issues playing any games online, including BF3 and many other games.

 

My ISP is Timewarner Roadrunner/Turbo.

[MMO's, Where did it all go wrong? (long)]

I believe there are couple games that actually was released for a hardcore audience.

 

The problem is, when you guys mention things like these you forget about people with responsibilities.

 

A lot of gamer's today are working class people. They have limited time, and limited responsibilities. It is almost impossible to be able to play 3-4 hours without any interference. When adult life hits, friendships decline, or at least the time that is spend together with friends. Everyone has a schedule that they need to fit and entertainment time is limited.

 

When I see a post like yours I automatically assume that either you are rich enough to afford playing a game nonstop, or you just don't have the responsibilities.

 

The thing is, working class have the means to pay for a game and continue playing it. If a MMO is not satisfying the customer in a shorter time period, there is no need to pay for it.

[Casual pvp players reaching 50]

I don't see anything wrong with the idea of skill being the defining factor in winning battles. it has less frustration, less luck factor involved, and distinctly defines players and their skills.

 

I think a successful game in competitive environment should encourage players to get better by playing and practicing, rather than defining it with the time spend/gear obtained.

 

This would take the load off of developers as they would have more time creating new environment, than creating a new bracket/tier/gear every 3-6 months.

[PVP WZ daily completed after only 2 wins??]

So today I finished my PVP daily after winning only 2 games in a row, down from required 3 games.

 

I feel this happened to me before the patch was implemented as well. Now I am certainly not complaining about this, but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this.

[MMO's, Where did it all go wrong? (long)]

I have to disagree with the OP. I remember playing vanilla WOW the first time it was launched. After a year of gaming, With family, work etc. I was unable to progress any further than I could.

 

When BG's were implemented I was constantly getting 2-3 shotted because of the non existent PVP gear. Raiding felt like a job, which I didn't have the qualifications to have that job (which is funny, as I have never seen Ragnaros in raid as the content was not accessible to me).

 

I hated it, I quit, until Burning Crusade, which separated PVP gear. The game become finally fun for me after 2 years, where I could obtain things on my own pace, and compete in PVP.

 

To a certain degree, I do agree that games overall have much lower skill requirements. They are still fun, but not as challenging. The current problem with MMO's is not that there isn't challenging environment, but rather the challenge rewards the player with most time over most skill.

 

Any MMO that could potentially differentiate this will be the next winner, the next gen MMO. When PVP is focused on numbers and RNG, with little luck, you could compensate your lack of skill with better numbers. This may bring some satisfaction to the players, but not every bad player can have good luck to have the items they need to fulfill their lack of skill. If you are bad at this type of games, and if you lack the time to devote, you can only play it so long before giving up.

 

A game like counter-strike, where every player can have access to everything, the difference is made by skill. This is why the game is still successful, even with minor changes for the past 10 years. You can lose it, but its not because you don't have the gear, or the items, but because you've made a mistake or was not being careful.

 

The future of MMO's will not have RNG's, gear that gives you stats, or basically, a carrot on a stick. The future MMO's will create a playing field where skill will be above anything else.

 

This will appeal to both hardcore and casual gamers, as they can hop in whenever they can or want to, play their game without being frustrated, feeling tired or feeling the need to give up.

 

Competition when not on equal grounds, will always lead to resentment, even if it's just a game.

[Sage vs Shadow for solo leveling?]

I leveled my main as a shadow inf spec, and had no trouble dealing with mobs. CC with Mind maze, take the adds out, focus on the boss.

 

I used combat technique during boss fights with Theran, but any other mobs, shadow technique is fine. I don't use Nadia. While she is a decent DPS, healing after fights takes longer than killing mobs with Theran as he keeps you up at all times.

 

Shadow Inf tree is a very fun build (but extremely squishy) that requires fast decision making. If you like moving around your targets, or keeping your enemies under control (CC) it is certainly worth playing it.

[I really wish Bioware could distance themselves from EA.]

Search has HUGE server overhead. And this forum has huge load almost all day every day. there is a reason for these kinds of decisions, you know.

 

i love hoe people think devs make decisions out of spite. I can PROMISE you everyone at BW and EA making decisions is smarter then you are. Just because the reason for some decisions is not readily apparent to you, does not make them any less advisable.

 

For example, the topic of this thread. EA gave BW the money to make this game happen in the first place. Perhaps an adequate analogous would be your dad buying you a car - if he wants to use it to get groceries, guess what, he gets to use the car he payed for. Before taking your dads free car you could make him sign a contract, stipulating the limitations of his use of the car, like BW did with TOR, but for better or worse EA are here to stay for a fair amount of the decision making. And rightfully so.

 

the alternative of course, is no car/TOR at all.

 

 

Driving this car that my dad bought me... I feel like my dad is actually trying to kill me. The brakes are still not functioning (I think they forget to put them in), and last week (tuesday specifically) my steering wheel came of while I was driving 60 miles/hour.

 

At this point I should talk to my dad and pressure him to make sure that he sends the car back to the mechanic... unless he wants me dead.

[De-sync and position delay!]

This happens to me also when pvping, any fixes comming soon?

 

 

Not sure as of yet. PTR does not mention anything about it, nor is there a post from BW that acknowledges this issue.

 

When combined with overall WZ frame rate issues, ability delay, and with the casting animations for certain classes (Jedi Shadow in my case, which almost every melee ability has a casting animation) this can be a very frustrating experience.

 

I also believe that this should be prioritized by BW as it is, currently PVP endgame is the only thing that many players do. I see myself as a very patient person, but when the fun is taken out of my experience, my patience will not last forever.

[De-sync and position delay!]

/bump

[De-sync and position delay!]

As a Jedi Shadow I experience this issue constantly. Whenever I use a stun on the target and move in to apply some melee damages my abilities do not go off and after the stun is up the target suddenly appears further away from where it was normally seen on my screen. This causes massive amount of DPS loss that could change the outcome of the situation, and even the outcome of given Warzone.

 

Now that BW is working on fixing the ability delay with the coming downtime, I am curious if they have recognized this issue as well.

 

This happens to many other classes as well, and requires a fix as soon as possible, as it changes the outcome of WZ's, and causes a very frustrating experience.

 

If you are experiencing this problem as well, please feel free to comment and add your input so we can have our voice heard.

[I am not /quit ing thread.]

Not quiting. Love the game love the PVP even thou the lag in wz's are annoying. I made great friends thanks to the lack of LFG which enforced me to communicate.

 

Besides, lightsaber's kick butt!

[Missing Unsubscribe Button Unacceptable]

Well I am happy with the current product and will wait to see BW fix the issues/bugs. It is unfortunate that BW has chosen to work with EA. on the other hand BW seems to be eager to fix the issues but if it takes too long I will be canceling my account.

 

It would be great to see BW stand against SOPA as I believe it would gain appreciation as well as new customers.

[Casual = Happy and Re-Subscribing; Hardcore = Rage Quit]

Really? Examples please.

 

Other than WoW, all other subscriber-based MMO's fail on this format. And WoW was not nearly as casual when it was building its subscriber-base. If it had been as casual as it is now when it released, it never would have been half as popular.

 

 

Wrong, Vanilla wow was changed after about a year, when casuals had no way to progress any further, as raiding required commitment that was not doable by the working people, families etc.

 

After a year the game started going down hill, until finally Blizz gave up and introduced casual content to the players, as well as potential progress for casuals trough pvp. Even then, that progress took forever, and was not enough for many. PVP was not fun with only PVE gear, as those who couldn't raid got 1-2 shotted at all times, even at max level.

 

Man games were released that focused on hardcore gaming, like Vanguard, but did not survive.

 

Perhaps what hardcore players has to realize is that, many gamer's from the past today are working long hours, having families, and facing the responsibilities that life brings. These people still want to game, but if the game they play doesn't appeal on their lifestyle, they stop paying. These people can be relied on (they have money), they don't demand new content every other week (eases up the work load on developers) and don't judge a game with its cover (as they have played many games in the past, and can be patient and wait for the flaws to be fixed). Many older gamers nowadays sees gaming also as a family activity. If an MMO is going to require me and my son to play 6 hours a day to have some kind of a gear, I am not going to play that. However, I could play Starwars, do some quests together with my son, while having some snacks, and get some satisfaction out of it in a short period of time. This is more suitable to me than a game that would demand unrealistic devotion.

 

I suspect many people who insult casuals have not experienced what it is like to have responsibilities, and fairly so, are ignorant to the reality. Most of the time, growing up fixes this.

[Level 50 and?]

So lets see u go lvl 50 u finish all the class quest and u do some flashpoints u play warzones and u get pvp gear. Ok good now what? Do u have any other normal quests? and if u do what is the point to make them since u r already 50 with full light side or dark side points? Warzones get bored sometimes if u do them allday and open world pvp suck coz no reward :/

 

I mean shouldnt be smth more intresting like hmm have the Best guild from each side which will be decided by some guilds pvp with the other faction etc. A new system of team work pvp which has reward or smth. Mayve smth like hmm take common planet every week or so that guilds from each side can take by defeating guilds on the other side. This will be available once every 2 weeks the winner guild will have some rewards etc from this planet. I see no reason to play a game when there are 2 sides and u cant see which is better.

 

What s ur opinion guys?

 

I think you should take a break from the game and continue your education.

[Voss quest design team.]

I actually enjoyed Voss with my Jedi Shadow. It was a nice chance of pace after Hoth. I don't see what the problem is.

[BioWare: "most" people aren't having SWTOR performance issues]

Bull crap Ohlen. I've lost track of the numbers of players with extremely high-end machines complaining about exactly the problem described in the article.

 

So Bioware's stance is simply going to be to deny the issue exists and foist it off on "low-end machines?" My i7 with 12 gigs of RAM and HD6970 would like a word with you, Mr. Ohlen.

 

well, my laptop with only 6 gigs of memory, with Radeon Mobility 5870 and my i7 likes to have a word with you as well. I run the game perfectly fine without any issues, besides known bugs. My longest loading screen is maybe a minute, and having turned off shadows, I have no FPS issues whatsoever.

 

Ever thought that perhaps the problem is on your end?

[So...]

Lalalalalalalalallalala

 

firstworldproblems!

[Lucas should watch and learn from BW's in game cinematics!]

nuff said.

 

BW did a great job with the SWTOR cinematics. I wish Lucas could used that to his advantage sometime in the future.

 

Anyone else agree/disagree and why?

[So, which class has the best/worst companions and best/worst story?]

Jedi Shadow here (inf tree all the way). Only use my third companion as I need more healing than using a tank to hold aggro. my DPS companions do shorten the time of killing mobs, but it requires me to heal myself end them afterwards, which is repetitive, therefore having a healer is much better. I don't like the first companion, and I think he is poorly done. my 5th companion just didn't feel like we were having anything in common, until the end of the quest line where he suddenly wanted to join me... I don't feel connected to the 5th companion at all, and therefore is no use to me.

 

The story line is very well done. The first chapter had a great climax where if you aren't careful your special ability could give you lots of trouble at the end. It also made me care as it was full of mysteries till the climax. Very well done overall.

 

I haven't finished the second chapter, but I do think I know who the 6th companion is going to be. I am excited as it feels it will be a great addition to the team. The little twist so far was unexpected but very surprising and enjoyable. I can't wait to see where it will lead.

 

I also played some alts as well. I like the Smuggler storyline so far. Very true to the movies roots and to a certain character in the movies. Especially if you play it as a female character. Lots of great dialog options that makes the story fun and certainly adds an immense immersion to it.

 

BH has an interesting storyline. First companion is fine, but feels... way to light sided if that makes sense. Male voice acting is amazing, and nothing beats his ******ery.

 

I think overall BW has proven once more that they can write great stories that fits the overall setting very well. Once again BW did not dissapoint. Lets hope they will keep up the good work!