Ich_Bin
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Posts posted by Ich_Bin
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Why are people still denying the facts? There is a reason for why DPS Operatives are not wanted in serious PvE and/or PvP groups: Other classes can do a better job.
It's not something that I want to rage about, but it's still a fact that you can't deny.
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Habe durch Zufall diesen Thread gefunden und dachte mir "Hey klasse, mein Server hat ja eine PvP Community die sich austauscht.". Nachdem ich dann hier ein paar Seiten überflogen habe, hat sich die anfängliche Freude dann allerdings schnell in Ernüchterung verwandelt...
Bei diesem ganzen Schwanzvergleich der hier stattfindet möchte ich mal auf eines hinweisen, um vielleicht den einen oder anderen wieder auf den Boden der Tatsachen zurückzuholen:
Ihr diskutiert hier über PvP auf einem PvE Server in einem relativ unbeliebten MMO. Es gibt garantiert kein Spiel, in dem man mit weniger Aufwand/Talent zu den besten Spielern zählen kann, als dieses. Wenn ihr den Anspruch habt, euch auf euer "Können" (das zu 99% aus gefarmter Ausrüstung und der Wahl einer starken Klasse und der Tatsache, dass ihr bereit seid, mehr Zeit in dieses Spiel zu investieren als 99% der restlichen Spieler) etwas einbilden zu wollen, dann hättet ihr evtl. ein Spiel auswählen sollen, in dem man auch entsprechend ernstzunehmende Konkurrenz vorfindet, nicht SWTOR auf einem PvE Server.
Allerdings habe ich sowieso fast das Gefühl, dass einige der Leute die sich hier was auf ihre "rated BG Erfahrung" einbilden (und jeden, der nicht regelmäßig rated spielt als unwürdig betrachten), ganz bewusst dieses Spiel ausgewählt haben, um ihr Ego möglichst leicht zu befriedigen. Entsprechend oft postet man dann auch hier im Forum und huldigt sich selbst und der eigenen Gilde (irgendwer muss es ja schließlich tun!!).
Richtig ekelig finde ich es dann allerdings, wenn man schon in der "besten PvP Gilde auf T3-M4" ist und einem auffällt, dass selbst das ständige Gewinnen das eigene Ego nicht ausreichend befriedigen kann --- und man dann zum Beispiel anfängt anderen Gilden vorzuschreiben, welche Kriterien sie zu erfüllen haben, damit sie sich als "PvP Gilde" bezeichnen dürfen, oder welche Klassen sie zu spielen haben (bzw. nicht spielen dürfen), wie sie zu listen haben etc.
Nur mal so eine ernstgemeinte Frage: Macht euch dieses Spiel überhaupt Spaß? Und mit "Spaß" meine ich nicht, das befriedigende Gefühl zu gewinnen, sondern den Spaß am Spiel selbst, der von Erfolg und Misserfolg unabhängig ist.
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well seeing as how both our servers have terrible populations, maybe we will get to go against eachother after the transfers. too many "big fish in small ponds" in the game right now. from what i can see, you were barely learning about sabo charge + flash bang around the time I was hitting valor 80 lol.
Oh I can play this game lets see....
When I queue with my guild I have roughly a win ratio of 98.785% give or take. And that is even though I have to carry 4 pugs AND the 3 players from my guild.
Btw I run the 0/0/0 spec and am wearing full Rakata. I am just that good at this game.
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Good teams will either avoid fighting next to your Kolto Cloud (just pull their next target out of it) and they will burst targets down so quickly, that HoT effects won't really matter.
AoE heal is only good against AoE and DoT damage. Single target burst damage counters it. Good teams will do single target burst and pick their opponents apart one by one.
Hybrid specs are very useful when running with a good premade. There are plenty of spots where it is for the most part useless to do any healing and doing dps is far superior. Having the option of switching between dps and healing is a big bonus.
Take Voidstar for example. Healers are incredibly important when being on the defending side. But when you are on the attacking team you should hardly do any healing at all because you need all the dps that you can get in order to kill your opponents quickly enough - and your team gets instant respawns anyways. As a hybrid specced Operative when I defend on Voidstar I do like 90% healing and 10% dps. When I am on the attacking team I will do probably 80% dps and 20% healing.
Another example would be capturing an objective in Novare/Civil War. Having the ability to burst down targets QUICKLY so you can take the objective before backup arrives is game deciding.
Also attacking/defending in Huttball. Attackers don't need to dps, but they need heals, guards, taunts and CC. Defenders need CC and dps, nothing else.
Bottom line: In a very good team there won't be any people that are exclusively healers and there won't be people that are exclusively dps (except for snipers/marauders ofc). People should switch between dps, guard, healing and whatever their class has to offer depending on the situation and regardless of spec.
The hybrid spec provides this the best as it offers 95% of the overall healing potential and adds a lot of burst dps.
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You should put them in round two of the scrapper tree for free UH. Then you should head to the respec vendor and change your spec immediatly.
Either full scrapper or my personal favorite 31/3/7
k thx bye
^ Don't listen to that guy. Hybrids rule in PvP. The AoE heal that you would get from putting 31 points into healing is only useful against bad opponents and will get completely worthless when playing against any decent team.
I would take both points out of Scrappy and put 1 more point into Sneaky (mobility is KEY), two points into Stopping Power and the last point either into Homegrown Pharmacology or Psych Meds (HP probably more useful when solo Q'ing, PM probably better when in a premade group).
Do NOT take Round Two like the poster above me suggested. With the hybrid spec you should have more than enough Upper Hands at all times to use Sucker Punch anyways. On occasion you will even be able to use it 4 times in a row which is something that even a fully specced Scrapper Scoundrel can only dream of.
If you skilled into Round Two you would often times generate multiple UHs through Sucher Punch and Slow Release Medpac while being at the UH cap anyways. So Round Two really is a waste for this spec.
On a side note: I would probably drop Anatomy Lessons and pick Smuggled Technology instead. When played right (make excessive use of Emergency Medpack), you should not run into any energy issues with this spec.
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All these teams of stunlocking Operatives made so many people unsub that most servers are dead by now.
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No. You have to be a bad operative if you don't outdamage deception assassins. It's not even a contest. Burst isn't bigger, isn't on demand, but yes, we have a finisher, thank christ, because we have no force left to use a normal attack.
I will stand by this fact: Op burst and sustained damage are both higher than deception assassin, at least at high level play. Tournaments confirm this, video footage confirms this, and I guarantee a combat log on a pvp test dummy will confirm this.
Well I can only say that I play both classes and you apparently do not. Yet you claim to know more about Operatives than I do...
The only reason why Operatives might have bigger dmg numbers on the warzone scoreboard is because of their AoE and their DoT (btw AoE damage is the ONLY thing that an Operative does better than an Assassin).
The Assassin's burst is WAY better than an Operative's burst. Claiming otherwise without even knowing the Operative class well is silly.
If you are doing less burst on your Assassin than an Operative, you are doing it very wrong.
Also whining about force problems is really ridiculous if you are playing an Assassin. Operatives get energy starved WAY easier and to them it's WAY harder to come back from that.
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The one good thing to keep in mind when reading the forums on any class is to not really listen to a lot of the complaining until you try out the class for yourself. Happy people wont come on the forums to tell you how happy they are with their class, but unhappy people will do that day in and day out. Personally, I love my Op and he's one of my favorite classes to use. True, hitting level 50 is tough for anyone. I just played my first warzone since hitting 50 and it didn't go too well but I didn't really mind since I stood out as the ungeared healer, so people zoned in on me like nothing else. Still, its a fun class to play and you shouldn't put too much stock in all the complaining here.
The main thing to remember is that an Op is mostly for support, which is something a lot of people seem to forget. A good player can still rack up the DPS well, but it will be hard for any Op to go 1on1 with any other class, all things being equal. You'll find your much more effective in a group and helping the other guys wear down opponents, whether that means stabbing from behind or being the bantha fodder. If you want to be the guy who just bashes everything in, be like all the FotM players and roll a Sent/Marauder.
On a side note, the negativity in the Op forums has dropped big time since 1.2 hit. If you want to see /real/ QQing, head over to the Commando and Mercenary forums!
I think you probably missed the point. I have never read any complaints on these forums about Operative healing being bad ever since 1.2 has been released. Operative healing is simply amazing and we probably all agree on that.
So if you say the class is fine and then say that you play a healer, it doesn't really mean much.
Also I'd like to add that as a dps Operative, your strength is actually 1v1. The class is pretty bad in group fights but it is one of the best solo classes in the game.
Probably the only thing that we are still best at is taking a node in Civil War solo. And we are able to defend it solo for quite a while.
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No class is overpowered if you work well in as a team.
This sort of comment is only partly true. Sadly it is being overused as an attempt to smother any reasonable discussion about game balance. You should read the comment that rotatofur posted two posts above yours.
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Operative is better against weak teams, but Merc is better against strong teams.
^ this
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Ok that's it. I'm rolling a scoundrel tonight. I have to see this for myself. There has to be SOMETHING useful about the dps scoundrel.
The thing is that in order to really see the weaknesses of the class, you would have to play one at lvl 50. As far as I can tell the class is doing fine in the 10-49 bracket for the most part.
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Playing any class at 50 is frustrating when you have no gear and everyone else does. Right now anyone just dinging 50 is probably going to be a behind the curve when it comes to gear. This is not something that is specific to operatives, imo.
It's not specific to Operatives but it is much more noticeable for them.
My Assassin was doing great after she turned lvl 50 (probably even better than my equipped Concealment Operative). And my Powertech who just turned 50 a week ago is doing fine, too.
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So far indeed im enjoying it...I love the stab thing...But what alarms me is the fact that after reaching 50, compared to other classes (both factions) I might be kissing the ground most of the time most specialy in WZs.
I am wearing full BM gear and 5 Warhero pieces. And I can tell you that Concealment is tough, but it's possible to succeed.
However when I see fresh dps Operatives and dps Scoundrels in warzones they are really no threat at all. Unless they get the jump on me from stealth when I am below 30% HP they have literally no chance of coming close to killing me because they just do so little damage. They are like mosquitos: sort of annoying but no real threat. And they die very quickly.
Playing warzones with a fresh lvl 50 Operative must be very tough and frustrating and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone (unless of course you play a healer).
So if you really love the class and want to play it if I were you I would respec to healing the second I hit lvl 50. Obiously buy a full set of recruit gear and slowly farm warzone commendations until you have a full set of Battlemaster gear. Then you can probably respec back to Concealment but it is still going to be very challenging.
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Let's not talk about marauders, that messes up the whole comparison, because everybody knows they take the dps cake. Operative burst and sustained dps is better than assassin, by a fair margin. I have 4 high damage attacks, but I can only use maul once, shock once, discharge once, and assassinate once, within a burst window. At most that will stack up to 16k damage if im fighting a total idiot with no cc, or defensive cds, and that's if I crit on all 4. I also don't frontload, which means the opponent can see my burst coming a mile away and take appropriate counter measures. Then I have around 8-10 seconds before they are off cd, but I am out of force, so it doesn't matter. I auto-attack until my force regens and then I try again.
It's easy to observe in PvE, and It's easy to see the dps numbers at the end of the warzone. Since both deception sins and operatives are single target dmg classes, the average op will outdamage a deception sin.
I suggest trying to play other classes because your perception is very off.
You should play an Operative before inventing theories about their burst potential.
I can tell you that I play both (Assassin and Operative) and their single target burst damage is not even in the same league. The Assassin is far better. Their burst is bigger, on demand and they also have a finisher, while the Operative's burst damage is frontloaded.
Possibly bigger dmg numbers on the warzone scoreboard usually come due to the Operative's AoE (Orbital Strike, Grenade) and DoT damage. The Operative does better AoE damage while the Assassin has better burst, better survivability, better utility and of course better sustained damage.
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Depends on how you define "sucks".
- They are the hardest dps class to play, and doing tiny mistakes or getting knockbacks can result in big dps drops
- Even if played to their full potential they do the least dps out of all classes
- They don't offer group utility
- They are able to clear all content
- They are great at clearing trash
- They can provide off-heals (which aren't usually needed though)
I wouldn't say they "suck" and I also wouldn't call them a "burden to the team" because their dps is not THAT far away from the other classes. But if you want to play a Scoundrel you will need to put in much more effort than you would have to with any other class.
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Tougher to play: Operative
Stronger in the hands of a skilled player: Assassin
It seems like a contradiction but it is true. Even the best dps-Operative players cannot come close to what Assassins (even if not played perfectly) can do.
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1. See point of bubble in my post
2. Different class concepts. Like I said the sage is a sustained dps with infininte ressources whereas the Pyro is a burst spec which reaches its ressource limits often- I haven't payed a class where you have to spend as much GCDs with autoattack simply due to ressource management reasons. If you want to burst roll a burst class. I don't complain that my Vanguard can't heal either
Actually yes there are far more sages/sorcs in my WZs than PTs/Vanguards. I am usually the only one on both sides. I also find it funny how you keep jumping wildly from argument to argument (now you bring range/melee into the fray, amazing...) once you can't hold your old one up.
If you bring up the Sorc bubble then you would have to bring up the Powertech's def CDs and so forth.
"Different class concepts" <-- Very true, no argument here. But you were the one who was comparing the two classes in the first place and I only replied to that. If you want to keep it really simple I will just say this: In the current state of the game Pyro PTs are insanely OP and Sorcs are well balanced.
You are not asking for healing on your Vanguard because you don't need it as you will kill most opponents before they can even do any significant damage to you.
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The "metal" guy gets 15% more reduction against kinetic and energy than the "paper" guy (35% for PT in dps stance to 20% for sage).
When you just want to look at the WZ numbers a wellplayed sage can easily put out exactly the same and more damage- its in AoE and dot damage though not in burst.
1. That difference in damage reduction is HUGE. There is a reason why Sages/Sorcs are always your primary targets when playing a dps class.
2. Burst damage is infinitely more useful than DoT or AoE damage (DoT/AoE = healer's dream ...... Burst = healer's nightmare)
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Yes ! The delayed TD is great to burst people when timed right, I totally agree ! Don't you feel something wrong with bioch ? The problem is : when you use bioch you will get 1350 power, it is insane. PT has 90% armor penetration for RS and will benefit more from this buff than any other class. Use the red buff and you will have 36% expertise, you will kill people in 3s. Pyro spec is not the prbblem, expertise and bioch are !
You play operative ? So you know it was the same thing. Operative using bioch could hit for 8000 dmg (when it was possible to stack bioch buff) .
The problem here is to solve this issue without killing pyro spec (PT and merc) and AP tree. I really don't think nerfing the dmg is the solution.
I have always said (even in this thread I think) that the usage of Biochem in warzones should be forbidden and that it screws up class balance.
Back in January, Operatives had the best burst potential in the game but only using Biochem and stacking Surge made them truly broken (the funny thing is that back then I was not using Biochem on my Operative because I thought it was lame - but after several nerfs I was forced into using it in order to remain viable). It is the exact same thing for Pyro PTs right now.
So yeah, I would be fine if Biochem would be forbidden BEFORE Powertechs get nerfed in order to see what the class balance would look like then. But I doubt Bioware would ever do that.
So I am only stating what I think is broken in this game and not trying to offer any specific solutions, because that is up to the devs anyways.
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Disagree.
Scrappers are fine for hide defend turrets in Alderaan/NC, and for plant bombs on doors in Void.
On Huttball, yeah, scrappers mostly crap.
Assassins/Shadows can still do it better.
Nobody is saying that Scrappers cannot do anything useful, but the argument is that they do nothing that other classes can't do much better.
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Power Tech have locked me down and killed me in under 10 seconds.
As a supposed to be Glass Cannon Sage there is no Sage that can lock down and kill in 10 seconds.
So your excuse that a heavy armor class that is much harder to kill then a Sage should have higher burst?
Like I said before this is backwards. Higher armor means better survival and less damage, not more of both.
Well the guy that mentioned dot kiting certainly had a point in that a dot kiting Sage can have better survivability than a Pyro PT in some situations (of course once they get CCed and focused, the Sage will go down much quicker).
However the problem is that those dots (and basically every damage that the Sage does) are EASIELY outhealed/nullified while the burst damage that a Pyro PT can do is impossible to outheal in many situations.
Lots of people are complaining about healers becoming useless in rated warzones. The problem is that if you are facing a coordinated team with two Pyro PTs they will burst their targets down so quickly that no healer can ever safe them.
When you have Pyro PTs on your team there is no more strategy involved. You don't need to kill the healers on the opposing team first. You don't need to interrupt their heals. Basically you don't have to pick your targets carefully at all.
All you gotta do is someone selects ANY target and calls it on voice chat. That target is dead almost immediately. Then you move on to the next and so forth and there is nothing your opponents can do about it.
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We would need the ability and damage breakdown, and exact spec used to do any real analysis. KyoMamoru has already shown a few pages back what a difference these seemingly small changes can make (as you well know).
That's certainly true, but even he didn't do nearly as much dps as most other dps classes with that amount of optimization can do.
Also we all know that Operative dps is probably the least forgiving class. A small error on our part or a knockback can screw up our rotation and dps real bad. So I think dps parses that have been achieved using a 100% optimal damage rotation are impressive, but they yield no results in comparing actual dps done during a raid.
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Just a question : what class do you play and are you using bioch ?
BTW : It is not 18k dmg in 3 seconds because the TD was delayed and used earlier. Not our fault if one of our stronger spell hit after a delay of 3s....
It's not your "fault" that you do insane burst at all. Noone said that. We are just arguing about whether it is balanced or not.
However it is a great advantage to have skills that do delayed damage because if timed right, it improves your burst potential significantly and makes healing / shielding / guarding / taunting / use of warzone medpacks impossible in some situations and thus takes away from the complexity of the game.
To answer your question: I am playing Tank Assassin, DPS Operative and Pyro PT. Biochem on all three characters.
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1420ish DPS fully buffed, stimed and running optimized gear. Disapointing....
I gotta agree. 1422 certainly is a very good result for an Operative... But other dps classes can do much more in that sort of gear + stim.
Rated Bgs [T3-M4]
in T3-M4
Posted
Es gibt doch für dieses Problem eine recht simple Lösung:
Beruft einfach mal einen "RBG Gipfel" ein, bei dem sich jeweils ein Vertreter jeder RBG Gilde des Servers im Teamspeak treffen und einen vorher festgelegten Katalog an Regeln/Fragen (z.B. 1. Darf man Schleicher in der Huttball Endzone anhüpfen? 2. Ab wievielen dd PTs wirds "lame"? 3. ...) besprechen und anschließend darüber abstimmen.
Heraus käme dann ein relativ übersichtliches Regelwerk à la "Ethische Grundregeln zum RBG auf T3-M4". Falls sich dann hinterher trotzdem eine Gilde über die vereinbarten Regeln hinwegsetzt, verliert sie halt jeglichen Respekt der PvP Gemeinde des Servers, das sollte wenn ich das hier so lese doch Abschreckung genug sein.
Denn bisher stellen sich zu viele Fragen die man nicht objektiv beantworten kann:
Wenn man 3 PTs als lame empfindet, wieso sind dann nicht schon 2 PTs lame?
Und wieso ist es nicht genauso verwerflich, wenn man ohne Sabo DD und Merc DD listet (denn damit zwingt man genau genommen die Konkurrenz dazu, ebenfalls ohne diese Klassen zu listen)?
Der Punkt ist, man könnte hier halt ewig diskutieren bzw. flamen, ohne auch nur einen Zentimeter weiter zu kommen, denn es gibt für solche Themen nunmal keine klar definierten ethischen Grenzen - doch das ließe sich doch durchaus ändern, oder nicht?