Yutaa
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Posts posted by Yutaa
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Pardon me, far be it from me to question studies that counter other studies, but have you noticed the high MMO turnover lately?
Maybe the old tricks just aren't working as well as they used to.
He just don't understand what is he speaking about.
Providing those links is like saying that "space combat game should be like in SWTOR, here are researches about MMO addiction so SWTOR implementation is how it should be".
Or even like "here some researches, PVE should be line in Lineage". Stupid.
Yes people are addictive to their avatars. Yes, "small reward" conception works. No, this has nothing to do with competitive PVP.
I like how somebody in this thread says that there is like "nascar" vs. "drag racing".
Guess what is more popular and why.
Its great to develop your car, to improve it and everything.
But when you start racing (and not only in a straight line over a measured distance) again and again and again - you will need even field.
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I simply said some guy at BW was entrusted with a lot of money to make the pvp we currently have in swotr and chances are , since they trusted him, he knew what the majority wanted.
Ilum, class balance, win based dailies and RNG bags? Oh cmon...
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It could have worked, though. If WoW, for example, had applied its BoA gear with the xp stats for alts to pvp as well and left it at that, a few fancy titles, and some stat neutral pretties, it would have been fine. I would have liked it, anyway.
At least I think it would have worked for most people. There are subconscious undercurrents MMO devs are playing with thanks to their trained psychiatrists and sociologists that most of us know very little about. It's probably a graduate degree's worth of study just to begin to figure out what drives us to play what we play and how we play.
There are studies. And those studies shows that this approach didn't work for PVP. Plain and simple. People want fair playfield. They stop playing even if thay have advantage based on something besides skill.
But nooooo.....
Anyway, eventually this will change. Like they change PVE. If in 2003 anyone will come with the idea "hm, why I need to kill 100000000 mobs to get new skill level" what will MMO "vets" say?
"Its called MMORPG noob, I'm developing my character, go back to..."
But than Blizzard comes with zillions of quests. Most of them were stupid "kill 10 rabits" but still.
And now we have storyline based leveling and so on.
Same will happen with PVP in MMORPG someday. Actaully already happening - GW2. (I just hate fantasy setting and was waiting for this fcking SWTOR for years).
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If you do not want a competition based on skill (I.E. - balanced sides) you are in the minority. That is totally fine. However, because they want to make money, BW will cater to the majority. The majority of people want a skill based competition, not a gear based competition. As proof, look at all multiplayer games (RL and virtual) throughout all of human history. A VAST majority of them have a "level playing field" where the competition is based on skill and nothing else. Most people want skill based competition. You simple happen to not be one of those people. That is totally fine, everyone is different is some way.
People really need those carrots in PVE. People need that "character progression".
So they come with "we should reward our customers" idea. Skinner's box. "Every action should be rewarded"
And that really works for PVE!
Than some bright idiot in Blizzard (ok all this started before WOW but hey everyone punching Blizzard is welcome here, right?) come with this idea - what if we do the same in PVP?
What if one player will have advantage over the other just because they play more? Even if they pay the same ammount of money? Those defective noobs will just play more to close the gap, they will be ours forever.
It didn't work,iIt just didn't work.
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I intentionally play gear-based PvP in SWTOR, I intentionally played skill-based PvP in CoD, I intentionally play simulations in simulator games, I intentionally play chess without expecting to be able to shoot my opponent or poke them with a sword. There are different games for different types of gameplay. Why you would want to make SWTOR "just like GW2" instead of simply playing GW2 itself is beyond me.
I want to play GCD-based competitive PVP game. Game that reward situation awarness and so on. No, I don't want to play COD, its aim based. Same for everything else.
And I want it bevause I like this type of games. And I want it in SWTOR because I like the universe, because I like few other aspects of SWTOR, because I like the setting.
The more interesting question is - why I shouldn't want to make SWTOR better game.
Why if I don't like something I'm should go to GW2? Or "go back to WOW" or whatever.
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TOR launched on the same day for everyone.... A game can be any damn thing it wants, and a competition can be to polish your knob for all I care. It is what it is, and some people like it that way.
Blablabla.
So there is zero examples and insult is your only argument.
"That is why you fail"©.
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This is a problem with making your argument with analogies, it's dumb and it usually devolves into dumber analogies.
When someone comes with an analogy you can't argue with what will you do?
Yeah I know I know - "all analogies are dumb".
But lets pretend this analogy is dumb. And lets pretend "american football" analogy (multiplayer, two teams, different classes) analogy is dumb as well. Hey lets even pretend that GW and GW2 doesn't exist.
Whats your justification of having gear progression in SWTOR?
"Its essential part of RPG" - WZs are not RPG. And plz don't tell me that space fights in SWTOR is RPG.
Skinner's box? It's not and this approach fails in any other competitive PVP game. There is zero competitive PVP games (online or reallife) with any kind of disadvantage besides skill.
Ah...that how WOW did it? Even if thats the reason this days Blizazard do everything to reduce gear gap as fast as possible.
So...why?
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I give you 100 million dollars and tell you make an MMO. You decide to make this MMO similar to WOW, EQ, AC, AQ.... and about another 50 MMO's except not like GW. You do this because it's 100 million dollars and you firgure so many people over the past 15 years have bought and played these other 50 MMOs so chances are if you make them like this those same people will play again.
MMO may mean Massively Mutiplayer online but I say you are a champ.. have you won an accredited championship in some competitive sport or whatnot? Maybe not but I still want to call you a champ because at least you know games should be fair and balanced like Chess.
We can argue about semantics but at the end of this sillyness it will still be 100 million invested in an MMO must make an MMO that enough people who play MMOs will buy.
False argument. Yes they were looking at WOW while making SWTOR. What was the best part of WOW gaming experience? PVE. And what was the worst part? PVP.
What BW did did with PVE? They try to improve it. At least they improve leveling - storyline, voice...
What did they do with the worst part of WOW? Copy/paste. They actually even make it worse with RNG bags and Ilum.
So - all this "this is how it was done in successfull MMO" is not a justification itself.
If that MMO was succesfull because of the way it implements PVP - yeah, there are reasons to copy that with few improvements. But if that MMO was successfull despite of PVP implementation...not you shouldn't reproduce failures.
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@OP: A very good read, but a bad analogy. Chess, along with myriad of other games, is purely skill-based - both sides start with exactly the same set of pieces and the best (more skilled) player wins. RPG games (not just MMO, but pretty much every one of them all the way back to good old D&D) have a distinct feature of character progression via levels and gear. Skill is really no even applicable here, because these games are so easy to play...unless you count having two brain cells still firing as "skill". It's more about time spent playing, which results in higher level and/or better gear, which results in a more powerful toon. Sure, you can let everybody start at max level and mail them the same set of end-game gear, but that won't be an RPG any more, at least not in a traditional sense.
Oh cmon. I'm speaking about PVP only. There is no RPG in warzones. And there was not RPG in WOW arenas.
Think about this as "american football". Two team, 11 players, 3 different classes (at least).
I failed to see why one of the team should start with baseball bats.
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Apples to oranges.
No, PVP to PVP.
Lots of games reward early success. King of the hill, scum/a-hole.False. When you start "King of the hill" you have equal oppotunities. This game rewards early success _in the same game_. And if you are off the hill - you lose all privileges. Same when the game is over.
Don't pretend that there's only one valid type of game. If you want to play a game like that, then GO FRIGGIN DO IT. Stop trying to ruin it for everybody else who LIKES THIS KIND OF GAME.
Yes, this is the only valid type of games to be successfull in competitive enviroment.
But you can always prove that I'm wrong by the example of succesfull massive competitive game with gear progression.
PROTIP: war is not a game.
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First, its chess not chest. Second there is a HUGE difference between "I can play X" and "I can play X at a professional level." How many church and youth league basketball teams produce pro-players? Do I have to have a global ELO rating to enjoy playing chess with my friends?
You're basically saying that all/most hard core players only succeed because of their gear and I don't believe that is remotely true.
What I'm saying is - the whole idea "my pawns are stronger than yours when we play against each other" is stupid. There is no justification for that approach.
Skinner's box doesn't work for PVP this way, period.
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Your analogy is great but your logic is misplaced.
This is an MMO . As such you must forget chess or any game with balanced sides and accept there will always be unbalanced sides.
MMO is Massive Multiplayer Online game. Playing chess online is at least MO - Multiplayer and Online. As for massive - WZs are not "massive". So no, my logic was not misplaced.
If you want balanced sides at every point of teh game then play FPS.GW2. Gear progression in massive PVP (WvWvW). Gear progression in PVE. Equal conditions for skill based PVP (rated WZs in SWTOR).
Again. There is no real reason why it was done this way in SWTOR. If there was, if there any logic behind that - please enlight me.
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english is not my even 2nd language so sorry for mistakes...
This is once again about gear progression in PVP.
- "Hey Bioware, can I play chess with my friends using your online service?
- "Of cause you can! We will give special color for your queen and title Founder."
- "Probably there is a bag. I start the game and all I have is pawns and king. And my chessboard looks dirty."
- "Working as intended. You didn't play enough to earn the right to use other figures. They will be your reward as you progress with this game. You will feel yourself more powerfull.
Also you know....learning curve. You should practice with pawns and learn how to use them before you start with other figures"
- "But I do understand how to move pawns, its pretty easy. Actually its not about "how", its about "when". And I can't learn when to use them if I didn't have full set of figures."
- "Don't be a ********."
.....
- "I'm playing with rivals and they have almost all figures. And no wonder - I'm losing."
- "Thats right. But you can always win if you are skilled. Chess is all about skill."
- "You just mention that I can't use other figures because I'm not skilled...learning curve blablabla."
- "Don't be a ********."
600 matches later.
- "Ok I "earn the right" to use all figures. It was not fun but I did it. Can I play normal chess now?"
- "Sure"
- "I just found a bug in your game. My pawn was not able to take some other player pawns. Funny guy, plays like **** but has a title "chessmaster"
- "Working as intended."
- "***?????!!!!"
_ "This is called progression. We think that chess as a game isn't funny enough by itself to keep you playing. So we deside to reward players".
- "Ok I got this, thats why that idiot have chessmaster title. Doesn't make much sense though... But anyway - why again I can't take his pawns with my pawns?"
- "Figure progression. Chess is all about improving. We must continue to reward you for your efforts. We are improving your game experience..."
- "********"
- "Players fill that they don't have any reasons to play if there is no reward in terms of advantage over other players..."
- "********. They fill that way because you train them to fill like that. Also there are studies that shows that in long run players don't like that mechanics and think its unfair".
- "Ok I will tell you the truth. We did this because this is how it was done in some other online game.
I can't tell you the name of that game but WoW it was really successfull and has some kind of chess as a part of the game. They even think it will become some kind of sport..."
- "Hm never play it. Was that implementation really successfull?"
- "No."
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To those of you who think gear progression is an old concept in competitive multiplayer games, could you please list the oldest game you can think of with gear progression in competitive multiplayer?
War?
Just kidding...
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One single word: leaderboards
Apparently this word spells doom for everyone using your argument because no one has at any point in this thread even dropped a hint as to how leaderboards would not fill the role of enticement for PvPers. Leaderboards solves all your problems.
You hear that BW? Is seems like pretty universal agreement that Leaderboards fixes this mess.
And here is the answer:
"Oh wait so I spend 8 hours a day for 3 monthes and this stupid game still thinks I'm bad????!!!!! And somebody who just join it was able to beat me? Mom! Unsub me!"
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The actually fact you don't have to anything but target someone and press a button. If you had to aim there is some skill there. In mmo's you target and press button and hope the rolls go in your favor.
In chess all you need to do is to just move figures. You may spend literally hours to make 50 moves.
Definitly chess is not skill based game.
Oh dear....
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That's not true. PvP does get harder as time goes on. If you relate the opposing team to MoBs as you gain levels, the opposing team gains HP and does higher dmg, has more abilities etc.
When you hit 50 to when you are geared BM, the opponents are doing the same exact thing.
Basically you need to think of it as while you are progressing, so are your opponents in PvP both in skill and gear. Thus PvP does get progressively harder as time goes on.
The opposing team is not mobs. It players. So for a long period of time some other players have advantage over you. And its not skill based.
You need to spend 200+ hours to overcome this disadvantage. Only after 200+ hours you can start to participate in fair play.
Sound so fair....
This is what I call stupid game design. Looks like GW2 share this idea.
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I ask you again why do I have to do it for pve? You sound like you are ok for pve to be gated but for pvp, how dare you? Same concept, its gated.
I don't care about PVE.
May be, just may be, they found that they can't keep players in PVE without gear progression. May be gear progresson is the only way to keep players in PVE for long time...
May be PVE is sooo boring that without this extra carrot ppl with just quit.
May be while its fun to win WZ again and again its just not that fun to beat the same boss again and again without gear progression.
No idea and I don't care. But I can see that the same approach didn't work for PVP. PVP and PVE are two completely different aspects of the game, so they should be addressed in different ways.
Just to be clear, PVP is not better. They just different.
Now back to my question - why I need to spend 200+ hours for something I don't like just to be able to play with my friends?
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I don't need a crutch but I need progression if i want to play a mmo. Why are we changing how mmo's work? I don't care if its gear or new abilities I want new toys to play with. Thats how d&d worked and mmo's are digital copies of d&d.
So you don't need progression when you play chess. Or baseball, or basketball, or poker, or CS, or whatever else you name it. But PVP in SWTOR is sooo different.
I mean you can enjoy every minute of CS fight without gear difference. But as for SWTOR WZs - nope, you can't.
Oh man...
And I will ask again. And this is completely fcking practical question. Why do I need to spend 100+ hours for some **** called leveling and 100+ hors for some **** called gearing to join my friends in PVP?
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We do it for pve, why does it matter for pvp?
You mean I can do some competitive PVP without spending 100+ hours leveling and 100+ hours gearing? You are right!!! I can do that...in GW2.
But not in SWTOR.
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There is no fair play when by default there is a rock, paper, scissors design. Class imbalance from the designers can only be overcome by stats.
Lets fix that.
Oh wait...no lets make it worse by "gear progression".
Hey friend do you want to join us? Spend 100+ hours leveling 100+ hours "gearing" and you are welcome bro! Where are you going???
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Once you put enough hours into them its no fun. I like to make my toon better. In those other games as soon as I log off I have to start from scratch again.
False. Its still fun. And you are becoming better player when you play. And no unless you do some personal brainwash you didn't start from stratch.
Example - starcraft. I didn't start from "bronze" every time I login.
Single player games are no fun since the content is static and never changes while people strategies in mmo evolve over time.Hm..chess. Is it static? Did chess strategies evovle over time? Do you still want that extra bishop?
Ok I got it, "fair play" conception is just not for you.
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Are they really getting tired? Did not people have fun leveling their character? Improving your character is the best part of a mmo imo. So now we have to have a cap in pvp but pve does not? Great awesome, kill the game for people who like to progress through pvp.
I guess every other game like CS, StarCraft, ect. and every other activity is dead for your because you can't have "gear progression".
"Hey I'm playing chess for so long agains other players, can I have an extra bishop for better progression?". "Can my zerlings start with 2nd tier upgrade, I'm starcraft vet. Or I will unsub."
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Counter Strike. "I'm playing for 3 hours a day for 3 years, I don't have any advantage over you besides skill. And I don't want it.".
StarCraft. "I'm playing for 3 hours a day for 3 years, I don't have any advantage over you besides skill. And I don't want it."
Chess: "I'm playing for 13 years, I don't have any advantage over you besides skill. And I don't want it.".
Sport: "I'm playing for X hours a day for Y years, I don't have any advantage over you besides skill. And I don't want it."
Whatever besides MMO: "I'm playing for X hours a day for Y years, I don't have any advantage over you besides skill. And I don't want it."
MMO with gear progression in PVP: "I'm playing for 8 hours a day for 3 monthes, gif me beter gear I wann to crush those lol noobs carebears zmg or why I was doingthat you just spit on me".
Why???
2nd question.
Counter Strike. -"Can I join this game" -"Sure!"
StarCraft - "Can I join the ladder?" -"You welcome!"
Some reallife activity: "Can I join?" "Yeah, go change your clothes"
MMO with gear progression in PVP:
- "Can I join?"
- "No you need to spend 120 hours to get all your abilities and then also spend 100+ hours before you get competitive gear. During that period you either will not be able to use all your abilities or will be rolfstomped by those so called "vets" ..."
Why???
What if Chess where like PVP in SWTOR
in PvP
Posted
Ok lets talk about drag racing. You bring your lovely car just to find that you can't beat "that guy". By faaaar margin. Yeah, his car is much better, you need to improve. Its ok so far.
But will it be funny for you to do one more round against him? He will beat you again, you can't win because of gear.
What about 10 rounds per day for 6 monthes? Will you enjoy that, will you PAY for that? In drag racing "improvement" is separated from "racing". You can't make your car better by racing again and again.
And now the funny part comes - once after monthes of loosing you were "rewarded" with car improvements and you are capable to competete with "that guy" - its suddenly skill based NASCAR lol.
So stupid...